-
Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).
Reagent to test for DMT in plants?
- Thread starter acolon_5
- Start date
As the resident analytical chemist that doesn't sound like an easy proposition.
I see no easy way short of small scale extractions, clean up and either GC or LC-MS for identification and quatification.
No, I don't know how you would do that without a full fledged lab.
Don't worry thought you can collecct all the samples, do the extractions and test them all on my systems over Christmas break while everyone else in on vacation
On another note, sometimes makes me wonder how the ancient indian shaman figured out both the DMT containing plants and the MAOI containing plants out of the millions of plant species. Maybe somebody(thing) told them
I see no easy way short of small scale extractions, clean up and either GC or LC-MS for identification and quatification.
No, I don't know how you would do that without a full fledged lab.
Don't worry thought you can collecct all the samples, do the extractions and test them all on my systems over Christmas break while everyone else in on vacation
On another note, sometimes makes me wonder how the ancient indian shaman figured out both the DMT containing plants and the MAOI containing plants out of the millions of plant species. Maybe somebody(thing) told them
I thought that either Trout or Ott had written about a simple agent that he made that he used to test plants for DMT or maybe it was just for tryptamines. I tried to go back and look for it but couldn't find it on the web anywhere.
I would be really interested in reading about that.
Its completly possible that some chemical reaction or antibody kit has been devised but without a market such things usually aren't to reliable.
Where is Benzyme to ring in on this??
Its completly possible that some chemical reaction or antibody kit has been devised but without a market such things usually aren't to reliable.
Where is Benzyme to ring in on this??
there are a number of reagents that are specific to alkaloids that can be tested on a simple TLC plate. there is probably also some reagent specific to indole containing compounds but one would have to do some digging around in the literature. look up on sight lsd testing kits they might exist. the reaction may take advantage of the indole ring but i would not be sure.
one thing that would work nicely is to get some reference spice and just compare crude plant extracts with it on TLC with draggondorfs reagent (there might be a couple others). its not fool proof but its a start.
the best way of course is to use analytical equipment like GC-MS or HPLC but alas...
one thing that would work nicely is to get some reference spice and just compare crude plant extracts with it on TLC with draggondorfs reagent (there might be a couple others). its not fool proof but its a start.
the best way of course is to use analytical equipment like GC-MS or HPLC but alas...
marquis reagent, but it's not specific to dmt. it tests for tertiary amines.
The Use of Marquis Reagent - This reagent is prepared as two components, i.e.
(i) eight to ten drops of 40% formaldehyde in 10 ml of glacial acetic acid, and
(ii) concentrated sulfuric acid (note that this is slightly different to the system
used to test for the presence of amphetamines and opiates). A small amount of
material to be tested is placed on a spotting plate, followed by one drop of the
formaldehyde solution and two drops of the sulfuric acid. If either psilocin or
psilocybin is present, an orange colour will develop.
swim once used it to test a product for psilocin. it did indeed turn from clear to orange
another chemical test is the Erlich test:
The Use of Erhlich’s Reagent - This reagent is prepared by dissolving 1 g of
p-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde in 10 ml of methanol, followed by the addition
of 10 ml of orthophosphoric acid. The fungal material is extracted as described
above and two drops of the extract are placed on a spotting plate. A negative
control and a known sample (positive control) of drug are used in addition to the
material being tested. The samples are dried either on a warm heating surface
or under a lamp, and then residue redissolved in two drops of Erhlich’s reagent.
Development of a violet to violet-grey colour indicates the presence of indoles
and hence the potential presence of psilocin in the sample material.
since psilocin is so closely related to dmt, these procedures may be used to test its presence in a sample, most likely with identical results.
The Use of Marquis Reagent - This reagent is prepared as two components, i.e.
(i) eight to ten drops of 40% formaldehyde in 10 ml of glacial acetic acid, and
(ii) concentrated sulfuric acid (note that this is slightly different to the system
used to test for the presence of amphetamines and opiates). A small amount of
material to be tested is placed on a spotting plate, followed by one drop of the
formaldehyde solution and two drops of the sulfuric acid. If either psilocin or
psilocybin is present, an orange colour will develop.
swim once used it to test a product for psilocin. it did indeed turn from clear to orange
another chemical test is the Erlich test:
The Use of Erhlich’s Reagent - This reagent is prepared by dissolving 1 g of
p-dimethylaminobenzaldehyde in 10 ml of methanol, followed by the addition
of 10 ml of orthophosphoric acid. The fungal material is extracted as described
above and two drops of the extract are placed on a spotting plate. A negative
control and a known sample (positive control) of drug are used in addition to the
material being tested. The samples are dried either on a warm heating surface
or under a lamp, and then residue redissolved in two drops of Erhlich’s reagent.
Development of a violet to violet-grey colour indicates the presence of indoles
and hence the potential presence of psilocin in the sample material.
since psilocin is so closely related to dmt, these procedures may be used to test its presence in a sample, most likely with identical results.
I could see testing a pure powder with that (Marquis Reagent) but if you were testing just general plant extracts with that and it reacted with tertiary amines it seems like many things could light up your assay but you would be no closer to actually knowing it it had DMT or not.
But your not really exposing its ability to test plant extracts I guess.
I like the TLC idea though, you could set up large scale screens with TLC and then take any good looking extracts in GC or LC-MS. The issue would be enrichment maybe, unless you enriched I would wonder how well TLC would work on something at 1% or less. Any TLC experts?
But your not really exposing its ability to test plant extracts I guess.
I like the TLC idea though, you could set up large scale screens with TLC and then take any good looking extracts in GC or LC-MS. The issue would be enrichment maybe, unless you enriched I would wonder how well TLC would work on something at 1% or less. Any TLC experts?
I'd do a quick acetic acid extraction on the plant material (assuming dmt is the primary alkaloid), like simmer the bark in AcOH for a few mins, then use that in the marquis test 
(it turns a distinctive color, easily distinguishable)
dmt is quite soluble in acetic acid.
(it turns a distinctive color, easily distinguishable)dmt is quite soluble in acetic acid.
But what do you think the false positive rate on that would be?
Would ever plant light it up?
Sounds like an experiment that needs to be done but you would really need MS backup
to test your hits. Damn we could write a really nice paper on that, test 1,000 plants
from across the globe. Hmm I wonder if you just published such a thing with no funding how much shit you would get it from various employeers?
Would ever plant light it up?
Sounds like an experiment that needs to be done but you would really need MS backup
to test your hits. Damn we could write a really nice paper on that, test 1,000 plants
from across the globe. Hmm I wonder if you just published such a thing with no funding how much shit you would get it from various employeers?
haha, your guess is as good as mine. it would make a neat paper.
the Ehrlich test in particular would identify the presence of indole compounds, but in plants, those could be anything (these plants also metabolize tryptophan)
the marquis (as I mentioned) tests for tertiary amines. any terminal dimethylamino group would be exposed
I think TLC values are listed somewhere, probably by Johnathan Ott or Dennis McKenna. they did those quantitative analytical tests of dmt in the 70's
the Ehrlich test in particular would identify the presence of indole compounds, but in plants, those could be anything (these plants also metabolize tryptophan)
the marquis (as I mentioned) tests for tertiary amines. any terminal dimethylamino group would be exposed
I think TLC values are listed somewhere, probably by Johnathan Ott or Dennis McKenna. they did those quantitative analytical tests of dmt in the 70's
It’s actually quite sad, I have all the equipment (TLC, GC-MS, LC-MS), man power and money to do this paper and I am sure we could get people to collect plant samples from around the world and ship them to me.
I think it would be a great publication but I would most likely be fired for it.
Oh well maybe someday I will be in a position with more freedom.
If I ever change positions and this community is still intake I will bring the idea back up, it could be the first joint publication of the nexus
I think it would be a great publication but I would most likely be fired for it.
Oh well maybe someday I will be in a position with more freedom.
If I ever change positions and this community is still intake I will bring the idea back up, it could be the first joint publication of the nexus
yea its a pain when legality gets in the way of research. anyway TLC can be quite sensitive.
check out that reagent seems to be specific for indoles.
check out that reagent seems to be specific for indoles.
:? dmt doesn't seem to be in there
excellent find, though
excellent find, though
I think we as a collective (DMT-Nexus) should make it a goal in the next ten years to do a true scientific mapping of DMT in local floras across the planet and publish the results.
Goals are good 8)
Goals are good 8)
time and lack of samples is my friends only issue. the equipment and rights to work on such things is there.
Hmmm....as the molecular biologist around here I would suggest testing for the presence of tertiary indoleamines using a different route; this involves assaying the end-products of MAO substrates. But just to make myself more clear:
A. make a preparation of monoamine oxidase (can be overexpressed and purified in bacteria, but it can also be prepared as a crude extract from fresh liver tissues - people have been doing that such crude MAO extracts to assay their activity or inhibition for some time now. Bovine liver should be easy to find)
B. make a crude acid extraction of the plant material, then neutralise it to ph~7
C. add some crude MAO extract to the above preparation and let the MAO degrade any (if any!) tertiary indoleamines present in the plant extract. (note that the above neutralisation step was performed so as to maximise the MAO enzyme efficiency - MAO does not work very well in acidic pHs)
D. the degradation product of any tertiary indoleamines by MAO produces the gas dimethylamine. Now, the only problem is to detect dimethylamine. The easiest way I can propose is by nose because its smell is quite pungent, something like rotten fish with hints of ammonia. Unmistakeably disgusting, it reminds me the utterly disgusting smell of tetramethylethylenediamine
So if one's plant crude extract ends up smelling like rotten fish after the addition of a MAO preparation, it is a good indication of tertiary indoleamines presence.
(EDIT: actually a friend of mine is dying to try that out!)
A. make a preparation of monoamine oxidase (can be overexpressed and purified in bacteria, but it can also be prepared as a crude extract from fresh liver tissues - people have been doing that such crude MAO extracts to assay their activity or inhibition for some time now. Bovine liver should be easy to find)
B. make a crude acid extraction of the plant material, then neutralise it to ph~7
C. add some crude MAO extract to the above preparation and let the MAO degrade any (if any!) tertiary indoleamines present in the plant extract. (note that the above neutralisation step was performed so as to maximise the MAO enzyme efficiency - MAO does not work very well in acidic pHs)
D. the degradation product of any tertiary indoleamines by MAO produces the gas dimethylamine. Now, the only problem is to detect dimethylamine. The easiest way I can propose is by nose because its smell is quite pungent, something like rotten fish with hints of ammonia. Unmistakeably disgusting, it reminds me the utterly disgusting smell of tetramethylethylenediamine
So if one's plant crude extract ends up smelling like rotten fish after the addition of a MAO preparation, it is a good indication of tertiary indoleamines presence.
(EDIT: actually a friend of mine is dying to try that out!)