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Reflections on P. cubensis and other species
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You're too flattering!
doubledog
Titanium Teammate
I have no experience with cyans (eventhough they seem to grow here), I only know online reports. Most cases of reported wlp is from cyans afaik. Here WLP is very rare, actually I've learned about it only few years ago and only after that I was finally able to explain some of my strange experiences with woodlovers from years ago. It would be great for me to know about it sooner as it would most likely eliminated my fear that I've consumed some poisonous mushrooms together with psilocybe that day.
Yes, it seems to be sensitive molecule as it never occured to me with dried shrooms, but surely I cannot comment whether it's effect of aeruginascin or some other tryptamine like norbaeocystin or similar.
Sounds like WLP phenomenon can be overcome by heating or drying. Perhaps woodlovers can be seen similar to amanitas in this regard - needing drying or heating to minimize unpleasant components. Those who have access to these mushrooms, feel free to make controlled experiments.
Cyans, azures, serbica, allenii, subs etc are all the same species according to Alistair Mctaggart…the Australian mycologist who is claiming they are all subs that escaped from oz…and what we are calling species are just varieties of subs you can find in Australia.
This is why I am interested in ppl who use these species around the world, and I wonder what Stamets and others have to say about it.
If I can find Alistairs talk on it later I will post it but it’s on YouTube somewhere I think in an entheogenesis Australis video.
This is why I am interested in ppl who use these species around the world, and I wonder what Stamets and others have to say about it.
If I can find Alistairs talk on it later I will post it but it’s on YouTube somewhere I think in an entheogenesis Australis video.
I have experienced paralysis with dry shrooms also but not with tea that I can recall.
doubledog
Titanium Teammate
I forage (and discuss with other foragers) local woodlovers here in central/eastern Europe for 25 years in various different localities and my opinion is that it is all just one species with lot of local varieties. I use official naming just for very general purposes, for entheogenic mushroom foraging it does not work very well.
I would love to see woodlovers from US or AUS.
This doesn't seem to take into account the differences between UK and north American Ps. cyanescens, as noted by Stamets, but I'd best take a look at McTaggart's evidence I guess.
bezevo
Established member
LOOK up the work of mycoligist Alan Rockefeller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_RockefellerAlan .. he has done extensive sience based reasherch and genetic testing . . and his results disagee some what with Mctaggarts opinon hypothis ... but do your own reading of the the facts and opinions .
Hi peeps,
@Jamie01 - I'm sorry to hear about the ulcerative colitis, but regarding this, given that it is a chronic inflammatory condition, you might be interested to know that P. natalensis has been found to harbour other compounds with anti-inflammatory effects (with a few anecdotal accounts on the web from people with inflammatory health conditions reporting benefits from ingesting this species). However, somewhat confusingly, this is before this species was distinguished from P. ochraceocentrata, when previously they were mistakenly lumped together as the same species (more on this here). So while this study paper is referring to P. natalensis, I'm pretty sure they are in fact referring to P. ochraceocentrata (spores of the 'real' P. natalensis have only very recently started to make their way into cultivator circles, but it doesn't appear to be very potent (with initial analyses suggesting low P. cubensis potency ballpark) with a much longer fruiting time, so P. ochraceocentrata may be the more promising species for cultivators. That's cool you're also growing lion's mane, this is also a species I cultivate, teaching the odd workshop on how to do this.
Of the various wood-lovers, I've sampled P. cyanescens (off a patch I stumbled across one winter a stone's throw from where I was living at the time), and P. azurescens. The P. cyanescens were fine mushrooms (I resonate with your description of them providing a clean fast blast off) but the P. azurescens were on a different level. While most mushrooms feel earthy to me, these felt like they had escaped some interdimensional Elf scientist's lab or something. An electric body feel at high doses, where it feels like your nervous system has been plugged into the Gaian energy socket. Fast moving, very colourful and immersive visuals. On these mushrooms - despite attempts to journey inwards - I was much more interested in exploring the outside world. They could be deeply ecstatic. One friend who doesn't generally react well to mushrooms and tends to have hard quite gruelling trips found the P. azurescens to put her in a loving, light filled and connected state. Another friend was sceptical that different species of mushroom differ in vibe...until he sampled P. azurescens. I've seen the paper claiming that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens are both descended from P. subaeruginosa from Australia, and that the former two species are actually different morphs of a singular species. Not sure I'm fully on-board with this theory though...while mushrooms can be polymophic so differences in appearance alone cannot be relied on (although P. cyanescens and P. azurescens are distinct in appearance), they also have different microhabitat preferences - and (much more subjective) - elicit wildly distinct experiences when consumed (in my experience anyway). Wood-lover paralysis is obviously something to be aware of, even if its rare (more of an issue when combined with setting as you describe, due to the risk of exposure). In case it's of interest, no cases of wood-lover paralysis have yet been reported in association with the consumption of wood-loving species P. aztecorum or P. niveotropicalis (a warm weather wood-lover).
@doubledog - I agree that fresh is best...there is an extra fullness, richness and sparkle or myco mojo to fresh mushrooms over dried, most (but not all) of my most profound mushroom experiences have come through consuming them fresh (one notable exception is my one and only high dose dried P. subtropicalis experience). I think it's really interesting what you say about sensitivity to differences in effects profile between species likely varying across individuals.
@dithyramb - that's interesting regarding your experience with liberty caps, and Mexicana musings. P. mexicana has been described as the "Mexican liberty cap", and mycologist John Allen has sampled both species and described them have a similar tranquil effect. In addition to apparently being Maria Sabina's favourite, apparently the Zapotec Indians in Mexico give this particular give this mushroom to their children as they view it as the friendliest and most forgiving.
Regarding P. subtropicalis, it has a rather tangled taxonomic backstory. It was previously classified as P. hoogshagenii var. convexa...and before this, as P. semperviva (which translates to “ever-living,” due to its tenacious and long-lived nature when it comes to fruiting, being capable of producing many flushes over an extended time frame potentially). It is placed in Section Zapotecorum, along with P. zapotecorum and P. ingeli.
On the topic of mushroom species held in high regard by Indigenous groups in Mexico - aside from P. mexicana and P. subtropicalis - two others worthy of mention here are P. caerulescens and P. zapotecorum. P. caerulescens is considered one of the likely candidate species of teonanácatl, or god’s flesh of the Aztecs, and is still used ceremonially today, being held in high esteem by a number of Indigenous groups in Mexico and Western psilonauts that have sampled it (also the species R. Gordon Wasson and Tim Leary first experienced in Mexico). One experienced cultivator recommends the "La Montaña" culture as being among the easier and faster fruiting to grow of this species for anyone interested.
P. zapotecorum is another mushroom species held in very high regard by Indigenous groups such as the Mazatec, Mixtec, and Zapotec (from whose name it is derived). The culture "Popocatépetl Volcano" comes recommended as a particularly tenacious one better suited to beginner growers of this species...this cultivator even succeeded in fruiting it in Cubensis fruiting conditions. P. zapotecorum can be highly potent. This species also tends to be consistently held in very regard by Western psilonauts that have sampled it.
@Jamie01 - I'm sorry to hear about the ulcerative colitis, but regarding this, given that it is a chronic inflammatory condition, you might be interested to know that P. natalensis has been found to harbour other compounds with anti-inflammatory effects (with a few anecdotal accounts on the web from people with inflammatory health conditions reporting benefits from ingesting this species). However, somewhat confusingly, this is before this species was distinguished from P. ochraceocentrata, when previously they were mistakenly lumped together as the same species (more on this here). So while this study paper is referring to P. natalensis, I'm pretty sure they are in fact referring to P. ochraceocentrata (spores of the 'real' P. natalensis have only very recently started to make their way into cultivator circles, but it doesn't appear to be very potent (with initial analyses suggesting low P. cubensis potency ballpark) with a much longer fruiting time, so P. ochraceocentrata may be the more promising species for cultivators. That's cool you're also growing lion's mane, this is also a species I cultivate, teaching the odd workshop on how to do this.
Of the various wood-lovers, I've sampled P. cyanescens (off a patch I stumbled across one winter a stone's throw from where I was living at the time), and P. azurescens. The P. cyanescens were fine mushrooms (I resonate with your description of them providing a clean fast blast off) but the P. azurescens were on a different level. While most mushrooms feel earthy to me, these felt like they had escaped some interdimensional Elf scientist's lab or something. An electric body feel at high doses, where it feels like your nervous system has been plugged into the Gaian energy socket. Fast moving, very colourful and immersive visuals. On these mushrooms - despite attempts to journey inwards - I was much more interested in exploring the outside world. They could be deeply ecstatic. One friend who doesn't generally react well to mushrooms and tends to have hard quite gruelling trips found the P. azurescens to put her in a loving, light filled and connected state. Another friend was sceptical that different species of mushroom differ in vibe...until he sampled P. azurescens. I've seen the paper claiming that P. azurescens and P. cyanescens are both descended from P. subaeruginosa from Australia, and that the former two species are actually different morphs of a singular species. Not sure I'm fully on-board with this theory though...while mushrooms can be polymophic so differences in appearance alone cannot be relied on (although P. cyanescens and P. azurescens are distinct in appearance), they also have different microhabitat preferences - and (much more subjective) - elicit wildly distinct experiences when consumed (in my experience anyway). Wood-lover paralysis is obviously something to be aware of, even if its rare (more of an issue when combined with setting as you describe, due to the risk of exposure). In case it's of interest, no cases of wood-lover paralysis have yet been reported in association with the consumption of wood-loving species P. aztecorum or P. niveotropicalis (a warm weather wood-lover).
@doubledog - I agree that fresh is best...there is an extra fullness, richness and sparkle or myco mojo to fresh mushrooms over dried, most (but not all) of my most profound mushroom experiences have come through consuming them fresh (one notable exception is my one and only high dose dried P. subtropicalis experience). I think it's really interesting what you say about sensitivity to differences in effects profile between species likely varying across individuals.
@dithyramb - that's interesting regarding your experience with liberty caps, and Mexicana musings. P. mexicana has been described as the "Mexican liberty cap", and mycologist John Allen has sampled both species and described them have a similar tranquil effect. In addition to apparently being Maria Sabina's favourite, apparently the Zapotec Indians in Mexico give this particular give this mushroom to their children as they view it as the friendliest and most forgiving.
Regarding P. subtropicalis, it has a rather tangled taxonomic backstory. It was previously classified as P. hoogshagenii var. convexa...and before this, as P. semperviva (which translates to “ever-living,” due to its tenacious and long-lived nature when it comes to fruiting, being capable of producing many flushes over an extended time frame potentially). It is placed in Section Zapotecorum, along with P. zapotecorum and P. ingeli.
On the topic of mushroom species held in high regard by Indigenous groups in Mexico - aside from P. mexicana and P. subtropicalis - two others worthy of mention here are P. caerulescens and P. zapotecorum. P. caerulescens is considered one of the likely candidate species of teonanácatl, or god’s flesh of the Aztecs, and is still used ceremonially today, being held in high esteem by a number of Indigenous groups in Mexico and Western psilonauts that have sampled it (also the species R. Gordon Wasson and Tim Leary first experienced in Mexico). One experienced cultivator recommends the "La Montaña" culture as being among the easier and faster fruiting to grow of this species for anyone interested.
P. zapotecorum is another mushroom species held in very high regard by Indigenous groups such as the Mazatec, Mixtec, and Zapotec (from whose name it is derived). The culture "Popocatépetl Volcano" comes recommended as a particularly tenacious one better suited to beginner growers of this species...this cultivator even succeeded in fruiting it in Cubensis fruiting conditions. P. zapotecorum can be highly potent. This species also tends to be consistently held in very regard by Western psilonauts that have sampled it.
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Hi All,
I stumbled across this blog via a post on Reddit, by a psilonaut who felt compelled to grow and sample a range of different psilocybin mushroom species, after seeing this post comparing P. cubensis with P. ochraceocentrata (formerly P. natalensis). Obviously these are just the opinions of a single person, which they themselves caution should be taken with a pinch of salt. Below I'm pasting their disclaimer and warning, and some relevant excerpts from their blog posts, which I will link below:
Disclaimer: These are my experiences and my opinions. I have no idea what kind of experience you would have if you ate the same mushrooms as me. My experiences are also not in any way scientific. Dosages varied wildly, I’ve eaten some species more often than others, and I gained experience with psychedelics in general as I progressed from one species to the next.
Warning: If you want to experience these mushrooms free of expectations, proceed with caution. Psychedelic experiences are highly influenced by set, setting, and expectation.
Different species of psilocybin mushrooms produce distinctive trips. This has been true to such a degree in one particular case that the first time I tried it, if I didn’t know better, I would’ve sworn it was a different substance altogether. I believe that science will eventually catch up and support what exotic cultivators have known for years: not all mushrooms are equal.
Skeptics claim that psilocybin is psilocybin, and the subjective effects from one mushroom to another are simply due to differences in potency rather than any pharmacological difference from one species to the next. I believe that anyone who holds this belief has not sampled many species of psychedelic mushrooms (and note that I am speaking about species of mushrooms, not strains - it is perhaps true that most of the various psilocybe cubensis strains available, such as Golden Teacher, Amazonian, B+, and so on, are more or less interchangeable with each other.)
The species I have eaten and highest dosages include the following:
Exotic Psilocybin Mushroom Species Reviews Part I: Echelons (minimal spoilers)
Exotic Psilocybin Mushroom Species Reviews Part II: Descriptives (some spoilers)
"I Am Unworthy to Exist in the Same Universe as Psilocybe Mexicana" - Ps. Mexicana Review & Trip Report
I stumbled across this blog via a post on Reddit, by a psilonaut who felt compelled to grow and sample a range of different psilocybin mushroom species, after seeing this post comparing P. cubensis with P. ochraceocentrata (formerly P. natalensis). Obviously these are just the opinions of a single person, which they themselves caution should be taken with a pinch of salt. Below I'm pasting their disclaimer and warning, and some relevant excerpts from their blog posts, which I will link below:
Disclaimer: These are my experiences and my opinions. I have no idea what kind of experience you would have if you ate the same mushrooms as me. My experiences are also not in any way scientific. Dosages varied wildly, I’ve eaten some species more often than others, and I gained experience with psychedelics in general as I progressed from one species to the next.
Warning: If you want to experience these mushrooms free of expectations, proceed with caution. Psychedelic experiences are highly influenced by set, setting, and expectation.
Different species of psilocybin mushrooms produce distinctive trips. This has been true to such a degree in one particular case that the first time I tried it, if I didn’t know better, I would’ve sworn it was a different substance altogether. I believe that science will eventually catch up and support what exotic cultivators have known for years: not all mushrooms are equal.
Skeptics claim that psilocybin is psilocybin, and the subjective effects from one mushroom to another are simply due to differences in potency rather than any pharmacological difference from one species to the next. I believe that anyone who holds this belief has not sampled many species of psychedelic mushrooms (and note that I am speaking about species of mushrooms, not strains - it is perhaps true that most of the various psilocybe cubensis strains available, such as Golden Teacher, Amazonian, B+, and so on, are more or less interchangeable with each other.)
The species I have eaten and highest dosages include the following:
- Psilocybe cubensis (up to 4 grams Golden Teacher)
- Psilocybe ochraceocentrata (up to 1.5 grams, roughly as potent as 3.5 grams cubensis fruits)
- Panaeolus cyanescens (up to 600mg TTBVI aborts, roughly as potent as 6 grams cubensis fruits)
- Psilocybe subtropicalis mycelium in the form of myceliated brown rice (up to 40 grams, roughly as potent as 4 grams cubensis fruits)
- Psilocybe subtropicalis (up to 2.5 grams, roughly as potent as 5 grams cubensis)
- Psilocybe zapotecorum (up to 1.0 grams, roughly as potent as 3 grams cubensis)
- Psilocybe mexicana truffles (up to 20 grams, roughly as potent as 3 grams cubensis)
- Psilocybe mexicana fruits (up to 2.5 grams, roughly as potent as 3.5? grams cubensis)
- Transcendently high regard: Ps. mexicana fruits
- Exemplary high regard: Panaeolus cyanescens, Psilocybe zapotecorum
- High regard: Ps. subtropicalis, Ps. ochraceocentrata, Ps. subtropicalis myceliated rice, Ps. mexicana truffles
- Lower regard: Ps. cubensis
- Ps. cubensis (up to 4 grams Golden Teacher): calm, peaceful, therapeutic, groovy, confusing, uncomfortable, opening, overwhelming, emotional, empathetic, hazy, forgettable
- Ps. ochraceocentrata (up to 1.5 grams, roughly as potent as 3.5 grams cubensis fruits): vibing, mindfuck, visual, spiderwebs, colorful, pink, strobe light, zesty, opinionated, wacky, feminine, happy, powerful, deconstructing, musical, connection, communion, sensory overload
- Panaeolus cyanescens (up to 600mg TTBVI aborts, roughly as potent as 6 grams cubensis fruits): clean, exquisite, ecstasy, profound, special, blissful, divinity, beautiful, spiritual, godly, connection, breathtaking, enormous, indescribable, immeasurable, infinite, oceanic, momentous, dissolving
- Ps. subtropicalis myceliated brown rice (up to 40 grams, roughly as potent as 4 grams cubensis fruits): bright, clean, energetic, limitless, connected, kinetic, body high, glorious, physical, corporal, buzzing, twitchy, exorcism
- Ps. subtropicalis (up to 2.5 grams, roughly as potent as 5 grams cubensis): challenging, uncomfortable, wise, stern, teacher, thoughtful, profound, queasy, neon, complex, trial, tribulation, crucible, faith-maker, kinetic, sensual, physical, electric, connection, glorious, infinity, healer, rebirth
- Ps. zapotecorum (up to 1.0 grams, roughly potent as 3 grams cubensis): fractals, geometry, patterns, textures, vibrant, visuals, perfection, divinity within, creation, agency, positivity, light, radiance, good vibes, limitless, beauty, tranquility, purpose, clarity, crystalline, infinity, always, magic, gratitude, gift, acceptance
- Ps. mexicana fresh sclerotia (20g fresh truffles, roughly potent as 3 grams cubensis): queasy, bright, happy, smiles, gratitude, community, light, healing, gentle
- Ps. mexicana fruits (2.5 grams, roughly potent as 3.5? grams cubensis): dreamy, silky, soft, turquoise, sheen, pleasure, sensational, crystalline, humility, gratitude, beyond words, beyond language, beyond thought, beyond me, Everything
Exotic Psilocybin Mushroom Species Reviews Part I: Echelons (minimal spoilers)
Exotic Psilocybin Mushroom Species Reviews Part II: Descriptives (some spoilers)
"I Am Unworthy to Exist in the Same Universe as Psilocybe Mexicana" - Ps. Mexicana Review & Trip Report
Nice one.
Hehe, I notice there's a kind of progression between the last of the words in each list of keywords…
forgettable
sensory overload
dissolving
exorcism
rebirth
acceptance
Everything
This seems to fit with the part of the researcher's caveat pointing out that they were (unavoidably) gaining experience with psychedelics throughout the ~study process.
I'd similarly agree that different species each display their own character. Variation can be noticed between different collections of the same species in different wild or feral locations as well, while still retaining the general character of the species in question.
These are my own subjective recollections over several decades where, unfortunately, systematic record-keeping has been practically absent. Future psilonauts ought to take inspiration from the outlines of method presented in the preceding post. There's every chance that applying a level of organised record-keeping will help to maximise the utility of the psilocybin experience.
That said, sometimes connection to the raw elements of nature hasn't lent itself well to note-taking.
Different species having different energies/spirits/effects should be obvious, imo. The differences in geography/strain could be the more difficult thing to notice. I always tend to feel the land of any particular wild entheogenic plant/fungus coming through it.
I have just recently started my adventure of testing subjective effects of different rue plants from different geographical areas (50, 100, or 400km apart), and each of them came with their own distinct signature for me... I am able to identify clusters/main strains with their different variations/sub strains.
I have just recently started my adventure of testing subjective effects of different rue plants from different geographical areas (50, 100, or 400km apart), and each of them came with their own distinct signature for me... I am able to identify clusters/main strains with their different variations/sub strains.
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