Research that suggest MAOI could attenuate effect of DMT

[jamie]

Just to complicate things a bit further, this source on erowid shows this table:

 Table II-C--Reported Analyses of Ayahuasca Potions

Source                     # Samples Beta-Carbolines  DMT

Der Marderosian et al 1970   1        20 mg           30 mg 
Rivier & Lindgren 1972       9        40 mg           25 mg
McKenna et al 1984           5       401 mg           36 mg
Liwszyc et al 1992           1       144 mg           26 mg
                            ===      ==========      =========
Overall Average             16       158 mg           29 mg

Are those values in line with anyone’s experience? If you throw out the outlying samples reported by McKenna, the averages are 48mg harmalas and 26mg DMT!!

The diame brew looks more reasonable IMO, though diame brews are known to be less reduced..the rest would be weak brews I think..and alot of people go to ceremonies in SA and drink multiple cups of ayahuasca and that could be the reason..


"Analysis of the Mimosa Hostilis rootbark (MHRB) amounts recommended (8 gms) when correlated with the amount of DMT found in the rootbark (average .57%) gives a total dosage of 45 mgs of DMT in the potion. Given that reports of MHRB journeys are typically more intense, this would correlate well with the higher doses."

There is another example of Ott's work that I do not think is valid anymore... .57% for mimosa rootbark? We all know now that 2% is not uncommon at all...

 

[ragabr]

This depends a great deal on what you consider proper dosage. Heheheh.

My comment was made in the context of the amounts used to potentiate DMT... as per the thrust of the thread. Obviously, you can take a large abount of beta-carbolines and have them be visionary on their own. This would be after they have disabled the MAO in the gut and entered the bloodstream in sufficient amount to make it to the brain, disable the MAO there, and then begin binding en masse to the 5HT receptors there.

SWIM has had this effect and enjoys it, but is curious at the moment about the attenuation vs. potentiation of DMT.

Sorry, I was speaking assuming the context of:

Of course there are those individuals who seem to be the exception to this rule: Some members here take ayahuasca that’s very heavy on the caapi side yet very light on the DMT side and still they manage to get DMT effects. So it’s not as simple as harmalas totally canceling out DMT effects at a high-enough dose. (Unless these individuals have exceptionally high levels of MAO in the gut?)

Which represents SWIM's experience very well. She's always amazed at the reports of dosages of oral DMT reported on the Nexus, as everyone she's worked with in person got to where they wanted to go or further with doses below 50mg.

 

[jamie]

^ I can identify with that..I dont understand how anyone could need 100+mg of DMT to get somewhere useful..I guess everyone really is different.. every time I took around 5-6g or more of mimosa-around 100-120mg of DMT it was way too much. 3-4g is the range I have stayed at for the most part becasue I find that is my sweet spot for admixture..

Similarily I have broken through with 3 grams of cubes..though I have had doses of cubes up to about 6-7g and nearly that same dose of cyanescens, I just dont see the point in taking THAT much again..1g of cyans is DMT like enough already and 3g of cubes is difficult to say the least..

Also, I have had very powerful experiences with less than 20g of dry peruvianus cacti skin..

 

[gibran2]

Of course there are those individuals who seem to be the exception to this rule: Some members here take ayahuasca that’s very heavy on the caapi side yet very light on the DMT side and still they manage to get DMT effects. So it’s not as simple as harmalas totally canceling out DMT effects at a high-enough dose. (Unless these individuals have exceptionally high levels of MAO in the gut?)

Which represents SWIM's experience very well. She's always amazed at the reports of dosages of oral DMT reported on the Nexus, as everyone she's worked with in person got to where they wanted to go or further with doses below 50mg.

My highest pharma dose of DMT was 175mg with 175mg of caapi alkaloids.

The strange thing about the experience was that the onset of visual effects didn’t start until over 2.5 hours after ingestion. After about 2 hours, I assumed the MAOI was insufficient and went to bed. Within another 30 minutes or so, it started. But it wasn’t a particularly strong experience.

 

[entheogenadvocate]

I have spent the past few months working exclusively with oral harmalas and low doses of vaped DMT and/or Jungle spice, and I can honestly say its been much more rewarding and productive than my previous couple years of trials with vaped spice alone.

But the main effect is that the experience is literally slowed down: Visuals morph and change at a slower rate. Using an old phonograph analogy, it’s as if the entire experience goes from 78rpm to 33rpm. It makes it much easier to observe what’s going on.

This observation by Gibran2 is the most important aspect of the synergy between harmalas and spice for me. When I first encountered spice, I was blown away by the sense of literally being shot out of my body at light speed into another dimension. However, I am now more interested in what can be learned by turning hyperspace into a slow-moving navigable landscape.

I recently had a three-hour meditation/yoga session facilitated by 250 mgs of harmaline and small tokes of re-x spice out of the GVG, where I was shown many of my previous breakthrough experiences with vaped spice alone. Essentially, I was being told that my breakthroughs with spice alone were analogous to seeing one piece of a 1,000 piece puzzle and trying to predict what the whole puzzle was a picture of.

I can't say for certain that I will eventually completely give up the practice of vaping spice alone, but my experiences sure seem to be trending in that direction.

Peace and Happy Journeys

 

[SpartanII]

I have spent the past few months working exclusively with oral harmalas and low doses of vaped DMT and/or Jungle spice, and I can honestly say its been much more rewarding and productive than my previous couple years of trials with vaped spice alone.

This is what I'm looking for- I dont want to have to smoke a lot of DMT yet I want to have a long enough experience so that there is more time for inner-Work and healing. I also dont want too long of an experience and dont want to get sick. Could you please share what you have found works best for you?

 

[jamie]

^ honestly from what you say you are looking for ayahuasca is probabily better suited for you. Sure, you can smoke changa over and over again in one session, but personally that is not ayahuasca and does not compare..at least for me. Not everyone gets sick, but sometimes you do and that is a HUGE part of the healing often..it is not that bad when it happens. If you are looking for lots of inner work and healing I would say drink ayahuasca or some other similar brew..

I find there is a limit on how much healing work can be done with changa..others will disagree with me, that is fine. I love changa but I dont feel I gain as much as I do from ayahuasca and other long lasting oral tryptamines like mushrooms.

 

[bransondude]

I feel that the harmalas are more complex than currently known. Take changa for instance, it extends the subjective experience while also changing the nature of the experience. Changa is a different experience from DMT alone, most people would agree I think. But people also report that it can put a "ceiling" on it, keeping it kinda tethered or anchored. Also, harmalas with other psilocybin mushrooms feels different, not simply stronger or longer.

Maybe the dopamine, GABA, and norepinephrine effects are playing a role here that we don't know about? I think there is more to the DMT/harmala story than seratonin.

**
And ayahuasca is yet again felt different from DMT or Changa, no? The experiences would't be confused with one another by someone experienced with each route of administration. Is it just the harmala dose or does the ROA come into play also? It's just such a complex relationship between the ingredients and our bodies, a true mystery.

 

[Apoc]

HEY!!! If it's true that dmt and harmalas compete for the same receptors, wouldn't that only be an issue if all the receptors are saturated to the point where the psychoactives can't even find a dang receptor before being metabolized? So wouldn't you basically have to be as high as you could possibly be for this to be an issue? And if one is in a stage so intense, I doubt they would notice whether some harmalas are taking the place of 5h2 receptors instead of dmt. If harmalas are competing with dmt, can't the loser just find another receptor? I think there's plenty of sexy receptors in the brain. Plenty of room and love for all, no?

In my experience, increasing the harmalas only increases the intensity of the dmt, when taken orally anyway. From experience, it's hard to say whether harmalas may actually decrease the effects of dmt. If I've had a lot of harmalas, then it's more difficult to smoke a lot because I'll get more nausea, dizziness, and lose more balance, which decreases my motivation and ability to smoke more. Harmalas will "slow down" a smoked experience though.