Respect the plant spirit???

[jamie]

^this is an interesting position to take..

I think that it is possible that psychedelic alkaloids can be viewed as interspecies pheremones on one level...I think they serve other purposes as well..but I mean..lots of people take something like say, mushrooms and ayahuasca and come out of it with a higher respect for the planet and nature in general..

Even if a plant doesn't have that "intention"..it still seems to come out that way..

Maybe not plants communicating so much, but nature in general with itself..then again..in natural processes what isnt communication?..one thing leading into another implies some form of communication to me, intelligent or not is another story.

 

[Citta]

My humble opinion is that complex biological systems arrange themselves into dense pockets of organization, this organization gives way to a system of information. Plants, when viewed as a species, can precisely fit the definition of intelligence.

I have also been thinking about this, but not only when it comes to plants, but when it comes to everything. The universe consists of countless of systems, it organizes itself into spesific patterns, spesific laws, spesific systems all which connects and create up a whole. Now, I am not going to propose anything about some intelligent design, because that is (for me anyway) definitely being far off. What I am proposing is that nature, the universe, somewhat and somehow is intelligent in itself, as an entity, as a whole. It pumps itself into existence with such a will...

Because the way the universe works fits the very definition of an intelligence. Something that organizes itself and works in conjunction with its parts to come across and defeat obstacles and so on. This we can see all the time through the different branches of natural science. So with this thought I am not saying that you pick up an individual little part and "Wow this is intelligent!", but to take into account the whole in which we find ourselves in, and that it is this whole, this "force" or whatever that is intelligent in some way or another.

I am not stating anything, this is just a thought that I would like to see discussed further =)

 

[burnt]

My humble opinion is that complex biological systems arrange themselves into dense pockets of organization, this organization gives way to a system of information. Plants, when viewed as a species, can precisely fit the definition of intelligence. It is not absurd to think that these complex, LIVING, systems have developed ways of communicating with humans. They communicate with animals in a variety of ways. Why should we be any different?

Everything contains information but not everything is intelligent. I do not see why information implies intelligence?

Plants needed to evolve ways to interact with their environment and because they are sessile they evolved quite the bag of tricks. With insects there are all kinds of chemicals that attract and repel its the same with mammals. The reasons plants do what they do is because it was evolutionary beneficial. There is nothing more to it really.

Who are we to say, even with all our advances in science, that the biological systems of Earth aren't conscious? We have only been aware of geological time for a few hundred years. They CAN learn, meaning they can learn about humans because of our interactions over long periods of time. Wouldn't that be similar to experiencing the presence of and effects of Human Beings? Of course we call the intelligence we encounter "spirits"! What better terms do we have? Plant dwelling root bark people? For me, "spirit" is TRUE ENOUGH for the time being! Is it a coincidence that after ingesting plant based hallucinogens, that many people come out with a deep respect and concern for nature in general? I don't think so.

But its not the individual plant learning anything. Its an evolutionary process that appears to us like they are learning but they aren't they are evolving. Is evolution the same as learning? I don't think its the best term.

Every argument for the brain generating the full spectrum of my consciousness has been at best entertaining. Science can't say anything about love. You couldn't give me a set of conditions to adhere to that will make a girl fall in love with me every single time I try to woo a female (although some might argue wiht me on that one). Don't get me wrong I love science, it is great for observing and explaining physical phenomena. I didn't have time to read the whole thread, so I hope I'm not beating around the bush. Burnt, you are really smart and honestly, it is your postings that strike doubt into some of my beliefs, which is what EVERYONE needs, because when you believe something with absolute certainty you have given up a portion of your mind's freedom.

I don't remember where I posted it in this thread or another but the thing I said about orgasms sums up what I am saying about science understanding consciousness and the current limits there are. Ah I found it I posted on 3rd page of "where can science and spirituality meet" thread.

Thanks for your kind words too thats really my goal to keep people questioning and learning.

I think that it is possible that psychedelic alkaloids can be viewed as interspecies pheremones on one level...I think they serve other purposes as well..but I mean..lots of people take something like say, mushrooms and ayahuasca and come out of it with a higher respect for the planet and nature in general..

Its important to realize that humans too can put selection pressure on plants to produce more or less of certain alkaloids. We do this all the time with the plants we are regularly cultivating and even with plants we use for medicine/ritual stuff. Everything is connected in this evolutionary process. We as humans benefit from the nutrition / medicine the plant benefits from nice living conditions and reproductive assistance. But there is no real intention on either side except that humans can make decisions in a way plants can't.

The original reason plants evolved such alkaloids may have happened long before humans came around but once we interact with any plant by protecting or breeding it or eating it we begin the selection process in the same way as all other animals except we have tools other animals don't (controlled breeding etc).

Because the way the universe works fits the very definition of an intelligence. Something that organizes itself and works in conjunction with its parts to come across and defeat obstacles and so on. This we can see all the time through the different branches of natural science. So with this thought I am not saying that you pick up an individual little part and "Wow this is intelligent!", but to take into account the whole in which we find ourselves in, and that it is this whole, this "force" or whatever that is intelligent in some way or another.

When evolutionary reasoning is applied you can see how this process can happen without any need for the word intelligent being put into the equation.

At least I can I dunno should I get into more detail about this I am throwing around the term evolution a lot? I am not sure how much people really know about evolution?

 

[soulfood]

I do not see why information implies intelligence?

...because inteligence implies information I guess.

 

[Citta]

Yes burnt, I am not implying that some intelligent being is -behind- it, but that the process of everything is in its whole somewhat intelligent. The universe itself. Just look at how amazing evolution works, and how it organizes itself and defeats obstacles. Look at natures diversity. I am talking about a whole, not about individual parts, so I am not just talking about biology and evolution. I am not arguing against that what happens in the universe is casual either, and I do know about evolution. And I am talking about intelligence in the terms of something that manages to solve problems, evolve past derangements and organize itself into systems. This is what the universe does, and we see it all the time. Look at our brain, look at biology, look at physics.

The universe is in constant and certain development, complexifying itself all the time. Just like we do..

Besides, this was all just a proposal, not a statement. I like to play with thoughts, even if they are somewhat far out!

 

[burnt]

^^I see what you mean. And largely I agree I just don't use the word intelligence then. Intelligence to me has a different meaning but as with all words it can have many meanings and indications.

 

[Citta]

Allright mister Burnt (I am very tempted to write Mr. Burns!!), then I guess we are pretty much singing the same melody, just with different words^^

 

[burnt]

Mr. Burns haha...excellent.

 

[soulfood]

^^I see what you mean. And largely I agree I just don't use the word intelligence then. Intelligence to me has a different meaning but as with all words it can have many meanings and indications.

Absolutely inteligence is organised by nature and any old random mess can be considered information, but I guess you have to walk before you can run.

 

[DOS]

Yes and this is exactly why an intelligence cannot design a universe or life without having first evolved by a darwinian / natural selection process. To just claim a designer is to forget to ask what designed the designer?

I disagree. We're going back to the beginning only with me there is beginning, and there is no end. Events are not linear like on a time line. Time is an illusion. God=The Infinite Universe=Eternal Consciousness. You are stuck in the human construct of time, burnt. We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Concerning the origin of life. Personally I think one day someone will observe something like catalytic RNA form from a random soup of nucleotides (which we already know can form spontaneously from simpler building blocks) under the right conditions. Something like RNA that could catalyze chemical reactions was very likely the first thing to have life like qualities. This is all life needs to evolve into all the complex forms we see today. There's no question of the evolution of life after something like like starts. To say that just because no one has observed something like this refutes evolution and thus requires intelligent beings doing all the real work is a terrible argument because your facing a weight of evidence that is overwhelming and presenting a theory with no evidence at all.

Scientists have been looking for the right conditions for decades. I'd think human intelligence would be able to figure out the mindless processes of mother nature by now since we do have a much higher grasp of what information is, but it seems the mindless is superior to the mind according to you. There is zero observable evidence for abiogenesis. I'm not talking about biological evolution. My theory is a logical alternative to abiogenesis because you and I both know that mankind will design life from scratch, and it won't involve some unknowable condition or ingredient.

My main point is that I think it's disrespectful to the plant to cut off pieces of it in the first place. I am sure the plant does not appreciate it and if the plant could talk it would probably scream in pain as you cut off pieces of it to put into your brew.

Our bodies are being eaten by millions of microscopic things right now, and when we die our bodies will be a buffet to maggots, and worms. Life consumes life, animals evolved to survive in large part off of plants. We are alone in our hesitation to consume other animals, and plants out of necessity. Where we draw the line between necessity and convenience is a tiresome discussion in and of itself.

I believe that entheogenic plants are here purposefully to expand our consciousness, and the only way to do that is if they are consumed. I think they weigh the pros and cons. Animals spread their seed quickly to ensure their survival. They nourish us with their fruit so that we may see their value, and in return we take care of them. Most plants do the same but with insects via flowers. I think entheogens are the flowers or fruit so to speak of the plants they come from only their fruit are not for physical nutrition, and growth so much as they are for spiritual/psychological nutrition, and growth.

 

[burnt]

I disagree. We're going back to the beginning only with me there is beginning, and there is no end. Events are not linear like on a time line. Time is an illusion. God=The Infinite Universe=Eternal Consciousness. You are stuck in the human construct of time, burnt. We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Time is what humans measure on a clock. However the visible universe the arrow of time is predominantly heading in the direction of increasing entropy. That's really all I think about time. Plus the whole relativity stuff but its related.

I don't see how that creates a problem with my statement though? god=the infinite universe=eternal consciousness is not an explanation. At least I don't see what your saying can you be more specific?

Scientists have been looking for the right conditions for decades. I'd think human intelligence would be able to figure out the mindless processes of mother nature by now since we do have a much higher grasp of what information is, but it seems the mindless is superior to the mind according to you. There is zero observable evidence for abiogenesis. I'm not talking about biological evolution. My theory is a logical alternative to abiogenesis because you and I both know that mankind will design life from scratch, and it won't involve some unknowable condition or ingredient.

Human intelligence has figured out the mindless process of evolution. Which explains the origin of all species and most likely life as well. The only thing thats never been observed is the very first kind of 'organism' even though as I said before we might not consider it life. There is plenty of evidence that amino acids and nucleic acids can form in the coldness of space as well as conditions that resemble what we think the early earth might have been like. Thats been demonstrated. Just because no one has witness that rare event where those things come together to make some molecule capable of replication doesn't mean the evolution of life didn't happen by something mechanism like this. It probably took millions upon billions of molecules before the right one happened to form. We might have to let an experiment run for over a millions years to see an enzymatic piece of RNA capable of replication to form or something similar. This is why we will probably make life from scratch one day because thats not too far away. But that doesn't refute evolution in any way shape or form.

Again you are just repeating the same arguments people who believe in intelligent design even though you like to call it universal consciousness. You are not offering a viable alternative either. You have no theory just claims without evidence or mechanisms.

 

[DOS]

Time is what humans measure on a clock. However the visible universe the arrow of time is predominantly heading in the direction of increasing entropy. That's really all I think about time. Plus the whole relativity stuff but its related.

Good point about entropy. The clock is man's attempt at fighting entropy, and he tries to use the hour to escape it by working overtime.

I don't see how that creates a problem with my statement though? god=the infinite universe=eternal consciousness is not an explanation. At least I don't see what your saying can you be more specific?

You argued that believing in superior intelligent beings that created the first life on earth begs the question which is who created the creator? I responded by saying that Intelligent life has ALWAYS existed outside the construct of time which is God, the eternal, universal consciousness. You believe in the eternal mindless, I believe in the eternal mind.

Just because no one has witness that rare event where those things come together to make some molecule capable of replication doesn't mean the evolution of life didn't happen by something mechanism like this. It probably took millions upon billions of molecules before the right one happened to form. We might have to let an experiment run for over a millions years to see an enzymatic piece of RNA capable of replication to form or something similar. This is why we will probably make life from scratch one day because thats not too far away. But that doesn't refute evolution in any way shape or form.

Again, you are saying that a mindless process is superior or beyond what highly intelligent minds can comprehend by saying that it must take millions of years to get it just right (or maybe billions since the amino acids are fighting entropy) and even when it happens we probably won't get it. Man can use supercomputers among other things to calculate everything to get that first IT just right.

Homo sapiens can do what takes the mindless game of chance that is evolution millions of years in a matter of a few centuries. Take Canines for example. There are wolves, dingos, foxes etc. and they all look pretty similar, but the genotype and phenotype differences took millions of years to manifest to present day. Man has bred hundreds of distinctly different breeds in an evolutionary blink of an eye. It's hard to believe that a Chihuahua could be successfully impregnated by a Great Dane because they look like completely different species, but they can. I'm pointing out the fact that mans mind is superior in creative potential to mindless nature.

You are saying to trust in some unknown magical occurrence that is simply out of mans reach, because hey if it takes 6 billion years for life to maybe spontaneously form then why bother looking? Lets just have faith in the creative power of mindless entropy.

I am saying that intelligent minds can make IT (new life) within a mans lifetime, and that there will be no mystery when IT happens. Man does not have the biggest brains in the universe; it is arrogant to assume so. I'm merely pointing to the bigger brains, and there is nothing unscientific about that.

You are not offering a viable alternative either. You have no theory just claims without evidence or mechanisms.

You agree that intelligent life is fully capable of designing life from scratch, and agree that man is close in achieving this goal, but you deny the creative powers of Extra Terrestrials...hmmm.

 

[burnt]

Good point about entropy. The clock is man's attempt at fighting entropy, and he tries to use the hour to escape it by working overtime.

Haha. Yes and well there are also theories that time isn't always going forward but the over trend is forward in this universe. There may be mirror universe where its the other way around which is hard to comphrehend. I can't make sense of it but whatever.

You argued that believing in superior intelligent beings that created the first life on earth begs the question which is who created the creator? I responded by saying that Intelligent life has ALWAYS existed outside the construct of time which is God, the eternal, universal consciousness. You believe in the eternal mindless, I believe in the eternal mind.

Ah ok I see what you mean. So theres no beginning to this eternal mind? No end no beginning?

Again, you are saying that a mindless process is superior or beyond what highly intelligent minds can comprehend by saying that it must take millions of years to get it just right (or maybe billions since the amino acids are fighting entropy) and even when it happens we probably won't get it. Man can use supercomputers among other things to calculate everything to get that first IT just right.

I don't consider evolution a superior or inferior process. Its just a process that's unavoidable.

Homo sapiens can do what takes the mindless game of chance that is evolution millions of years in a matter of a few centuries. Take Canines for example. There are wolves, dingos, foxes etc. and they all look pretty similar, but the genotype and phenotype differences took millions of years to manifest to present day. Man has bred hundreds of distinctly different breeds in an evolutionary blink of an eye. It's hard to believe that a Chihuahua could be successfully impregnated by a Great Dane because they look like completely different species, but they can. I'm pointing out the fact that mans mind is superior in creative potential to mindless nature.

Well yes we can certainly influence the development of species and breed them and all these well known things. But we are not outside evolution we are part of it. I do not think mans creative nature is superior to the creative potential of mindless nature either. Maybe one day we will design so many species that we can make that claim but I doubt that will ever happen. Just look at the diversity of life and you can clearly see man cannot feasably create such diversity. Evolution on the other hand can and did. Each species living is the result of a very slow gradual process fulfilling their niches etc. I am still awe struck by the techniques some organisms use to survive.

If we had a planet to play with like mars lets say we terraformed it and genetically modified every organism on it to be the way we want they would still change once natural selection kicked in which would always be going on. Its always going on.

You are saying to trust in some unknown magical occurrence that is simply out of mans reach, because hey if it takes 6 billion years for life to maybe spontaneously form then why bother looking? Lets just have faith in the creative power of mindless entropy.

I definitely think we should keep experimenting. Even if we have to set up some long term experiment that no one will ever live to see the result of. People are running such experiments as far as I know although its not a million year thing maybe 50 I forget. Also the study of molecular biology is revealing more clues all the time about how these processes could have happened and the relationship between all life with our common ancestors.

You agree that intelligent life is fully capable of designing life from scratch, and agree that man is close in achieving this goal, but you deny the creative powers of Extra Terrestrials...hmmm.

Again where do you think the extra terrestrials came from? Did they pop out of some dimension and drop a terd on earth and then life started? Where is your process? Did they synthesize some little bacteria and launch it from another star system? Even if this happened somehow they must have evolved too.

I don't buy the idea that intelligence comes first or is eternal. But I am debating that stuff in another thread.

Its possible life could have come from space but this doesn't imply design because everything still requires the evolutionary process to get started.

 

[DOS]

Haha. Yes and well there are also theories that time isn't always going forward but the over trend is forward in this universe. There may be mirror universe where its the other way around which is hard to comphrehend. I can't make sense of it but whatever.

If you think about it all living things which are self-aware (meaning all life biologically contain sensory perception of the self & environment & have a sex-drive) are anti-entropy. Entropy is mindless disordered information, energy AKA chaos. Put the mindless chaotic breakdown which is entropy together with the organized information-filled creative consciousness that is biological life (anti-entropy) and you have Perfect Chaos, The Yin Yang.
So in a way we are that mirror universe you speak of, we just never really look into the mirror.

Ah ok I see what you mean. So theres no beginning to this eternal mind? No end no beginning?

You got it. Personally, I think that the eternal mind cannot exist without the eternal mindless and vise verse. It's a duality I have no reason to deny; I've experienced both during my entheogenic space odysseys.

I do not think mans creative nature is superior to the creative potential of mindless nature either.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. What I meant by "superior creative potential" is that the mind is quicker than the mindless. Man can already speed up evolution exponentially through selective breeding, and genetic manipulation which is why I brought up the canine example. Man can also potentially fully understand the microbiology of life, and evolution, and in doing so create life from scratch. By scratch I mean scientists will be able to write fluently with genes which are the key to making a inanimate biological machine run, and reproduce on its own.

Maybe one day we will design so many species that we can make that claim but I doubt that will ever happen. Just look at the diversity of life and you can clearly see man cannot feasibly create such diversity. Evolution on the other hand can and did. Each species living is the result of a very slow gradual process fulfilling their niches etc. I am still awe struck by the techniques some organisms use to survive.

If we had a planet to play with like mars lets say we terraformed it and genetically modified every organism on it to be the way we want they would still change once natural selection kicked in which would always be going on. Its always going on.

I agree that mankind as a species will never see the day on which he can look at a whole planet filled with creatures that he DESIGNED because mankind is perpetually too busy trying to get his head out of his own ass. Nature is perfect, and awe-inspiring not only in the sheer numbers of species but also like you say the survival mechanisms that such beautiful creatures develop.

Again where do you think the extra terrestrials came from? Did they pop out of some dimension and drop a turd on earth and then life started? Where is your process? Did they synthesize some little bacteria and launch it from another star system? Even if this happened somehow they must have evolved too.

Again, you're asking who created the creators, and I already gave you the answer. The question is insignificant. The process of design is universal that is the process of universal consciousness.

Its possible life could have come from space but this doesn't imply design because everything still requires the evolutionary process to get started.

The mindless theoretical process of abiogenesis is the Atheist plane that is dead in water because rocks do not like working, and even though the ocean loves working it is the work of entropy. The pieces of the planes wings can never be pieced together.

 

[burnt]

You got it. Personally, I think that the eternal mind cannot exist without the eternal mindless and vise verse. It's a duality I have no reason to deny; I've experienced both during my entheogenic space odysseys.

What is the eternal mind? Is it everything? I don't think everything in the universe can be claimed to be 'mind'. I'd say most of the universe is mindless. Most people would.

Why do you think your entheogenic space adventures put you into synch or connection or awareness of this eternal mind? SWIM has certainly experienced things like this but there are valid neuroscientific explanations for why they might happen and that its hallucinatory sensations being generates by neurons doing things they normally don't.

Again, you're asking who created the creators, and I already gave you the answer. The question is insignificant. The process of design is universal that is the process of universal consciousness.

Evolution explains the origin of all species we see. There is no question of who designed the designer in evolution either because its irrelevant.

How can it be the process of universal consciousness when evolutionary kinds of mechanisms and the laws of physics so far account for everything we observe? Where is this so called universal consciousness? Where does it interact with matter? Is it made of matter? You need to answer these questions before you can make claims like this.

So far your only evidence you claim comes from having experiences that are most likely hallucinations.

The mindless theoretical process of abiogenesis is the Atheist plane that is dead in water because rocks do not like working, and even though the ocean loves working it is the work of entropy. The pieces of the planes wings can never be pieced together.

There are tons of theories about abiogenesis that have not yet been falsified but are falsifiable in some ways. Therefore you can't claim that its dead in the water. Someone may be able to demonstrate that under natural conditions life can form spontaneously under various conditions or under a very specific set of conditions. This is no small task but its still an active field of the natural sciences.

Also when do you consider something life?

You still haven't offered any other explanation for how life got here by the way. Claiming something vauge about universal consciousness doesn't count as a mechanism for the origin or evolution of life.

 

[DOS]

What is the eternal mind? Is it everything?

Yes, everything and nothing at the same time. I attribute the quantum bits of information within atoms which you spoke of to the eternal mind. What I mean by everything and nothing at the same time is that an atom (every atom in existence) is pulsating in and out of existence here. Only it's not actually ceasing to exist here but in fact appears instantaneously at another point in or outside of space-time, and even when it's here it is not actually here but in between here and there. It is at once present and not present. The eternal mind as a whole is an atom, the primordial oneness that is The Dao/Tao. It is at once the eternal mind, and eternal mindless. Because it is pulsating on and off for eternity which is The Dream which is NOW. The atom is infinite, infinity is within the nucleus far beyond the quarks.

The atomic paradigm is present at all levels. I see it explain the duality of the physical/spiritual good ( +, loving, creative, harmless) and physical/spiritual evil ( -, hateful, destructive that is adversity). Why does evil prevail in the world? Because its electrons completely envelope the good charge of positrons, and the neutrons in the nucleus of every being. The creative nature of the eternal mind is love, and this is known through the beauty of Nature which is perfectly neutral. By neutral I mean that the positive, and negative, the creative and destructive cancel each other out like they do in an atom. The destructive nature of the eternal mind is known through the destruction that nature breeds though within a lifespan. The expired life balances the scale with new life. Life feeds death (entropy), death feeds life (anti-entropy). Death=Holy Shit that Life springs from.

The dual forces within an atom though opposing are perfectly complementary in that we would not KNOW the good of love without experiencing the evils of adversity. We would not KNOW what light is without darkness. We would not KNOW the mind without the mindless. This is because they compose ONE, the dual forces are one in the same. Destruction is the creation of creation, creation is the destruction of destruction. White is the darkness of black, black is the lightness of white. The mind is the OFF of the mindless, the mindless is the ON of mind & vise verse. I emphasize KNOW because opposing dualities are required to fully comprehend what is and is not. Within an ocean of white faith there is infinite black doubt, and within an ocean of black doubt there is infinite white faith. Look at the Yin Yang. Dualities are not within that one circle, they are that ONE circle. It is known in the motion of the two oceans neither here nor there that is NOW this DREAM.

You may think me full of shit, but don't forget I'm full of Holy Shit (Thanks, Bill Hicks). My philosophical perspective comes directly from entheogens.

Why do you think your entheogenic space adventures put you into synch or connection or awareness of this eternal mind?

Because that is why entheogens are here to begin with so that we may be fully aware that is to fully FEEL that is to fully EXPERIENCE and thus fully KNOW. And apparently also so that I may fully have faith, and so that you may fully doubt my faith. Why do you think all of us are experiencing the same phenomena? It is a rather astronomical coincidence wouldn't you say?

SWIM has certainly experienced things like this but there are valid neuroscientific explanations for why they might happen and that its hallucinatory sensations being generates by neurons doing things they normally don't...your only evidence you claim comes from having experiences that are most likely hallucinations.

Your only evidence from your claim comes from experiences most likely "hallucinations." I'm on a serotonin trip while writing this and you are on a serotonin trip while reading this. Do you think the molecular structure of serotonin is more real than DMT? I'd think not in which case why do you think the effects of serotonin more real than DMT? Because of the duration of TIME that you experience the effects. When this serotonin trip ends you will wake up from all this dreamt, and realize that WOW! That whole life was according to this clock next to me "7 minutes long." Time is irrelevant more so than relative.

 

[burnt]

The atomic paradigm is present at all levels. I see it explain the duality of the physical/spiritual good ( +, loving, creative, harmless) and physical/spiritual evil ( -, hateful, destructive that is adversity). Why does evil prevail in the world? Because its electrons completely envelope the good charge of positrons, and the neutrons in the nucleus of every being. The creative nature of the eternal mind is love, and this is known through the beauty of Nature which is perfectly neutral. By neutral I mean that the positive, and negative, the creative and destructive cancel each other out like they do in an atom. The destructive nature of the eternal mind is known through the destruction that nature breeds though within a lifespan. The expired life balances the scale with new life. Life feeds death (entropy), death feeds life (anti-entropy). Death=Holy Shit that Life springs from.

This makes no sense. Electrons and positrons are not good or evil. Also positrons are not the same as protons which balance the electric charge of electrons in an atom. But regardless you aren't saying anything meaningful about atoms and spiritualism. Just combing the two in a poetic way.

Because that is why entheogens are here to begin with so that we may be fully aware that is to fully FEEL that is to fully EXPERIENCE and thus fully KNOW. And apparently also so that I may fully have faith, and so that you may fully doubt my faith. Why do you think all of us are experiencing the same phenomena? It is a rather astronomical coincidence wouldn't you say?

Again you are ignoring the evolutionary and biological explanations for why these substances exist in nature and placing a humancentric view. We are experiencing the same phenomena because the substances have similar effects on our brains.

Your only evidence from your claim comes from experiences most likely "hallucinations." I'm on a serotonin trip while writing this and you are on a serotonin trip while reading this. Do you think the molecular structure of serotonin is more real than DMT? I'd think not in which case why do you think the effects of serotonin more real than DMT? Because of the duration of TIME that you experience the effects. When this serotonin trip ends you will wake up from all this dreamt, and realize that WOW! That whole life was according to this clock next to me "7 minutes long." Time is irrelevant more so than relative.

The evidence is not that I am saying they are hallucinations. The evidence is that there is evidence that they are hallucinations. There are many experiences where the brain creates a clear 100% illusion. Like phantom limb syndrome. Look at the evidence before you make bogus claims. Seretonin and dmt are just as real as one another. When this seretonin trip ends? What are you talking about?

Again you haven't really demonstrated anything to prove your original point which was about plant spirits. I don't want to continue this discussion if you are just going to repeat the same poetic sentences that have no real meaning.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I suppose this conversation keeps the mystery alive, by making it more mysterious. 8)

Experientially, through working with Ayahuasca, for myself, it has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt that every single living thing--or better, perhaps, every organized system--is intelligent. I have communicated with plants, I have experienced the sentient awareness in my body's cells. I know this is worthless in an argument from a scientific standpoint, other than it might be worth noting that someone who would have never dreamed of thinking otherwise is now totally convinced.

Or, would a better to propose that perhaps DNA itself is intelligent, and evolution is DNA learning? So, as long as we all share this common thread, our intelligence is all an expression of that same thread?

Has anyone read Jeremy Narby?

Interestingly enough, since I have begun working with Ayahuasca, I always talk to my plants. There is a BIG palm tree in my house who has lived with us for about ten years, and never, ever bloomed once. This year, he shot out a giant string of these white, pom-pom flowers that made the whole house smell SO beautiful... on my BIRTHDAY!! Precisely on my birthday. My leafy friends *know.*

I am convinced.

I am aware of arguments where people will say plants communicating through root systems, etc., are all just products of electrical/biochemical feedback, response to stimulus, etc. But who is to say that consciousness doesn't also express itself biochemically? Just because we are full of chemical reactions, doesn't mean there isn't any intelligence present--whether the intelligence/spirit comes from the organism, the tinier units within the organism, or the whole of all these parts combined... And this huge dance of entities big and small is just what people call spirit?

It really intrigues me, personally, when I hear people talking about "the consciousness of water" and other elements. That is currently beyond my realm of subjective (hallucinated? ) experience. I think there's something else to be said about when people perceive consciousness/intelligence/spirit, when the mind finds a way to align with the essence of whatever else it is contemplating. Lots of people who have taken Salvia and Ho'oponopono healers even talk about the consciousness of "inanimate" objects, like chairs.

Hmm....

 

[Cheeto]

Your only evidence from your claim comes from experiences most likely "hallucinations." I'm on a serotonin trip while writing this and you are on a serotonin trip while reading this. Do you think the molecular structure of serotonin is more real than DMT? I'd think not in which case why do you think the effects of serotonin more real than DMT? Because of the duration of TIME that you experience the effects. When this serotonin trip ends you will wake up from all this dreamt, and realize that WOW! That whole life was according to this clock next to me "7 minutes long." Time is irrelevant more so than relative.

because this "serotonin trip" tells you that there is a wall in front of you(If your looking at one), Others are experiencing the exact same wall, the exact same color(If there not color blind), and all of you can touch this wall and prove that it exists. Now, this in no way discredits that something in the hallucination world itsn't real, but this wall can easily be proved to be real, while the hallucination can change dramatically from person to person, which makes this "serotonin trip" alot more valid and reliable and offers proof that it does infact exist. You cannot do the same with a hallucination unless what you see there can be confirmed to exist in this trip of reality. Even from your personal trips, only yours, can change dramatically each time you experience it.

And that is a peice of evidence that i have been dying to see, but so far have not. I have yet to see a hallucination that has been verified to be real in this "serotonin trip". Not saying its not out there, and i hope it is, but i have never even heard of it.

 

[ohayoco]

"Respect the plant spirit" could be translated into a modern view as "respect the source of the experience". Respect the power of the entheogen because that helps with set and setting, and be mindful of the sourcing of your materials so you are neither harming others through your actions nor stopping others from being able to experience the entheogen in future.