Respect the plant spirit???

[Cheeto]

"Respect the plant spirit" could be translated into a modern view as "respect the source of the experience". Respect the power of the entheogen because that helps with set and setting, and be mindful of the sourcing of your materials so you are neither harming others through your actions nor stopping others from being able to experience the entheogen in future.

It was originally aimed specifically to the view of a spirit or entity being present in the plant, like you hiding in the plant, and when i consume this plant i get to meet you. It just kinda shape shifted into another discussion, though i guess it wasn't really the best subject to discuss, but some actually don't mind discussing it. I was just kinda crushed when i discovered that my OBE was more than likely an illusion created by my brain, thats the main source that fed my interests in the spirit world.

 

[Cheeto]

Ya know, i don't know if i'm crazy or what, but another thing that drives my spiritual thoughts is a very crazy experience i've had many times. I guess you could even say i'm somewhat of a nut, but on many occasions i have looked into a wild birds eye's, and squirrel once, and visualized me looking through its eye's as it looks at me, grasp some kind of feeling like i'm connected with the bird and it walks up to me. Very very odd, because when i got anxiety because it actually was walking up to me, it would turn and run, but i try to connect back, and it turns around and runs back to me(Getting within 2 feet), and in one case got a foot infront of me then flew off and missed my head within inches.

I've had a hawk land in a tree over 20ft away, fly down to the ground, walk around, then walk right up to me, 5ft away, and just looked at me directly in my eyes for a couple of minutes then fly off.

I've tried this maybe illusional connection on a mole walking around at night over 50 feet away, without making any noise or movement, and it runs directly at me, gets 10ft away, i feel freaked out because its seemingly working(I'm trying to get them to come to me), it turns and runs away, i feel i'm connected again and it comes straight for me again. Freaky!

I've had a 3ft grass snake run up on me in the woods, where i like to smoke my herb, and just stair at it as it stairs at me, it chilled with me for about 10 minutes, then carried on as normal.

I just don't know what to think of all that, would science even have an explanation?

With the birds, i've had that happen over 20 times, only once with the mole, hawk, squirrel and snake. Oh yea, and about 2 or 3 times with chipmunks. I don't seem to be crazy, so i really don't know what to make of it. I guess you could say i'm crazy, being that i even tried it, i don't seem crazy do i?

By the way, i usually don't share this story with others for obvious reasons.

 

[elofer]

thats awesome cheeto! I've done the same with my cats and a bunch of wild kritterz..definetly FEEL that we are making a actual connection..after all reality is really just a bunch of 'feelings'
the reflectiions in eyes..ohh it goes forever..for-ever always all-ways
white tantric yoga has a pracice where you sit in lotus pose with a partner doing the same toutching knees..gazing deeply into eachothers eyes for 1.5 hours, a whole room full of people doing this..there were moments when i could see everyone in the room whether they were in my feild of vision or not..through the reflections in the corner of everyones eyes...I would suggest to anyone wanting to experience that kind of human connection to look up the sikhs and do a white tantric yoga session:shock:

 

[elofer]

and on the subject of this post..I feel there are a presence in all the plants..some of them its alot more obvious than others..phalaris grass for instance...a 'mere grass plant' can do things to you like what it must be like for god to take your spirit,essence,conciousness,energy body or whatever and shake it sooooooooooooooooooo:shock: intensly that you feel every atom in your body will be pulled apart...and salvia definetly feels feminine to me...amanita definetly both or neither..canabis for sure fem!!!!! ohh the glorious flowers! mabey its just my percieving it that way..not saying thats the way it is..might be totaly diferent for someone else....

 

[burnt]

and on the subject of this post..I feel there are a presence in all the plants..some of them its alot more obvious than others..phalaris grass for instance...a 'mere grass plant' can do things to you like what it must be like for god to take your spirit,essence,conciousness,energy body or whatever and shake it soooooooooooooooooooShocked intensly that you feel every atom in your body will be pulled apart...and salvia definetly feels feminine to me...amanita definetly both or neither..canabis for sure fem!!!!! ohh the glorious flowers! mabey its just my percieving it that way..not saying thats the way it is..might be totaly diferent for someone else...

These plants have drugs in them that effect your mind. Why is that not a valid explanation? It is the only explanation with facts and evidence to back it up.

Experientially, through working with Ayahuasca, for myself, it has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt that every single living thing--or better, perhaps, every organized system--is intelligent. I have communicated with plants, I have experienced the sentient awareness in my body's cells. I know this is worthless in an argument from a scientific standpoint, other than it might be worth noting that someone who would have never dreamed of thinking otherwise is now totally convinced. Razz

It is a worthless argument. There are many organized systems that are not intelligent. And you are making up definitions for the word intelligence where they don't apply.

Or, would a better to propose that perhaps DNA itself is intelligent, and evolution is DNA learning? So, as long as we all share this common thread, our intelligence is all an expression of that same thread?

DNA is not intelligent. Also what about things that don't use DNA? There are virus's that are only RNA and protein. There are proteins that can replicate without DNA (called prions). Molecular biology clearly shows how DNA works. Its not intelligent. These kind of connections you are drawing are not based on real world explanations for why we all have DNA how DNA works how DNA makes life work. When you know all that claims like yours are clearly revealed as pseudoscientific nonsense.

This year, he shot out a giant string of these white, pom-pom flowers that made the whole house smell SO beautiful... on my BIRTHDAY!! Precisely on my birthday. My leafy friends *know.*

Plants can get CO2 from your breathe. Also plants can detect minute concentrations of chemicals that are found in everyday perfumes and fragrances. People who study plant cell culture have observed this many times on accident mostly. From wearing perfume that had plant signaling compounds in it. There are many reasons why your plant bloomed that has nothing to do with your voice or what you say. Your plant doesn't hear you talking it can't. Its absurd to think plants can understand human language.

I am aware of arguments where people will say plants communicating through root systems, etc., are all just products of electrical/biochemical feedback, response to stimulus, etc. But who is to say that consciousness doesn't also express itself biochemically? Just because we are full of chemical reactions, doesn't mean there isn't any intelligence present--whether the intelligence/spirit comes from the organism, the tinier units within the organism, or the whole of all these parts combined... And this huge dance of entities big and small is just what people call spirit?

Electrical biochemical stuff is what makes consciousness. Thats what I have been saying all along. Plants don't have that machinery. So they can't be conscious. Its that simple. Human intelligence comes from the brain thats a fact. 100% fact. Consciousness maybe there is something more (i doubt it) but our intelligence is definitely because we have human brains. You cannot deny that. No one can.

It really intrigues me, personally, when I hear people talking about "the consciousness of water" and other elements. That is currently beyond my realm of subjective (hallucinated? Razz ) experience. I think there's something else to be said about when people perceive consciousness/intelligence/spirit, when the mind finds a way to align with the essence of whatever else it is contemplating. Lots of people who have taken Salvia and Ho'oponopono healers even talk about the consciousness of "inanimate" objects, like chairs.

It makes sense that people who take hallucinogens and think they are real would think that the objects morphing and melting and sometimes talking are alive and conscious. But they aren't. A chair is not conscious. If you think it is you are seriously deluded.

 

[DOS]

The evidence is not that I am saying they are hallucinations. The evidence is that there is evidence that they are hallucinations. There are many experiences where the brain creates a clear 100% illusion. Like phantom limb syndrome. Look at the evidence before you make bogus claims. Seretonin and dmt are just as real as one another. When this seretonin trip ends? What are you talking about?

This evidence that you speak of is data skewed by biased subjective perspective so that the data fits neatly inside theory. It is not evidence it is opinion like mine. The only reason we can all agree on a very basic observable reality is because we are all on the same default serotonin trip. Like you said the chemical has the same effects on our chemistry which is 99% identical. We're all on this sober trip, and by sober I mean a drug addict can only function comfortably while on the drug. Once it ends meaning once your hominid vessel expires you'll wake up, and realize that your whole life was not 90 years or however many years. You will realize that it was only a moment of NOW in the eternal dream.

Again you haven't really demonstrated anything to prove your original point which was about plant spirits. I don't want to continue this discussion if you are just going to repeat the same poetic sentences that have no real meaning.

If you're looking for proof best wait till you checkout because no one right now has proof on anything...no, not even you though you might prefer your empty thoughts. We can't break through to the noumenon. Real meaning? He who believes consciousness is an empty lie is looking for real meaning? Good luck reconciling your double-think. I've said all I can to you. Good discussion... I only wish you could step outside your comfortable little box of numbers and feel what is said.

because this "serotonin trip" tells you that there is a wall in front of you(If your looking at one), Others are experiencing the exact same wall, the exact same color(If there not color blind), and all of you can touch this wall and prove that it exists. Now, this in no way discredits that something in the hallucination world itsn't real, but this wall can easily be proved to be real, while the hallucination can change dramatically from person to person, which makes this "serotonin trip" alot more valid and reliable and offers proof that it does infact exist. You cannot do the same with a hallucination unless what you see there can be confirmed to exist in this trip of reality. Even from your personal trips, only yours, can change dramatically each time you experience it.

Again, others are experiencing the same wall because others are on the same trip that you are on, and are physically right there with you touching it and interacting with it. That doesn't prove that the wall is there. Take away the serotonin and replace it with a lifetime dose of Substance XYZ and who's to say that wall would remain. People have been known to experience the same phenomenon when taking entheogens together in which case they can all agree upon what was there, and was not because they were there at once interacting with that same hypothetical psychedelic wall.

And that is a piece of evidence that i have been dying to see, but so far have not. I have yet to see a hallucination that has been verified to be real in this "serotonin trip". Not saying its not out there, and i hope it is, but i have never even heard of it.

You like others believe that this serotonin trip is more real than a DMT trip for example because you have this caveman perception that this trip lasts longer. It does not. Both are a blink in the eye of eternity of NOW. Time is an illusion. Take away the time factor and what is your crutch to lean on? This reality is beautiful but no more valid than the rest. Seeing a dream within a dream only proves you are dreaming.

 

[jamie]

Personally I am beginning to believe that these things are spirits and that these plants can connect each one of us up with some sort of global internet system..based on recent journeys anyway.

We dont really know..truth can be stranger than fiction..maybe the earth really is speaking to us..in her own way..Im leaning on the idea that these things as as pheremones within the organic matrix..

 

[Cheeto]

Again, others are experiencing the same wall because others are on the same trip that you are on, and are physically right there with you touching it and interacting with it. That doesn't prove that the wall is there. Take away the serotonin and replace it with a lifetime dose of Substance XYZ and who's to say that wall would remain. People have been known to experience the same phenomenon when taking entheogens together in which case they can all agree upon what was there, and was not because they were there at once interacting with that same hypothetical psychedelic wall.

Like i said, i'm not saying there is proof that the hallucinations aren't real. But to say that reality trip is equal to hallucinations in how they can be proved is a bit of a stetch and completely not true. No one on any drug has ever experienced the insyncness that we get from reality, if you say so then you just want to believe that. These people that can see that same wall can leave and another group come in and see the same thing, and another, and another. While you can have two people in the same room on the same drug at the same dose and see completely different stuff. They may be insync in some casses, but no where near the degree that reality offers, thats how science is possible, if everything always changed like hallucinations you could not study anything really.

Once again, don't confuse my statement, i'm not saying that what you see in hallucination is false, but i will argue the insyncness we get from reality and how its compaired and unmatched by hallucinations.

 

[jamie]

Take an indigenous amazonian and some random westerner and put them side by side in the jungle...what they can see are world apart. In alot of ways the way we each see the world is subjective
...we dont see the same things at all. There is tons of insyncness in everyday reality.

If we could all see the same thing..we wouldnt be destroying our home, basically cutting ourselves off from the neck down..while other groups of people are very aware of the connection we have with nature and how important that connection is..we wouldnt be cutting down all the forests and poisoning the oceans that are sacred to many other people..

Sure it sounds good to just sum it all up the way that you did but really it's a cop out..I am thinking more and more that science is just alot of talk that seems to miss the bigger picture.

 

[Cheeto]

Take an indigenous amazonian and some random westerner and put them side by side in the jungle...what they can see are world apart.

I'm sorry, but i have to disagree. Note, not an argument, just a disagreement.

If you place a tree infront of both of them, they may veiw the tree different, but there eyes will both see a brown tree with green leaves. The personal experience and what it means to you will be different, but the physical item at hand everyone will experience.

Think of it like this, say you place a tablet, with an english phrase on it("In god we trust"), on a grassy hill. You place anyone capable of reading english and they can word for word call back the phrase to you, you don't even have to let them know its there or has a phrase on it, but they will see it once they get to the location.

Try to do the same in a DMT trip, place this same tablet. Now have someone unaware of it call back the phrase, but not just one person, to match reality every person should be able to call back that phrase.

 

[jamie]

"If you place a tree infront of both of them, they may veiw the tree different, but there eyes will both see a brown tree with green leaves."

What is the difference between viewing and seeing..really?

You are making one thing more important than the other..how do we know that the way one views that trees isn't more accurate than the other?

I understand what you are saying but I just dont think it really means that much..it's missing the whole point. They way you view something IS a huge part of the way you see it..and that view in turn reflects the path one takes in the world and the way they choose to interact with it..

Is sight rally so much more important than conception?..and if so, why?

The brown tree with green leaves is just an image..some people see dollar signs and other people see life..that should be respected..something that gives us air to breath and is an exosystem unto itself..

That is what is what is important..the image is nothing..seeing is something that goes beyond visual data..and if we as a race really cannot see that..than I think we are fucked..reality is not a 1 dimensional thing.

 

[Cheeto]

Don't forget you can also touch that tree to confirm its there, and i don't care what view of the tree you have or how you see it, which is different from eye site, no one will put there hand threw it like its not a physical item.

Your speaking of the view a person has of the tree, not the fact that the tree is there, look at the tablet example i gave. I think its kinda pointless to argue that reality is just a hallucination, there are many aspects that prove otherwise, which is where the term hallucination came from, something outside of the physical reality, not the personal view or experince.

Your making something more complicated than it actaully is, the tree is there, no one will say it isn't.

 

[jamie]

I did not say anything about reality being a hallucination..what I am saying is that all modalities are valid..and each one is an integral part of a much larger, more defined whole.

If worldview isn't just as important a thing than why does it exist?..and why does it play such a defining role?

Simply looking at or touching something is only part of the picture that makes up reality..otherwise things like cultural paradigms would not exist..science doesnt want to look at this stuff outside of maybe anthropology becasue it is a much deeper and more complex issue, and relies mush more heavily on complex dynamics within certain situations..but that doesn't make it any less valid in the end.. You cannot segregate things and then say this part over his IS reality..what of the rest?

 

[Cheeto]

I also did not say that these things are not important, i agree with you that they are important. Its a fact that you have an experience when you take a drug, experiences is what life is made of. But the physical world is more known do be truthful because of consistancy, any one can test it and get the same result, what solid science is based on.

If there where a drug that threw you into a world that was just as consistant as this one science would have no choice but to say it is another world, not a hallucination.

Truly world view is not even important to the world itself, one is a view, the other is a thing that exists. This kinda goes back to what i was saying in earlier discussions, that reality is a constant, under these condictions these laws apply. Do you think the universe will change because of how you view it? If so, please change it to a more desireable place so we can all be happy.

Solid science(Not theoretical) will only focus on things it can prove, it want make assumptions or claims without solid evidence to support it, i for one am glad for this fact. If it wern't that way then you could go ahead and forget about teaching people things because you would have to prove every thing yourself to verify it is so and not just the claim of a person who has no evidence to back hes claim up.

The difference is we can prove the physical world. This proof says alot more than a theoretical reality hallucination, thats how it is more valid. If you have a hallucination tell you its god and to go kill a bunch of people, are you going to trust it and do as it says? No, because you where aware that you where hallucinating, and that was not god.

If you don't agree then you don't agree, but thats my logical mind at work, and i really don't have much else to say about it.

 

[jamie]

"Truly world view is not even important to the world itself, one is a view, the other is a thing that exists"

You are still segregating things and saying one is more important than the other..We exist..The world exists..we effect change in the world through the way we relate to it..the way we relate to it comes from our world view..world views directly correspond to how humans interact wth the world itself..so tell me how that is not important to the world itself? The way these things are woven together is what is real..anything else is just a piece of the picture.

It's like saying an idea is not real..well then what is it?

Just becasue you can see something and touch it doesnt mean that is necessarily an accurate conception of the RELEVANCE of the thing..is relevance not important? is it not real? You can see the forest for the trees or you can see the trees for the forest..

 

[Cheeto]

I thought of a way to sum up what i'm saying.

It is more valid to know a result rather than to theories a result.

 

[burnt]

It amazes me how some philosophical concepts about subjectively and objectivity which are not even correct have ruined an entire generations ability to understand science.

I ask how many of you took philosophy courses in University? Did you also take science courses?

There is a great deal of evidence that many kinds of hallucinations are not real. The simplest is an optical illusion.

 

[kyrolima]

It amazes me how some philosophical concepts about subjectively and objectivity which are not even correct have ruined an entire generations ability to understand science.

I ask how many of you took philosophy courses in University? Did you also take science courses?

There is a great deal of evidence that many kinds of hallucinations are not real. The simplest is an optical illusion.

Maybe some of these hallcucinations are unreal and a product of imagination.
But i strongly believe that some of these "images" have their source in the spirit world.

Just my 2 cents, AGAIN. But burnt, you keep saying the same thing all the time too. You don't believe in aliens and entities.. You think it's all made up by your clever mind.

 

[Cheeto]

It amazes me how some philosophical concepts about subjectively and objectivity which are not even correct have ruined an entire generations ability to understand science.

I ask how many of you took philosophy courses in University? Did you also take science courses?

There is a great deal of evidence that many kinds of hallucinations are not real. The simplest is an optical illusion.

Yes burnt i hear you. sadly, i feel if i were born in the 40's i would have a a better chance to get a better education. Which is crazy because we learn more as time goes on, education should be better now, but it is not unless you goto a private or home school, but i'm poor and had just a mom, my only choice was public school. I could take it upon myself now, which i do try, but i have so much catching up its like i never even went to school.You can't really blame young people for a down trend in the education that is taught to them, blame the people responsible for it, whats with the board of education??? Why do they feel that a hole class needs to stop learning so one person who can't understand can catch up?? I though thats what ya hold people back a grade for, don't hold the hole school back!

I really can't wait for someone to do something about it, i would, but really what could i do? File a complaint, would it even be heard?

 

[Cheeto]

Burnt, also look at my weird bird story, i assure this is a 100% truth. What was actually happening is unkown to me. You could say i was letting off some kind of scent, but what scent can a human let off to attract animals?

Normally if you stare at a bird i flys off. All these accounts happened in a 2 year range, and no it did not always work, i didn't keep records, but i would say atleast 30% of the times i tried it, it did work. And in on occasion the bird came to me and ran away for a total of six times. Its really that one account(All of those) of the whole animal attraction that leaves me puzzled.

Also, i don't even try it anymore, and it dosen't happen anymore.