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SAFE d-Limonene+calcium hydroxide Tek?
- Thread starter Dorge
- Start date
HyperQuill
Rising Star
I figured I'd mention this, since my friend was confused when first trying this tek out with mimosa.
If you make the mix too wet (i.e. watery) when basifying it doesn't seem to be a problem. Simply let the paste dry out a bit and then mix as normal. My friend is new to extractions however, so I don't know if this affects yields or not, or if other factors are at work. My guess is that any complications as a result of too much water would be related to dilution, affecting ph levels. That and it just takes more time because you have to wait for it to evaporate.
I'm also under the impression that one cannot add too much CaOH - that is, too much won't ruin the tek, though I suppose it is a waste of CaOH. My friend just added another 20-30 grams (on top of the original 25) to help dry things out a bit faster, but found that it didn't really help and didn't want to waste his CaOh so he just let it dry naturally (almost completely, just to be safe) before adding the d-limo. Don't know yields but it doesn't appear to have any negative effect.
Can anyone else offer some insights into the mechanics of this step in the dry STB teks? Is the reason for using less water simply to eliminate or maybe reduce the time needed to dry the mix? Will any water in the mix affect yields from mimosa, or does the root bark bind the water like cactus does?
If you make the mix too wet (i.e. watery) when basifying it doesn't seem to be a problem. Simply let the paste dry out a bit and then mix as normal. My friend is new to extractions however, so I don't know if this affects yields or not, or if other factors are at work. My guess is that any complications as a result of too much water would be related to dilution, affecting ph levels. That and it just takes more time because you have to wait for it to evaporate.
I'm also under the impression that one cannot add too much CaOH - that is, too much won't ruin the tek, though I suppose it is a waste of CaOH. My friend just added another 20-30 grams (on top of the original 25) to help dry things out a bit faster, but found that it didn't really help and didn't want to waste his CaOh so he just let it dry naturally (almost completely, just to be safe) before adding the d-limo. Don't know yields but it doesn't appear to have any negative effect.
Can anyone else offer some insights into the mechanics of this step in the dry STB teks? Is the reason for using less water simply to eliminate or maybe reduce the time needed to dry the mix? Will any water in the mix affect yields from mimosa, or does the root bark bind the water like cactus does?
balaganist
Rising Star
SWIM's first attempt at this tek resulted in a watery mix of MHRB and CaOH. This affected the first pull, where the excess water came down with the limonene when filtering, which then diluted the vinegar when that was added. This most probably made the first pull less effective; however, since SWIM was squeezing the mix when filtering, all excess water came out in the first step. Subsequent pulls seemed to be more effective.
Basically, SWIM reckons its not too much of an issue since you will be doing multiple pulls anyway..
Basically, SWIM reckons its not too much of an issue since you will be doing multiple pulls anyway..
My FOAF's Dog's Mother's Aunt loves this tek. The best way that HE has found is to weigh your acetate when you get it, freebase it, and extract with limonene. You'll get that delicious goo. Assume a 10% loss, (though probably not near that high, this way you still get excess instead of undershooting). Say I had 1.1 grams of acetate. Freebase and pull with limonene. Evaporate the limonene and assume you have 1 gram. Dissolve this gram in iso right in the evap dish (just the minimum iso needed to lift it all) and add one gram of parsley or another herb of your choice. Tilt the dish to the side and stir it in. Let it evaporate. BANG, you've got 1:1 parsley to dmt. 60 mg or parsley is like 30 mg of DMT. Smoke it like weeeeeed. Haha, works wonderfully.
Hi everyone,
Sorry for not responding sooner but I'm real bizzy these daze and hardly ever have time to post. Don't have much time rite now either but I'll try to answer as many questions as I can.
As far as getting your acetate salt goo to solidify, good luck. I don't think it's possible. Swim has gotten freebase goo to solidify, but only after enhancing herb, he noticed somewhat solidified "peanut butter" on the side of the dish, which he scraped up, so he now has a little jar of pure fb alkaloids that look similar to what one gets after evapping a toluene pull.
So it should be theoretically possible to get a semisolid freebase, however keep in mind there's jungle spice in there so you'll probly never get xtls. But who wants xtls anyway? Sure they look pretty, but enhanced leaf is much easier to work with and much less conspicuous.
So, that having been said... what's the best way to get enhanced leaf?
Swim does not advocate evapping limo as the final step to getting fb. This is because limo does not evap cleanly. 69ron sez he likes the taste of a little limo on his spice, and if so then power to you... however limonene, while nontoxic, is considered a lung irritant, and I don't really see any point in smoking it. Certainly not when iso evaps 100% clean, and quicker than limo.
So, here's my ideal way to do it:
Use limo for your initial separation of alkaloids from plan material, whether you do this with a dry STB tek or a more "traditional" wet tek is up to you. Point is, you get your limo with your alkaloids in it and separate it from the plant material, etc. Then salt out using vinegar or some other acid. As mentioned earlier citric will work but you'll have excess left over. Another possibility Swim's been meaning to try is using phosphoric acid... excess phosphoric can be precipitated using calcium carbonate. The lack of a fizzing reaction indicates all the phosphoric has been precipitated. One can then filter out the calcium phosphate and excess calcium carbonate, leaving behind an aqueous solution of pure alkaloid phosphate salts. This can then be evaporated quite easily. If you don't have a food dehydrator, Swim has a friend who does it in her oven on low... Swim personally uses a hair dryer. It's not hard to figure out ways to evap water.
Anyway once you have your gooey salts, I really think your best bet is to redissolve in a little bit of hot distilled water (use roughly one ounce of water per pound of bark). Then in an eyedropper bottle add saturated sodium carbonate solution, followed by iso. The iso floats to the top... then use the eyedropper to suck off the iso, evap it, and repeat. This removes most of the sodium carbonate. Once the iso is evapped, redissolve the goo in anhydrous iso, which will not dissolve the sodium carbonate. Filter or pour off carefully to remove the sodium carbonate and evap your iso onto some leaf.
If you want the weight of your final product, simply weigh the leaf before and after. Subtract the original weight from the final weight and you have your yield.
Of course one could simply add the sodium carbonate directly to the gooey salts. Swim tried this last time and it does work... however it's a pain in the ass trying to dissolve the alkaloids when they're trapped amongst that much sodium carbonate. Swim prefers using the isopropanol layer separation so that once the iso is evapped, there's barely any sodium carbonate getting in the way of redissolving the goo. Last time swim did this he only had 70mg of sodium carbonate left after redissolution... that's such a small amount compared to the 9g of dimitri he had, that he probably could've simply evapped everything on some leaf without even bothering to remove the sodium carbonate (but he's a stickler for purity so he does it anyway).
BTW... anyone notice an incredible difference in the quality of the spice produced by this method? Everyone who's tried swim's limo spice agrees there's a night and day difference between it and the petroleum stuff.
Hope that helps... I'm about to hit the road again but I'll try to check back soon and see if there's more questions.
Much love,
SyZ
Sorry for not responding sooner but I'm real bizzy these daze and hardly ever have time to post. Don't have much time rite now either but I'll try to answer as many questions as I can.
As far as getting your acetate salt goo to solidify, good luck. I don't think it's possible. Swim has gotten freebase goo to solidify, but only after enhancing herb, he noticed somewhat solidified "peanut butter" on the side of the dish, which he scraped up, so he now has a little jar of pure fb alkaloids that look similar to what one gets after evapping a toluene pull.
So it should be theoretically possible to get a semisolid freebase, however keep in mind there's jungle spice in there so you'll probly never get xtls. But who wants xtls anyway? Sure they look pretty, but enhanced leaf is much easier to work with and much less conspicuous.
So, that having been said... what's the best way to get enhanced leaf?
Swim does not advocate evapping limo as the final step to getting fb. This is because limo does not evap cleanly. 69ron sez he likes the taste of a little limo on his spice, and if so then power to you... however limonene, while nontoxic, is considered a lung irritant, and I don't really see any point in smoking it. Certainly not when iso evaps 100% clean, and quicker than limo.
So, here's my ideal way to do it:
Use limo for your initial separation of alkaloids from plan material, whether you do this with a dry STB tek or a more "traditional" wet tek is up to you. Point is, you get your limo with your alkaloids in it and separate it from the plant material, etc. Then salt out using vinegar or some other acid. As mentioned earlier citric will work but you'll have excess left over. Another possibility Swim's been meaning to try is using phosphoric acid... excess phosphoric can be precipitated using calcium carbonate. The lack of a fizzing reaction indicates all the phosphoric has been precipitated. One can then filter out the calcium phosphate and excess calcium carbonate, leaving behind an aqueous solution of pure alkaloid phosphate salts. This can then be evaporated quite easily. If you don't have a food dehydrator, Swim has a friend who does it in her oven on low... Swim personally uses a hair dryer. It's not hard to figure out ways to evap water.
Anyway once you have your gooey salts, I really think your best bet is to redissolve in a little bit of hot distilled water (use roughly one ounce of water per pound of bark). Then in an eyedropper bottle add saturated sodium carbonate solution, followed by iso. The iso floats to the top... then use the eyedropper to suck off the iso, evap it, and repeat. This removes most of the sodium carbonate. Once the iso is evapped, redissolve the goo in anhydrous iso, which will not dissolve the sodium carbonate. Filter or pour off carefully to remove the sodium carbonate and evap your iso onto some leaf.
If you want the weight of your final product, simply weigh the leaf before and after. Subtract the original weight from the final weight and you have your yield.
Of course one could simply add the sodium carbonate directly to the gooey salts. Swim tried this last time and it does work... however it's a pain in the ass trying to dissolve the alkaloids when they're trapped amongst that much sodium carbonate. Swim prefers using the isopropanol layer separation so that once the iso is evapped, there's barely any sodium carbonate getting in the way of redissolving the goo. Last time swim did this he only had 70mg of sodium carbonate left after redissolution... that's such a small amount compared to the 9g of dimitri he had, that he probably could've simply evapped everything on some leaf without even bothering to remove the sodium carbonate (but he's a stickler for purity so he does it anyway).
BTW... anyone notice an incredible difference in the quality of the spice produced by this method? Everyone who's tried swim's limo spice agrees there's a night and day difference between it and the petroleum stuff.
Hope that helps... I'm about to hit the road again but I'll try to check back soon and see if there's more questions.
Much love,
SyZ
Oh yeah almost forgot... with regards to acetone, Swim doesn't trust it cuz he tried an evap test on some ace hardware xtra strngth acetone and it left a bunch of crap behind that did not look good. Hence why swim prefers anhydrous iso to acetone for recovery of freebased spice.
If you have lab grade, perhaps it is ok... but still, iso is bound to be less toxic than acetone. Sure it's found in the human body but so is feces... that doesn't mean you wanna smoke it! Iso evaps totally clean, and has no harmful effects as long as you don't drink a shitload of it (even then it just makes your stomach hurt). The safety profile for iso is awesome.
You can get anhydrous iso online fairly cheaply, it's used for cleaning computers. Or you can make your own by adding NaCl to 91% iso... the NaCl pulls the water down to the bottom. Siphon off the almost pure iso from the top, it's maybe 98% at this point... then dry out the remaining water with baked epsom salts.
If you have lab grade, perhaps it is ok... but still, iso is bound to be less toxic than acetone. Sure it's found in the human body but so is feces... that doesn't mean you wanna smoke it! Iso evaps totally clean, and has no harmful effects as long as you don't drink a shitload of it (even then it just makes your stomach hurt). The safety profile for iso is awesome.
You can get anhydrous iso online fairly cheaply, it's used for cleaning computers. Or you can make your own by adding NaCl to 91% iso... the NaCl pulls the water down to the bottom. Siphon off the almost pure iso from the top, it's maybe 98% at this point... then dry out the remaining water with baked epsom salts.
balaganist
Rising Star
Thanks - SWIM says he will be trying the ISO method for his next batch of Changa
fuckyourmother
Rising Star
goin get raped!
balaganist
Rising Star
SyZyGyPSy said:
I have a question about this - what is supposed to be happening when your poor the iso into the sodium carbonate / dmt acetate solution ? What is the purpose of the sodium carbonate, is it to pull the alkaloids across into the iso?
Thx
balaganist
Rising Star
Jorkest said:
Thanks - SWIM is learning a lot atm!
SWIM decided to try this as he was already half-way through another round of ron69's tek. Next round he said he will be trying SWIY's fumerate tek Jorkest - thanks for posting that.
balaganist
Rising Star
Just to update, SWIM had success using Syzygypsy's suggestion of altering the freebasing part of ron69's tek to using IPA and sodium carbonate. The final product (Changa) ends up much less sticky, it still has the nice limonene smell but seems to be a lot cleaner than when using Limonene for the freebasing.
artaylor7785
love
ok SWIM is in the middle of this tek, and i was wondering what results ppl have been getting from 69 rons tek withough syzygypsy's sugggestion? i still havent decided if im going to tweek it with syzys idea or just go for the goo, i dont mind the goo as long as its still "close" to pure spice, any suggestions??
balaganist
Rising Star
artaylor7785 said:
I would go ahead with syzygypsy's alteration... the only problem is knowing how much spice you got. You can always evap the IPA and see what you get. Its just difficult to weigh if it ends up sticky. So makes it hard to know how much leaf to add if you want a certain ratio. Or just guess and evap with your leaf... I did it once and it turned out good, but the changa was not as strong as I would have liked. So if you do go that route be careful not to add too much leaf.
..and the goo is def still good jungle spice .. no need to worry about that. Using IPA instead of limonene for the final step will def get you a cleaner product.
Good luck!!
I was meaning to try and write these up into a combined tek, but I have been busy with Jorkest's STB limonene tek!
artaylor7785
love
thank you kindly.....im off for the next step....ill keep a log on here to let yall know how it goes
rumplestiltskin
Rising Star
^
Curious about that, too. SWIM would prefer using ethanol, though. Is the small amount of water in 91% IPA or 190 proof ethanol enough to carry the hydroxides into the alcohol and taint the final product? If not then using ethanol to clean the acetate in Ron's tek would make it 100% food grade.
Would standard Everclear be the best bet for this?
Curious about that, too. SWIM would prefer using ethanol, though. Is the small amount of water in 91% IPA or 190 proof ethanol enough to carry the hydroxides into the alcohol and taint the final product? If not then using ethanol to clean the acetate in Ron's tek would make it 100% food grade.
^Jorkest said:
Would standard Everclear be the best bet for this?
The reason for using IPA instead of ETOH is the solubility of sodium carbonate. Swim has read that sodium carbonate is slightly soluble in ethanol, but not so in anhydrous iso. If you use 91% iso for redissolving the freebase goo, the 9% water will still dissolve some sodium carbonate. However you can use 91% for the "pulling" phase, but ideally you want dry iso for the "cleaning" phase.
To clarify, it goes like this:
1. Acetic salt goo is redissolved in small amount of water and freebased with sodium carbonate. Iso of any grade is then added, it doesn't matter what %age since it's mixing with water anyway. Ethanol -could- be used for this, but elsewhere on this forum someone posted an experiment that showed that ethanol does not separate nearly as efficiently as iso. Even the iso separation is not perfect, the top layer still contains a little water and hence a little sodium carbonate. But it's a much better separation than ethanol would be.
2. Iso is pulled off and evaporated. This leaves behind freebase goo, and a little sodium carbonate from the little bit of water that was in the top iso layer. If one used ethanol, there would be much more sodium carbonate here.
3. Anhydrous iso is then used to redissolve the goo without dissolving the sodium carbonate. If one used 91% iso for this, the 9% water would dissolve sodium carbonate. Also if one used ethanol for this, some sodium carbonate would be dissolved, even if one managed to get pure ethanol (which everclear is NOT). Also pure ethanol is much more expensive than iso, and is usually denatured (= NOT food grade!). Dry iso can easily be created from 91% using NaCl and baked epsom salt. It can also be purchased online for relatively cheap (compared to pure ethanol), from soap making supply places and such.
Iso is practically a food grade chemical in Swim's eyes, and swim is very particular about such things, hence why he invented this tek. Swim doesn't even like acetone cuz he's not convinced of its safety profile. However iso evaporates completely clean, leaving no residue, and he has read up extensively on the health effects from chronic inhalation of vapors and the effects of ingestation. It's perfectly safe. The worst thing that can happen if large amounts are ingested is gastric disturbance. Chronic exposure to vapors shows no effect on health. It is VERY safe to work with. And much cheaper and more effective than pure ethanol would be, thanks to stupid laws that try to poison us in order to keep us from drinking it without paying taxes.
To clarify, it goes like this:
1. Acetic salt goo is redissolved in small amount of water and freebased with sodium carbonate. Iso of any grade is then added, it doesn't matter what %age since it's mixing with water anyway. Ethanol -could- be used for this, but elsewhere on this forum someone posted an experiment that showed that ethanol does not separate nearly as efficiently as iso. Even the iso separation is not perfect, the top layer still contains a little water and hence a little sodium carbonate. But it's a much better separation than ethanol would be.
2. Iso is pulled off and evaporated. This leaves behind freebase goo, and a little sodium carbonate from the little bit of water that was in the top iso layer. If one used ethanol, there would be much more sodium carbonate here.
3. Anhydrous iso is then used to redissolve the goo without dissolving the sodium carbonate. If one used 91% iso for this, the 9% water would dissolve sodium carbonate. Also if one used ethanol for this, some sodium carbonate would be dissolved, even if one managed to get pure ethanol (which everclear is NOT). Also pure ethanol is much more expensive than iso, and is usually denatured (= NOT food grade!). Dry iso can easily be created from 91% using NaCl and baked epsom salt. It can also be purchased online for relatively cheap (compared to pure ethanol), from soap making supply places and such.
Iso is practically a food grade chemical in Swim's eyes, and swim is very particular about such things, hence why he invented this tek. Swim doesn't even like acetone cuz he's not convinced of its safety profile. However iso evaporates completely clean, leaving no residue, and he has read up extensively on the health effects from chronic inhalation of vapors and the effects of ingestation. It's perfectly safe. The worst thing that can happen if large amounts are ingested is gastric disturbance. Chronic exposure to vapors shows no effect on health. It is VERY safe to work with. And much cheaper and more effective than pure ethanol would be, thanks to stupid laws that try to poison us in order to keep us from drinking it without paying taxes.