Scientific racism, militarism, and the new atheists

[fairbanks]

You still seem to mix up politics with the scientific method. Anything can be misused by politics and that means it is an issue of politics and not of ALL the other things in the world that can be misused by politics.

No, because many scientists have put forward their racist theories and they haven't been used politically. It's not black and white. Besides, once science is used politically that doesn't mean that the issue becomes solely political...

& Please note, I'm not saying science is racist, or anything of the sort. I'm simply saying that racism is a scientific issue.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

No, because many scientists have put forward their racist theories...

Theories that hold no water when subjected to scientific scrutiny.

You seem to be confusing the scientific method with the humans who are warping it to justify their own biases. This type of activity is, by definition, not science.

As to the theories not being used "politically":
"The political is personal, you suckas should know"

 

[The Traveler]

No, because many scientists have put forward their racist theories...

Theories that hold no water when subjected to scientific scrutiny.

You seem to be confusing the scientific method with the humans who are warping it to justify their own biases. This type of activity is, by definition, not science.

That.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Michal_R]

19th / 20th century eugenics had been considered as hard core "science" back then (i.e. based on the use of what had been considered back then as proper scientific method). Are we really that smarter than our grandfathers were, to be able to finally distinguish "true scientific method" from "political abuse"?

 

[The Traveler]

You still seem to mix up politics with the scientific method. Anything can be misused by politics and that means it is an issue of politics and not of ALL the other things in the world that can be misused by politics.

No, because many scientists have put forward their racist theories and they haven't been used politically. It's not black and white. Besides, once science is used politically that doesn't mean that the issue becomes solely political...

So therefor anything that is misused by politics is not the blame of politics but by the item that is misused?

You are not making much sense here, that is the same as stating that a rape victim is to blame for wearing sexual clothing.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Michal_R]

... So therefor anything that is misused by politics is not the blame of politics but by the item that is misused?

Of course not But we should recognize that science is always to some extent political (it always serves political goals; otherwise it wouldn´t be financially and politically supported). There is no objective divide between politics and science. SnozzleBerry recalled the feminist "personal is political" - is science exemption from this?

I also wish that science was separate from politics. But it is not in reality.

 

[fairbanks]

So therefor anything that is misused by politics is not the blame of politics but by the item that is misused?

Don't twist my words please. I didn't say that it's the tool to blame and not politics, I said:

doesn't mean that the issue becomes solely political...

It's much more complex then just blaming politicians...

Here's a paper on the history of Scientific Racism:

http://personal.uncc.edu/jmarks/pubs/Enc%20race%20Sci%20Racism%20Hist.pdf

You guys seem to be stuck with the idea that if the racist theories are pseudo scientific than we can just dismiss the issue...

 

[Mr.Peabody]

I applaud your efforts, fairbanks. I know it's tough to debate this kind of thing, but to make a good argument, you must know the subject you are arguing about, and like others have said, I think you are missing a piece.

Science never claims to get anything right on the first try. So, these racist ideas may initially be created by people claiming science, but where real science comes in is when these ideas are disproved. Science is humanity's best attempt at objectivity, but people's will is a powerful thing to fight. It creates bias.

So when Snozz said "exactly", it was because you proved his point.

The more science has uncovered about the human genome, the more the idea of race disappears. Race isn't even distinguishable from a scientific standpoint. It truly is skin-deep, and barely at that.

Just like crooked preachers can warp the truth of the Bible (there are truths in there, but not The Truth), so too can people warp the truth of science. It's only a tool.

Edit:
Just thought of this. I think your aim is slightly off. Your arguments are sound, but in this case, your beef lies not with science. What you've shown is the pitfalls of how people can take anything and manipulate it to suit their desires. Science has shown us that anyone claiming evidence to support racist views should be regarded with suspicion.

 

[The Traveler]

You guys seem to be stuck with the idea that if the racist theories are pseudo scientific than we can just dismiss the issue...

Pseudoscience is not science, simple as that. So in your case you should blame pseudoscience and how politics misuse that.

And again, politics can misuse anything. You are still making a false dilemma by singling out (pseudo)science.

p.s. we are not dismissing the issue, we are stating that you better go to the root of the problem (politics) instead of treating the symptoms (pseudoscience misused for racist views).


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[fairbanks]

Listen, Scientific racism is the use of scientific techniques and hypotheses to sanction the belief in racial superiority, inferiority or racism.

Now obviously they're gonna come to some heavy pseudo scientific conclusions. BUT this does not erase the bond between science and racism, their history, and the issue in general. I never said that racism is a solid science and not pseudoscience, I simply said it was an issue involved with science.

 

[olympus mon]

Science is the best way for our species to understand the natural world, period. Is it flawless, no but science has the humility others dont. Its not too many topics and theory's that science community will claim as un deniable.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Look...if the issue you want to discuss is racism or sexism (in any discipline, science or otherwise), we can do that. However, the issue isn't Science. The issue is the neo-colonialist/imperialist culture in which these academic institutions exist. The dominant culture gives these ideas validity and sanctuary. Racism and patriarchy are woven into the very fabric of this society...and that fabric is omnipresent in all disciplines.

So, in this case, the problem is not science...the problem is the systemic racism of dominant culture and its manifestation in scientific circles through pseudoscientific methodologies. To use a popular metaphor here, picking apart Science won't give you the source of the racism you are focused on, any more than taking apart a radio receiver will give you the broadcaster.

 

[fairbanks]

Science is the best way for our species to understand the natural world, period. Is it flawless, no but science has the humility others dont. Its not too many topics and theory's that science community will claim as un deniable.

I disagree, I think there are much better ways of understanding the world than with quantification and objective data. I also don't agree that science has the humility that others don't, I can't tell you how many times I'm confronted with scientific hubris.

 

[The Traveler]

Listen

I am listening, don't worry.

Scientific racism is the use of scientific techniques and hypotheses to sanction the belief in racial superiority, inferiority or racism.

Now obviously they're gonna come to some heavy pseudo scientific conclusions. BUT this does not erase the bond between science and racism, their history, and the issue in general. I never said that racism is a solid science and not pseudoscience, I simply said it was an issue involved with science.

And over the course of history science has shown that it overcomes this by overthrowing wrong evidence used by racist people to make their own agenda. That people still like to point at science for being once used by politicians for racism are people who want to use this again as a political tool, like you.

On a more informative and simplified note: science does not prove anything, it tries to DISPROVE anything that is falsifiable. Everything falsifiable that we are unable to disprove is what we use in daily life.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[benzyme]

I can't tell you how many times I'm confronted with scientific hubris.

probably because you propose thought experiments with no tangible evidence.

 

[DeMenTed]

... So therefor anything that is misused by politics is not the blame of politics but by the item that is misused?

Of course not But we should recognize that science is always to some extent political (it always serves political goals; otherwise it wouldn´t be financially and politically supported). There is no objective divide between politics and science. SnozzleBerry recalled the feminist "personal is political" - is science exemption from this?

I also wish that science was separate from politics. But it is not in reality.

Science is a completely separate thing from politics. Maybe nasa or weapon building science is embroiled in politics but science itself has nothing to do with politics imo

 

[fairbanks]

Look...if the issue you want to discuss is racism or sexism (in any discipline, science or otherwise), we can do that. However, the issue isn't Science.

Was that not my argument all along? My issue was not with science solely, it was with racism in science hence: scientific racism.

 

[fairbanks]

I can't tell you how many times I'm confronted with scientific hubris.

probably because you propose thought experiments with no tangible evidence.

no tangible evidence? i've given you many papers and articles on scientific racism, I'm not making an empty argument, it's a real term/issue. you on the other hand, have not given any tangible evidence to back up your flat rejection of a topic (scientific racism) that's been written on extensively, and then you go on to believe in "purely objective" science. talk about scientific hubris...

 

[SnozzleBerry]

My issue was not with science solely, it was with racism in science hence: scientific racism.

This analysis falls short of saying anything meaningful.

"Scientific racism" is a meaningless phrase that gives zero context to the issue you appear to want to discuss. The issue is racism, and its manifestation in science. Analyzing racism in science, without examining racism as a construct in the broader society, is pointless.

To reiterate, Science is situated within a broader cultural construct. Manifestations of racism within Science are endemic of that broader culture. Deconstructing racist manifestations within Science is meaningless without a broader societal analysis. Only with an analysis of racism within the societal construct do the microcosmic patterns of racism within science have any context/meaning. Therefore, it makes significantly more sense, imo, to deconstruct/talk about racism as a societal issue, and then examine its manifestation in Science, rather than coining meaningless terms like "scientific racism" and attempting to analyze decontextualized phenomena.

 

[benzyme]

what do you suggest as an alternative method to answering questions?
faith and mysticism? shall we go back to the dark ages, where illnesses were referred
to as "demons"?