Shamanism

[Koornut]

Where is the Curandero, arcana, icaros, holding space?... where is the hands on healing?

I think the technology can translate globally. Particularly the tools used to "hold space". The music.

Ghettohuasca - An umbrella term to define the globalisation of the use of MAOI and DMT, with all it's cultural, and ceremonial variants.

Some cultures have obviously had a head start with its use.

But that don't mean ol' whitey can't catch up.

I use the prefix ghetto because it seems as though people are beginning to "find the others" more and more. Probably trending into the future too I guess. And the use of these substances is certainly creating a separation vibe of those who've smoked and those whovn't. So we grouping up. But we still a minority. Hence Ghetto.

We all got plans to build the super-awesome-shamanic-healing-centre-and-plus-it's-free lying somewhere in the waters of our consciousness.
So Build it. Learn the ways. Hold the space.
Easy.

Y'all are Shaman as EXPLETIVE

Break some laws but for gaias sake don't tell anyone about it. She counting on you to hold the space long enough to bring some more along so that we might have a bright idea to pick up some plastic out the ocean and impregnate mars with greenery.

Meh. Or not.

 

[ganesh]

Where is the Curandero, arcana, icaros, holding space?... where is the hands on healing?

I think the technology can translate globally. Particularly the tools used to "hold space". The music.

Ghettohuasca - An umbrella term to define the globalisation of the use of MAOI and DMT, with all it's cultural, and ceremonial variants.

Some cultures have obviously had a head start with its use.

But that don't mean ol' whitey can't catch up.

Hmmm... Unfortunately i can see many holes in what you are saying. Certainly Ayahuasca healing can be used globally, but without Ayahuasca vine, the mother teacher plant is absent: Ayahuasca isn't MAOI and DMT-(That's pharmahuasca), and not the same plant spirit.

No doubt 'whitey', can catch up, and some already have...(that is as long as they've done the dieting, and learnt how to sing icaros)..or like i say if not then they are just self deluded glorified Ayahuasca drinkers akin to children in nappies, drinking amongst masters who have trained skills, that they most definately will not have or even understand.

:lol:

 

[Koornut]

Where is the Curandero, arcana, icaros, holding space?... where is the hands on healing?

I think the technology can translate globally. Particularly the tools used to "hold space". The music.

Ghettohuasca - An umbrella term to define the globalisation of the use of MAOI and DMT, with all it's cultural, and ceremonial variants.

Some cultures have obviously had a head start with its use.

But that don't mean ol' whitey can't catch up.

No doubt 'whitey', can catch up, and some already have...(that is as long as they've done the dieting, and learnt how to sing icaros)..or like i say if not then they are just self deluded glorified Ayahuasca drinkers akin to children in nappies, drinking amongst masters who have trained skills, that they most definately will not have or even understand.

:lol:

Haha no doubt indeed 8)
But the trains a rollin' long the tracks, and the knowledge be out there for all to consume. And you know the people are going to want to consume. No matter where they are.
Are we not all children in nappies, suckling on the green teat of the planet?
Can the mother not come in many forms?
Or does that take us down the path of monotheism again, if she were to turn out to be everywhere and not just poking her mouth through one family of vine and screaming at whoever will listen?
Best keep the practices locked up deep in the ever-unexpanding jungle, while the planet burns.

What I'm trying to communicate is the critical situation our planet is facing, a problem too large for any group or even country to solve. So perhaps we need to hurry along and start showing the folk the light (choose you're poison at this point it don't really matter anyway its likely futile).
And perhaps this is all happening just in the time for worldwide communication technology. Or is it the other way around?
Anyway we should hurry up

 

[ganesh]

Are we not all children in nappies, suckling on the green teat of the planet?
Can the mother not come in many forms?
Or does that take us down the path of monotheism again, if she were to turn out to be everywhere and not just poking her mouth through one family of vine and screaming at whoever will listen?

Well, all i'm saying is that if someone is gonna want to be able to use Ayahuasca to help heal sick people, then they'd be best to learn from those who know how to do so, and also the mechanisms behind it, which is based on plant spirits.

Of course there are other Entheogens that are also used, however there is more to Shamanism than eating lots and lots of Entheogens. Shamans have to learn how to work with spirits, navigate these spiritual energetic realms, dispell negativity, offer protection, etc. These are indeed skills that need to be mastered. That explains the training.

Shamanism isn't necessarily for everyone, perhaps only for those who have a calling for it, or who have been let down by Western medicine. I would like to see trained Curandero's in the West operating as alternative therapy, as long as they are ethical and charging reasonable monies.

It is only a matter of time before they will eventually be able to offer their services legally Worldwide.

That being said, the last thing the World needs is people playing as Shamans who do not understand what they are doing, and cause more harm than good. That is a real possability and why we need Masters, not Kindergarden children in nappies.

 

[anne halonium]

still not feeling the indigenous hocus pocus thing.
not even remotely convinced its psychologically healthy even for beginners.

when i ate lophs and asked them what they thought,
they told me that no one owns them, indians are just passing thru like everyone else.

whatever indians do with plants is their track record.
the global halluciongenic cyber movement,
exceeds them.

when 1st world medicine combines with hallucinogens, sans hocus pocus,
we shall see true new age progress.

quite simply a new cyber hallucinogenic animal has evolved.
smarter, faster, better trained and educated, with far superior communications.
im gonna run with the future. natives are charming, but passe.......
the great age of indiana jones jungle psyche explorers was decades ago.
its good reading, but not exactly copy paste for us.


if ernest angley was doling out trips, would you buy into that?
same difference to me.

im sorta shocked this has turned into a medicine show anecdote recall.
anything else, its like OMG wheres the data and facts?

lots of us trip just fine, without kool aid.
and i consider hands on healing, without scalpels and anesthesia,
to be back handed molesty party trix.
peeps are always trying to paw me, halluciongens aint a good enough excuse.
( except MDA)

i just dont need indians to validate me.
you dont either.

 

[Jin]

healing aids,cancer and all that , where the heck is the proof ?

people hear such stories , rush to the jungle and end up being hurt :thumb_dow
pushing such stories , is reckless :thumb_dow

if the soul wants to heal itself , it will heal itself
the soul needs no shaman , the soul is God
look within

 

[travsha]

traditional shamanic ceremony.

^im anne halonium.
you better bet i ate lophs with indians in the 70s wholesale.
how vomity in the SW do ya wanna be about this.

I dont know what lophs are, but eating a bunch of drugs with indians doesnt mean you did a traditional ceremony with a shaman. Most natives are not shamans. Eating a bunch of drugs doesnt on its own make a ceremony. Drugs arent even needed in mnay cases....

I dont travel with an entourage or guides....

you should its how you can really get out in the stix and survive.
and once again best natives, are in the real woods.

I go deep into the woods - walking for days because there are no roads there. I survive just fine because I am responsible for myself.

You been curing illness lately? Better at healing then the shamans curing cancer, diabetes, paralysis and HIV? (I know shamans that have cured each of those in people that I personally knew before they were cured) It's no big deal if you havent -

palease.
"without med documentation, im gonna call heresy.
as we dont operate like that in the first world."

i am flattered though.
i play down the divine thing, especially with lophs

I dont normally like to call people out.

trav,
all the love,
but you cant possibly suggest
anne halonium is clueless on indians and hallucinogens (LOPHS)
in my world , aya is for people who cant eat lophs with the big kids.
^ just saying it from my humble perspective.
isnt everyone born NAC?
am i not the greatest heretic EVER with lophs.
i fell out of grace with those guys before lophs were almost extinct.
and they are almost extinct now.

no one who knows me could possibly wonder why i crusade on lophs and indian religion.

your not calling anyone out anyway...........

" anne halonium.........
sure ive tripped with indians.
i trip with anyone i could get at globally
for over 35 yrs ....did i miss anyone?"

im simply taking the position that the 1st world masters,
are the defacto masters now of the globe.
translate :nexians and our ilk rule.

and i think we can take the spritual high ground on this.
its an opinion im strong on from experience,
your mileage may vary.

I cant tell what you are trying to say.... A lot of words, but not much meaning that I can find....

I'm not sure if there is enough room in this ego filled thread for me to fit in a short post... But eating loads of psychedelics doesn't make you a shaman. People seem to always forget that it is primarily about healing others (just feeding them psychedelics doesn't count).

I totally agree. Way more to it.

The shaman does not heal. The shaman allows one to heal themselves. The plants are shamans themselves. They also allow people to heal themselves.

I'm a bit skeptical about those shamans curing cancer and stuff. Even the placebo effect has it's limits, but who knows? Maybe it doesn't. If shamans can cure cancer, then why are we wasting time with cancer research (which I think is a waste of time anyway)?

I didnt know what to think either.... Till I knew people who had cancer, then went to Peru, then came home healthy. I dont think it is the placebo effect personally.

Cancer treatment in USA where I live is a huge billion dollar industry. Chemo lowers your chance of survival yet doctors prescribe it anyways. Almost all doctors refuse chemo if they get cancer though, because they know it shortens your life more then the cancer in many (not all) cases, and because it often lowers your quality of life so much. It does make a lot of money though and anyone going to medical school will get indoctrinated into prescribing it.

And I am sure most doctors have just as much or more skepticism about shamans healing cancer.... If people assume it is fake, then they probably have little interest researching it. And then you gotta get some big company to fund the research - but who funds research unless they expect it will be a good investment for them financially?

One things for sure, if you want to apprentice as a Curandero in the Amazonian regions, then you're gonna have to 'diet' various plants in seclusion for days, weeks, months. You're gonna have to learn icaros, and become masterful at using tobacco, and drinking Ayahuasca, being able to see disease, suck it out, hold ceremony, sing protective arcanas, prescribe suitable plant remedies, ect, etc...

One thing that struck me about those ceremonies was that it is serious work, and is also a beautiful kind of 'living tradition', even with the Westernised twists. Certainly, in the most respectful way i do believe that those who haven't attended such ceremonies and drink at home, are without a doubt missing a lot of what a ceremony is all about; Where is the Curandero, arcana, icaros, holding space?... where is the hands on healing?

Whilst many might drink alone at home, listen to recorded icaros, smoke tobacco, and enjoy the headspace and Aya's natural healing ability, they are missing out on much more of the healing potential when used with a trained Curandero who's dieted plants and taken upon their spirits. There is simply no comparison.

People who drink alone at home, may be in for a shock if they do attend a ceremony with a trained Curandero, and realise that they are but kindergarden kids drinking with masters who have years of trained abilities that they have none of....:surprised

I agree with a lot of what you say. I had years under my belt of working with psychedelics before I ever sat in someone elses ceremony.... And what they were offering still was beyond my imagination.

Saw one shaman cure epilepsy with nothing but a song. The patient didnt drink Ayahuasca - just sat and had the shaman sing to him for 30 minutes till he was healed. That was 3 years ago and he has no symptoms of epilepsy still.

I drink on my own and with shamans. Been doing this for a long time and quite frequently. I learn a lot on my own but I learn the most when I watch the masters. Watching a master curandero is like watching a master guitar player or master chef - you can see the passion, the dedication and the experience.... And you understand how talented they are.

I think the technology can translate globally. Particularly the tools used to "hold space". The music.
..........
Some cultures have obviously had a head start with its use.

But that don't mean ol' whitey can't catch up.

The music does translate well. I know some gringo shamans who sing wonderful icaros and host fantastic ceremonies. Curanderismo isnt limited by skin color. These people did the same training, but in the time and effort.... And it paid off.

I learned how to sing in Quechua and Shipibo.... Takes a lot of effort to learn the languages enough, but I just share this as an example of other cultures being able to learn too. I even know a few curanderos who sing in English and have wonderful songs. I know some that sing only a little and mostly make music with instruments - but all of them did the traditional training and put in the time and work to learn the practice. Even the ones who dont sing often - they learned the traditional way first before making changes to make sure the changes they made were legitimate and effective.

I dont think you get the same effect listening to recorded icaros.... But I think anyone who wants to can learn how to create their own icaros.

 

[travsha]

healing aids,cancer and all that , where the heck is the proof ?

people hear such stories , rush to the jungle and end up being hurt :thumb_dow
pushing such stories , is reckless :thumb_dow

if the soul wants to heal itself , it will heal itself
the soul needs no shaman , the soul is God
look within

I dont think you should believe it till you see it.

But I have seen miracles too many times to keep doubting them, and when people are interested I will share the stories I know and will even help connect people to the healers that were effective for my friends. I think it would be unethical for me to withhold information that could save peoples lives.

The soul needs no shaman.... But sadly many people need help finding their soul and learning how to bring forth its potential. I know many people who were sick, visited a shaman, and then were better - and the results lasted. I dont think there is any sense judging someone because they needed a little help on their path. I dont judge a sick person from visiting the doctor, or judge a sad person for leaning on a friend.... We all need a little help sometimes.

 

[anne halonium]

"without med documentation, im gonna call heresy.
as we dont operate like that in the first world."

^what part of that is unclear?
been around the world, and been understood clearly.
when i wasnt, translators made sure i was understood.
id suggest you need more tutelage if you dont know the diff between mod med and witchcraft.
and if your guides dont know the difference , your being ripped off by charlatans.

does this kind of thinking extend to your grow and chem?

and you REALLY need to find out what a loph is.
as said, aya is for those who cant eat lophs.........

annie is never gonna apologize for modern medicine,
modern chem handling and safety , advanced grow teks,
or just plain common sense with drug tourism.
anne halonium.........looking out for you:thumb_up:

( and dont wander the third world alone peeps,
make sure your baggage train is loyal and well armed.
youll thank me)

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

healing aids,cancer and all that , where the heck is the proof ?

people hear such stories , rush to the jungle and end up being hurt :thumb_dow
pushing such stories , is reckless :thumb_dow

if the soul wants to heal itself , it will heal itself
the soul needs no shaman , the soul is God
look within

I think it was mckenna who said "shamans only pick patients they know will get better"

A shaman would turn away a person they can not help.

Honestly, we don't know the actual medicinal potential of many of these plants, though I'm willing to bet that they can treat many things effectively.

I also think science underestimates the power of the mind in healing and the effect many of these techniques have on it...

I think instilling others with false hope is wrong, yet this is not what I see the shamans doing...

-eg

 

[anne halonium]

i cant help but think,
that if i travelled the wilds of appalachia,
and, met pentacostal snake handlers,
got boozed up on sacramental moonshine,
chewed an oxy,
and and then got "saved" and "healed" by indigenous hillbillys,
then presented it with a straight face...........:?:

been there , done that also, it was ridiculous:!:
^ entertaining as hell indeed,
but hardly made me change my name to mary and become a disciple.

same logic for aya tourism IMO.
seriously, the snake is the only thing missing here, and thats the best part really.
that said,
if they learn how to do a medicine show with aya and anacondas,
im down for 2 tickets. front row please. i lost my opera glasses.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

i cant help but think,
that if i travelled the wilds of appalachia,
and, met pentacostal snake handlers,
got boozed up on sacramental moonshine,
chewed an oxy,
and and then got "saved" and "healed" by indigenous hillbillys,
then presented it with a straight face...........:?:

been there , done that also, it was ridiculous:!:
^ entertaining as hell indeed,
but hardly made me change my name to mary and become a disciple.

same logic for aya tourism IMO.
seriously, the snake is the only thing missing here, and thats the best part really.
that said,
if they learn how to do a medicine show with aya and anacondas,
im down for 2 tickets. front row please. i lost my opera glasses.

Medicine show?

I won't deny that there are far more imposters and con artists out there than actual shamans, but true shamanism is very different from most religious nonsense which claim a to heal.

These people are using actual medicines, this is the difference.

And many of these plants potential medicinal properties are not yet known.
And again, the mind can have far more to do with the physical body and healing than science gives it credit for.

When a shaman can drink ayahuasca, then sing into a person's mid-section, and then say "this person has stomach parasites", then the shaman gives him a plant that kills stomach parasites, this is real medicine.
...it may seem strange that the shaman claims he was able to "see" this person had parasites using ayahuasca and his voice, how ever modern science uses sonography (ultra sound) in the same way, so it's not unreasonable to think that an image can be generated using sound waves, the only thing unreasonable was the shaman did it without nuts and bolts technology, rather he had the sonograph of the jungle, a sound synesthesia which allows the shaman to see internal issues his patients may be having...it may be as simple as when you sing into a person's stomach at a specific frequency on yagé the look blue, but if they have stomach parasites and you do the same they may look red, or maybe the shaman actually can see the parasites.
Science would call this nonsense, yet I recall seeing a documentary, an Australian fellow and his pregnant wife, the shaman said (after ingesting yagé and performing his rituals) you have stomach parasites and your wife is pregnant with a boy, after returning to Australia a modern medical team confirmed both the shamans diagnosis to be 100% accurate, this guy even named his son "shaman" because of this...
I've heard many other anecdotes, and personally seen too many things of this nature to deny that the shaman does have a good degree of the abilities which he claims.
Westerners have always looked at "witch doctors" as charlatans, probably because western religion is a scam more than anything else, and probably because the western mind has issues accepting these things...

-eg

 

[anne halonium]

I won't deny that there are far more imposters and con artists out there than actual shamans,

These people are using actual medicines, this is the difference.

you cant possibly be playing the hillbillies against the natives on this.
i can assure you oxys and moonshine are sacraments from appalachians point of view.


i say the snakes handlers hold the high ground here.
they heal people routinely also ( according to them), and they have SNAKES.

frankly its a better show.
id suggest the lack of snakes makes the aya show second rate by itself.
and let me add the snake show is FREE,
and they serve a good dinner afterward.

and we all know, the only thing that trumps snakes is flaming skeletons. ( or lasers)

step up ,demand aya- anacondas!

when it comes to peoples health,
not buying anecdote.
no one else should either.

never thought id defend snake handlers........LOL
any claims of bias of religion or sacraments, is now farsical.

 

[Koornut]

The music does translate well. I know some gringo shamans who sing wonderful icaros and host fantastic ceremonies. Curanderismo isnt limited by skin color. These people did the same training, but in the time and effort.... And it paid off.

I learned how to sing in Quechua and Shipibo.... Takes a lot of effort to learn the languages enough, but I just share this as an example of other cultures being able to learn too. I even know a few curanderos who sing in English and have wonderful songs. I know some that sing only a little and mostly make music with instruments - but all of them did the traditional training and put in the time and work to learn the practice. Even the ones who dont sing often - they learned the traditional way first before making changes to make sure the changes they made were legitimate and effective.

I dont think you get the same effect listening to recorded icaros.... But I think anyone who wants to can learn how to create their own icaros.

If one were to say, be in regular contact with a practitioner in the know (of the music) outside of the traditional setting. Swapping back and forth the musical intuitions they've learnt themselves from the technologies of their own native land, could this be considered a long-distance apprenticeship on that particular aspect of the ceremony?
I agree, recorded songs do not pack the same punch. But a skilled songster/stress might be able to pick up the general direction of a recorded piece and give constructive feedback as to the nature of the music they are hearing as it relates to what they've learnt.

From what i understand the physical song (vibrations in the air) is akin to the subject line of an email, where the real body of information is being transmitted in the imaginal-space, which requires direct face-to-faceness.

 

[anne halonium]

I learned how to sing in Quechua and Shipibo....

snake handlers cut to the chase with standard hymnals.
and they sing really really loud.

everyone has a song and dance.
but not everyone has snakes.

 

[DmnStr8]

You are not the mountain stone. You are not the white stone or the black stone. You see no stones. You are a cup that is completely full and overflows. To travel the world and miss the connection with these people is missing yourself. You can connect with anyone and anything in this world, a stone, a mountain, kids trying to touch your hair, medicine men or even a side show freak. Everyone has something to teach and give. To discount thousands of years of shamanic history is foolhardy to say the least. The intentions of these teachers and healers is admirable. But you only saw yourself. The world is full of treachery but I don't focus on that. I can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Shamanism is a syncretic belief system. It can be adopted and adapted to meet the needs of any culture without watering down the practices of the modern man or whatever belief system you hold. A shaman is one who has healed him/herself. A shaman is someone who is clever. A shaman is an outsider. A shaman has seen what others cannot see and comes back to tell the tale. This is not mumbo-jumbo side show. This is real working knowledge of altered states of consciousness. It has value.

I feel like shamanism can be translated any way that we wish. We don't need to ask for permission, but a certain amount of respect is needed enable to learn, grow and evolve.

Arrogance and ego is what got this world into the mess it is in now. The world as a whole needs some healing. That healing will only take place if we can place down the need to be right. There are side shows of every religion and belief system. Let's not throw out baby with the bathwater.

I would like to think that we could chip off the jewels of all religions and belief system and find a common ground where we can all find a way to live peacefully with eachother, the animals, and the earth. Integrating it all into a common truth. Shamanism could be a catalyst for this kind of thinking. Anyhow... I don't have any answers here. Just trying to find a way to help and heal people if I can. Starting with myself. An amalgamation of all of our ideas and beliefs could lead to an expansion of language. New thoughts, new language, new world.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I won't deny that there are far more imposters and con artists out there than actual shamans, but true shamanism is very different from most religious nonsense which claims to heal.

These people are using actual medicines, this is the difference. -eg

If your using plant medicines, you have the ability to perform feats of pharmacological healing.

Have you seen hillbillies heal another person with moonshine?

to a shaman, knowing how to use the plants around you is crucial, it's crucial to be able to predict the weather, to be able to predict where the game will be to hunt, and to be able to provide medical and spiritual care to your community, and understand and handle supernatural concerns, and seeing how all of this is crucial for survival of the people, shamans have managed to do these things quite effectively with the tools they have...

I fail to see how hillbillies and moonshine relate in any way...

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

.

Epena snuffs creates first a feelings of bravado, and the men leave the large round-house to fight off evil spirits (the hikuri) about to harm the tribe. Following the expenditure of so much energy, they return to the house and take more snuff and engage in strange movements, mimicking animals. Following a period of lethargy, they sink into a deep sleep disturbed by frightening visual hallucinations.”

~ Mark J. Plotkin, Sustainable harvest and marketing of rain forest products. (1992).

I've heard mckenna describe the hikuri as "bouncing demons", he said the men would attempt to trap the hikuri in their chests, as the hikuri have a tendency to move through human bodies, apparently there is a technique to keep these things trapped in your chest, and it's supposed to make you very hard to knock over and give you strength and power...

-eg

 

[dreamer042]

This thread demonstrates so much Black and White thinking. I just wanted to chime in and remind you all that this world is so much moar colorful than you realize. We don't have to accept Either Or, when we can have Both And. I'm pressed for time and my contribution to this thread is going to wax verbose, so allow me to offer some vocabulary words to consider in the mean time. Neo-Archaic, FuturePrimitive, TechnoShamanic.

Moar to come, play friendly❣

 

[travsha]

I think it was mckenna who said "shamans only pick patients they know will get better"

A shaman would turn away a person they can not help.

Shamans I know wouldnt turn people away for this.... They would still try. They might refer them to someone else with a specialty in the area though if they know someone.

At the least, the shaman might be able to help the person find peace with their illness, which can count for a lot.

If one were to say, be in regular contact with a practitioner in the know (of the music) outside of the traditional setting. Swapping back and forth the musical intuitions they've learnt themselves from the technologies of their own native land, could this be considered a long-distance apprenticeship on that particular aspect of the ceremony?
I agree, recorded songs do not pack the same punch. But a skilled songster/stress might be able to pick up the general direction of a recorded piece and give constructive feedback as to the nature of the music they are hearing as it relates to what they've learnt.

From what i understand the physical song (vibrations in the air) is akin to the subject line of an email, where the real body of information is being transmitted in the imaginal-space, which requires direct face-to-faceness.

It isnt just about copying songs either.... I dont think it is necessary to have a teacher - just way easier and much faster. Most of the songs I sing are improvised on the fly, so it is more about learning the language, learning to improvise, and learning to flow from your intuition. Also you have to get to the point where you can see what you need to sing to - so being able to see and sense energy.

Most of the skill comes from experience.... Watching others sing in ceremony helps you learn why they sing what they sing when they do it... It can be very helpful to sit in ceremony and pay attention to the songs being sung if you want to learn to sing your own songs. Even more helpful if you can ask them questions about some of the songs like what certain lines meant, or get clarification on what you thought the song was doing ect....

I think you could get some tips sending songs to someone, but it would be a bit harder then not having anyone in person to help you learn.