Shamanism

[entheogenic-gnosis]

still not buying into the medical hype.

you guys can play the spirit and love card,
and the fellowship card, and even to a degree a mental health/ therapy card.
but , im seriously disappointed about the medical card.
IMO its promoting medicine show quackery by definition.
very disturbing.

ive seen TV infomercials at 3 am for weight loss machines that have a greater respect for medical data.......
my gawd, do surgery with a ginsu next?

the logical extension is to eat psil, round up anyone from mexico city,
and declare them a divine aztec heart surgeon.
and do that triple bypass right at the pyramid of the sun!......
seriously?
same reasoning IMO.
i mean why stop at non invasive measures?
obsidian is plentiful.


also, dont confuse the shot out insurance system with actual scientific medicine.
tarring actual doctors, with the soil of an investment culture,
is not genuine argument for anything but social revolt.
its poor endorsement for aya tourism.
if your too broke to afford proper medical care,
my last thought would be to guzzle aya with indians.

if you guys are all caught up in miracles and religion,
you need to do fatima / or the vatican
for the whole divine medicine show, the catholics have it down.
im not even catholic and i was impressed.

^fantastic show, and they dont even need snakes or drugs........

for a long time i saw the spanish conquest and extermination of SA culture as a bad thing.
now im starting to think if they were anti quackery, it might have made sense!

and once again for the record........
anne halonium DOES NOT promote soaring off to the jungle,
to guzzle aya and cure your cancer........or whatever..........

history shows these cure all fads and crazes fade into others.......unfortunately.
this incarnation is aya indians.
next incarnation has to be mongolian yak offal tea and yurt meditation in silly hats.

i would offer, when faced with a terminal patient of any sort,
the best shaman would say " die gracefully"
anything less would be flat out shaman hubris.

How can you not buy the medical stuff? That's the actual science!

Look at cannabis, powerful medicine, also used by shamans for millennia.

Look at harmala alkaloids...

If you look up "harmala alkaloids in medicine" you will get a pantheon of research papers outlining benefits of the compounds...

National Geographic

Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.

news.nationalgeographic.com

And the link above outlines the depth of its historical use...

I'm willing to bet that nearly all modern pharmaceutical medications can be traced back to a plant, or plant medicine...

Whether the compounds come from plants and are distributed by a shaman, or are synthesized in labs and are distributed by pharmaceutical companies, the pharmacology doesn't change...

And modern science is proving these compounds medically valuable...

Besides, the mind can have just as much to do with healing as the body...

-eg

 

[woogyboogy]

I think dreamer made a point here, that we should look from where we are and see whats going on right now in the world, and not make phantasies. Psychedelics have come here to stay, and culture is evolving, also I am not a big fan of artificially maintaining a cultural tradition, way beyond its date of expiry. Yes there is a lot of knowledge which is in danger of being lost for ever, but we have to try to make a fusion of what we have and not keep everything separated.

Psychedelics are being used by western people, alone and in all kinds of settings, whether its supposed to be like this or not(and why should anything be supposed to be any way?).
Also after all what people tell me, whats going on down there in Iquitos, I would probably feel safer to have a experience in my very home, which I know very well and can control all the variables.

We shouldnt forget that traditionally only the shamans drink the ayahuasca, and heal, without the patient joining in.
So what we are doing here is basically another thing(or an evolution). Its new, its novel, and we yet have to see where it takes us.

And I dont believe a shaman is obsolete in any way. They have understandings of working with a very subtle presence, that is not yet scientifically understandable.
The only experience I have with a true shaman, is with one that doesnt use mind altering herbs in his work, so I see the work of a shaman in its essence is not dependent on these substances. They are just a tool. But as with any tool, there are many different ways to use one.

And also I am very excited to watch how this whole new culture is evolving.
Some of those ancient traditions are thousands of years old, but in europe we have been cut of for quite a long time. Of course there have always been practitioners, but it was very underground. Only 50 years ago it started with the psychedelic revolution, and contrary to some, I dont believe they failed, that shift is not done yet. Psych culture survived and its bigger then ever! Look at the big festivals in europe, 50.000 people attending to some. Psychs are getting slowly back into the light(espescially with microdosing and all) and combined with the new media and globalisation who knows where this might take us?? I personally think its an amazing time to live in.
So we should use what we can from the shamans of old cultures, but dont forget to see, in what situation were in and what each ones need is, and what hes hoping to get out of them.
Even in the old traditions theres lots of dogmatic variety between them, so there has always been way more then one way to use them...

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

...I am not a big fan of artificially maintaining a cultural tradition, way beyond its date of expiry. Yes there is a lot of knowledge which is in danger of being lost for ever, but we have to try to make a fusion of what we have and not keep everything separated.

Who gets to decide when a culture has 'outlived it's usefulness?' Who gets to make that call. Surely you're not suggesting that a bunch of Westerners have the right to tell a group of people (who have been exploited and oppressed for centuries now) "sorry, we decided that your culture is pointless, we'll just take the fun bits and you can be on your way."

Blessings
~ND

 

[Jees]

WoogyB: I like your quest for common wisdom, but ...

...also I am not a big fan of artificially maintaining a cultural tradition, way beyond its date of expiry. Yes there is a lot of knowledge which is in danger of being lost for ever, but we have to try to make a fusion of what we have and not keep everything separated...

Cultural tradition, like the western cultural tradition to have economics on the top priority? When is that going to expire? It's not just artificially maintained, it is by all means possibly forced. I admit to be part of that.

Old school plant medicine knowledge has no expire date and a pity to hear you're not a fan of it. No like waving feathers? Then don't. Why would some one else stop waving feathers? Because it looks stupid? Look at television channels and the streets for a sec.

Traditional Chinese Medicine is already fully recognized, have their own hospitals etc, never was a fusion possible with "modern" medical world. Ask your drs about meridians, five elements, yin/yang, they'll oppress a laugh to not affront you. I hear some voices yelling quackery-alert already. A TCM doctor treats while you're healthy and considered failed when you do get sick.

Look at that link I gave, Ayurveda, asking - reaching hands to the modern medicinal world, they simply refuse for 1 definite reason: economic.

You cant fuse opposite interests and convictions
A possible fuse might top off ends to reach agreement, maybe that's not a good idea after all. Now, the different strokes revel in their own garden, and we can choose at will like a palette of choices, not this bad me thinks.

 

[woogyboogy]

I am sorry for using the word expiry date, indeed now I see it sounds a bit harsh, and I definitly dont mean in it that way. It was thoughtless.

No one should be allowed to decide when a tradition expires, and I agree, the knowledge per se doestn has that date, all I am saying, for my self I have to find a way that works for me, and that doesnt involve learning all old plant knowledge, which is a lifetime goal, and not what I decide to do with this life. So I try to develop my own style, with what I dont want to say that ancient wisdom doesnt have its important purpose, and I recognise its the root, of what I appreciate in psychedelic culture, but I also recognise its always changing.
Jees just to note, I think most traditional cultures are beautiful, and I definitely like waving feathers and am interested in ancient plant medicine. But just as well I like electronic dance music, and the internet. I am born in this time, and thats where I start.

And with economy its a thing, yeah, its going pretty bad,t and economy sadly seems to be frame of our culture, but I also see a lot beautiful things going on in the big cities of our world, and I prefer to focus on that, rather then always paint black. The only thing that I so far see can do about it is to set a mindset that to me seems ethical and then live by that day by day. But okay, thats probably what this and other discussions is about, to define what should be the right mindset, to act upon...

I hope the wisdom lives on, but I think we in the west have to find our own way, and if one for himself decides to take parts of indigenous traditions, then why not.

Western medicine has its dark sides, although there is definitly alot of potential and some great achievements.

I have been part of an ayurvedic panchakarma treatment, and yes from my experience they have a way better understanding what it takes espescially as a human to be a doctor, one can trust.
How ever I am glad, and there the fusion comes into play, that I can rely on western people, that have studied those ancient cultures, and bring into it a more rational mindset, to which I can relate more.

 

[Jees]

I think you are a good spirited person.
Western medicine saved my life once, maybe twice.
Old school stuff saved my mind and oriented my soul nicely.
It's so good to have options.
:thumb_up:

 

[DmnStr8]

Found this talk with Terence McKenna which touches on this topic.

 

[Koornut]

If one were to say, be in regular contact with a practitioner in the know (of the music) outside of the traditional setting. Swapping back and forth the musical intuitions they've learnt themselves from the technologies of their own native land, could this be considered a long-distance apprenticeship on that particular aspect of the ceremony?
I agree, recorded songs do not pack the same punch. But a skilled songster/stress might be able to pick up the general direction of a recorded piece and give constructive feedback as to the nature of the music they are hearing as it relates to what they've learnt.

From what i understand the physical song (vibrations in the air) is akin to the subject line of an email, where the real body of information is being transmitted in the imaginal-space, which requires direct face-to-faceness.

It isnt just about copying songs either.... I dont think it is necessary to have a teacher - just way easier and much faster. Most of the songs I sing are improvised on the fly, so it is more about learning the language, learning to improvise, and learning to flow from your intuition. Also you have to get to the point where you can see what you need to sing to - so being able to see and sense energy.

I agree, being in the presence of somebody who has dedication their entire life to the craft would certainly be the most (or least ) straightforward way of understanding the methods involved and eventually incorporating them into ones own practice.
Thankfully for those of us who are curious but lack the means of entering an apprenticeship anytime soon can still utilise the technologies involved and carve our own paths up the mountain. Because the dominant technology is music and particularly vocalisation.

I have often thought about the relationship between sound and the energetic body. Because whenever I sing in a flow state I feel as though my voice is cutting through the very fabric of matter in front of me, resulting in waves of "energy" in the form of the tingles and goosebumps throughout my body. This can further be enhanced by intense visualisation of the intent of the lyric or lack there of in my imaginal space.
Which typically takes the form of a giant arena-like dome with me in the centre and the sound carrying to the farthest reaches of the space.

Most of the skill comes from experience.... Watching others sing in ceremony helps you learn why they sing what they sing when they do it... It can be very helpful to sit in ceremony and pay attention to the songs being sung if you want to learn to sing your own songs. Even more helpful if you can ask them questions about some of the songs like what certain lines meant, or get clarification on what you thought the song was doing ect....

I think you could get some tips sending songs to someone, but it would be a bit harder then not having anyone in person to help you learn.

A good argument for practice makes perfect

If the opportunity comes along to sit with a master I would gladly takeit, until then I'll keep on keepin' on the only way I know how.

 

[Praxis.]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but I'd like to offer some food for thought.

I think the ways we often talk about "shamanism" are limiting for a number of reasons. Firstly, I think it's tokenizing and it reduces a myriad of diverse cultural practices and beliefs down to a single word that comes loaded with false presumptions. The word "shaman" is actually used by a specific culture to describe their own holy people, and it seems disrespectful to me to ignore that. If someone told you they are Sikh would you continue calling them a Buddhist? What might the Sikh think? How might a Buddhist feel about you associating every religion you perceive as exotic or "Eastern" with a practice that is not only unique to their own culture, but an integral part of their identity? And how might a Hindu perceive someone calling themselves a Hindu when they are actually practicing Buddhism or Jainism?

Semantics aside though, I also think we limit ourselves in how we understand "shamanism" because of the ways that we associate tribalism with the word itself. If you look beyond the fact that these practices use psychedelics and other methods of exploring consciousness, the role of the "shaman" in these cultures is pretty universal. They aren't just dressing up, chanting, and getting people high--but this collective implicit bias our culture has about how "exotic" and "tribal" people are supposed to act gets in the way of actually seeing these roles in their fullness. Traditional healers in just about every culture are trained in conflict resolution, medicine, various forms of therapy/counseling, and community-care. We have people who fill these roles in our society already, but we don't use the word "shaman" to describe them because they look and act like us. They are doctors, nurses, mid-wives, hospice caregivers, therapists, social workers, crisis counselors, religious leaders, the list could go on... "Neo-shamanism" has been here for a minute and I don't think it has much to do with the people feeding drugs to their friends at raves. I do, however, think we should definitely be asking how these substances could be utilized by these various professions. How might the work of a social worker or nurse or priest be influenced by implementing psychedelic drugs, and in what ways might this resemble what we typically call "shamanism"? In what ways could we draw from traditional practices to better inform how we approach health and well-being?

TLDR; I think we create a box for ourselves when we use the word "shamanism". Modern practitioners in Western healthcare are just as much "shamans" as the traditional healers of any culture, however I do feel that we could learn a lot by adapting some of the ways that traditional cultures have approached healthcare from a collective community-based framework as opposed to our current model that prioritizes individualism and profit. In our culture we do not connect the health of the individual to the health of the community at large, and in my opinion that is a fundamental missing piece. I feel that psychedelic drugs could play an important role in this, and a "modern shaman" could be as simple as a licensed counselor with permission to write 'scripts for psychedelic drugs or perhaps facilitate a psychedelic session.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Yes, but when one asks, "what is shamanism?" How then would you answer?

It's not about preservation of fading cultures, it's about learning. For me it's not even about healing, though I really wouldn't call myself a shaman, I'm using shamanic techniques yes, but I've also been in study of Buddhism, taoism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, Rastafarianism, and so on, and as I study all these spiritual practices, I incorporate bits and pieces of valuable knowledge from them all.

...we have the benefit of being able to take the accumulation of history and browse through it freely, at the tips of our fingers we can access any information regarding any topic, we can take the best wisdom from the best spiritual teachers from the entirety of history...

The term "shamanism" is a basic umbrella term, I've encountered native American healers that actually consider the word somewhat offensive, and I've encountered other healers who embrace it...and you will find many definitions which fall under this term.

...and there's nothing wrong with learning these things, as a youth I loved Richard Evans schultes, Gordon R. Wasson, terence mckenna, and even Mircea Eliade, though I feel he was absolutely wrong when he said "Entheogenic shamanism is decadent", as mckenna points out, non-Entheogenic shamanism resorts to ordeal, stranding yourself in wilderness, swewtlodges, flageleation, etc...these are are dangerous methods of eventually obtaining similar shamanic outcome, and appear to be "resorted to" when psychedelics had become unavailable...and that it's non-Entheogenic shamanism which is "shamanism in a state of decay"

I guess my "modern shamanism" and the phenomenon of "basement shamanism" as well as consumption of novel analogue decoctions is a new evolution, and is far more complex and varied than anything to proceed it...

...Though I love researching cultures, not that I ever buy in to any of them, it's more like knowledge archeology, with brush and pick your searching for gnosis while discarding detritus

 

[ganesh]

Yes, but when one asks, "what is shamanism?" How then would you answer?

Working with spirits, is my answer.

TM, as much as i enjoy his talks, was very much a philosopher who spoke in ideals, and from a perspective involving various worldviews, although i wouldn't goto him if i wanted to understand about the various types of Amazonian Curandismo because i thought he spoke too generalised and within his own ideologies. For Amazonian Curandismo i would choose someone like Steven Beyer, Peter Gorman, or Alan Shoemaker.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Yes, but when one asks, "what is shamanism?" How then would you answer?

Working with spirits, is my answer.

TM, as much as i enjoy his talks, was very much a philosopher who spoke in ideals, and from a perspective involving various worldviews, although i wouldn't goto him if i wanted to understand about the various types of Amazonian Curandismo because i thought he spoke too generalised and within his own ideologies. For Amazonian Curandismo i would choose someone like Steven Beyer, Peter Gorman, or Alan Shoemaker.

Good answer,

Though I would add "and non-physical states of being"...there's even a hint of a medical doctor and a psychotherapist mixed in...

I guess, "it's complex" would be the better add on...

The fact is that shamanism actually "is" something, means as a result does have a definition, though explaining what it actually is depends greatly on who you talk to, where you are, and what specific techniques and practices are known to the shaman at hand...

"Go between" and "spiritual layer" are definitions of shamanism which I have enjoyed.

...though without doing at least little research into all the facets that encompasses "shamanism" your going to get an incomplete picture...


As for mckenna, I have a high affinity for terence, he must have had a very similar psychological make up as myself, not to say "I am like terence", it's more saying "we must see the world in a very similar way"...

Mckenna was set with the task to cover as many topics as possible in a two hour span...he would basically just go on stage and unload everything that had been in his mind proceeding the event...so I cut him some slack if he leaves things out or makes occasional errors.

...shamanism was only a piece of terence' s rap, there was 2012, psilocybe fungi, UFOs, novelty, the firmware, fractals and math, James Joyce, Marshall McLuhan, alchemy, chemistry, botany, world history, philosophy, technology, speculation, spirituality, and psychedelics* (*not relating to shamanism)

-eg

 

[ganesh]

Mckenna was set with the task to cover as many topics as possible in a two hour span...he would basically just go on stage and unload everything that had been in his mind proceeding the event...so I cut him some slack if he leaves things out or makes occasional errors.

...shamanism was only a piece of terence' s rap, there was 2012, psilocybe fungi, UFOs, novelty, the firmware, fractals and math, James Joyce, Marshall McLuhan, alchemy, chemistry, botany, world history, philosophy, technology, speculation, spirituality, and psychedelics* (*not relating to shamanism)

Exactly.

He wasn't an expert on Amazonian Curandismo like others are. He was a man who was an Anarchist and who grew up in the days of counter culture with the likes of Leary, etc. If you listen to him, you get a lot of stuff which is interesting, but it also involves his theories which are just that.

If you want to understand the jungle plants, dietas, etc, etc, stick to those who have devoted their energies unto that study, rather than the TM, 'jack of all trades', and associated 'psycho babble'.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Mckenna was set with the task to cover as many topics as possible in a two hour span...he would basically just go on stage and unload everything that had been in his mind proceeding the event...so I cut him some slack if he leaves things out or makes occasional errors.

...shamanism was only a piece of terence' s rap, there was 2012, psilocybe fungi, UFOs, novelty, the firmware, fractals and math, James Joyce, Marshall McLuhan, alchemy, chemistry, botany, world history, philosophy, technology, speculation, spirituality, and psychedelics* (*not relating to shamanism)

Exactly.

He wasn't an expert on Amazonian Curandismo like others are. He was a man who was an Anarchist and who grew up in the days of counter culture with the likes of Leary, etc. If you listen to him, you get a lot of stuff which is interesting, but it also involves his theories which are just that.

If you want to understand the jungle plants, dietas, etc, etc, stick to those who have devoted their energies unto that study, rather than the TM, 'jack of all trades', and associated 'psycho babble'.

Mckenna is a great source for information on shamanism, though it was not restricted to just south American ayahuasca, you can't discount the time he spent in south America either or the information he accumulated.

Mckenna did have some good shamanic lectures, and I would not totally dismiss his knowledge regarding shamanism and south American plant medicine.

You don't get speculation from mckenna when it comes to shamanism, plants, chemistry or history, this was reserved for other areas

Mckenna is the antithesis of Leary.

...and while he grew out of the counter culture, it was his time spend travelling through India, Asia, and later the Amazon that shaped a good deal of his "cultural contamination" or lack there of, making an analogy to travel being like psychedelics, and stating how both reveal how all culture is a scam, mckenna speaks about the counter culture, and describes his former part in it, but I fail to see any of the cookie-cutter counter culture motifs in mckenna's work.

When it comes to learning the jungle plants I have always enjoyed the classics, Richard Evans schultes, Gordon wasson, Jonathan Ott, and so on, though mckenna has been a great source of information as well.

I'm not dismissing those you recommended, and will look into them, some I have briefly reviewed, I enjoy learning from as many sources as possible, and am always finding new information and qualified individuals providing it, but I can't agree with fully dismissing Mr. Mckenna.

Terence McKenna - Shamanology of the Amazon

Survey of shamanic options - mckenna

Mckenna and metzner - Shamanism: Before And Beyond History

All the below links are great as well...

Shamanism and hallucinogens - mckenna

Shamans of the amazon (not mckenna, but I brought this documentary up in prior posts)

Mckenna - psychotherapy vs shamanism.

-eg

 

[Praxis.]

Yes, but when one asks, "what is shamanism?" How then would you answer?

If I wanted to be a stickler I would answer that shamanism is a word we use to describe a collection of traditional practices from Siberia. It comes from the word saman, which has been used by these groups of people to describe their own practices. Western anthropologists coined the term "shamanism" as a descriptor for these groups, and then began to use it as a blanket statement for any "ethnic religion" that involved trance states, magic, etc...

I understand that it's useful to have a common word to use to describe things that are similar, and when we talk about "shamanism" we are talking about practices that absolutely do share many common elements. I won't pretend that's not the case. But it's not a word we came up with--it's a word that others have used historically to describe themselves, and we've become comfortable taking that word and reducing their identity down to describe any "ethnic" or "other" religions that we perceive to be "magical, esoteric, psychedelic, exotic, etc...". In truth, shamanism is a unique and specific set of practices that extends far beyond the incorporation of altered states. A Buddhist is not a Hindu. A Christian is not a Jew. A Sinchi is not a Bwitist is not a Curandero is not a Yerbero is not a Partera is not a Shaman. Even though they have similar characteristics, they choose to call themselves by their own names. Why would we call them by anything other than what they choose to call themselves?

I think Dreamer made a good point about the myth of the "noble savage". We get lost in our own projections of what a "shaman" is supposed to be, an image that is not only an inaccurate depiction of the word--but that perpetuates racist myths and stigmatization. Dreamer also made the point about technology, and that we often recreate these very practices in a modern, Western context. He may have been going in a slightly different direction with his point, but I would add that yes, we do, but we often never call it "shamanism" because these people look and act and talk like us. I think that someone who works in hospice care, or who is a counselor, religious leader, etc...these people more accurately embody the roles that "shamans" actually play in their communities than the people dishing out pharma at festivals or what-have-you. But I do think the integration of psychedelic medicine into these professions could be a profound shift in the way they are practiced, and which could resemble something much closer to what we typically call "shamanism". In my opinion a healer is defined primarily by their relationship with the community and environment, not just by the tools in their kit.

 

[anne halonium]

they choose to call themselves by their own names. Why would we call them by anything other than what they choose to call themselves?

L.G.I. = loph girl incarnate.

^ thats how annie distinguishes from the pack.
everyone has a title these days.

i tend to go with the grow title thing,
and let the mystical be implied.........

 

[jamie]

I gotta say, if there was ever a rock star of the psychedelic world, it's you Anne..for better or worse.

 

[anne halonium]

I gotta say, if there was ever a rock star of the psychedelic world, it's you Anne..for better or worse.

drugs have been good to me.
im here to inspire.

 

[DmnStr8]

I saw this article today and thought it fitting to share it here.

"The recent discovery of a 9,000-year-old shamanic sanctuary in Europe proves that an advanced and knowledgeable culture once flourished there. The capabilities of the shamans described in mystic tales might had once been a reality after all."

http://www.ewao.com/a/archaeologists-unearth-9000-year-old-shaman-sanctuary-europe/

 

[dreamer042]

05:20:00 ‹jamie›im not sure I beleive shamanism is anything other than the ability to hold shit together tbh

^^^