good question, ya know they aren't what some people think. they are people first, fathers husbands and community members. some try to [put them into a guru box but that's not their purpose.bodhi said:Great post Olympus Mon, thank you.
I am curious on your opinion of the Shamans through your own observations;
after 1000's ? of ayahuasca ceremonies are these men transformed or enlightened for lack of a better word?
Please share your thoughts.
sorry for the delay my friend, didnt see this till now.BecometheOther said:My question is, have you ever listended to recorded icaros (i have not)? Is it possible to experience an icaros effects throught the recorded medium? for example if one wanted the power of an icaro of protection, could one play the track that is known to be the "icaro of protection" and its power will be carried through. Or does it require the shaman's physical voice and the energy and settings around him to be effective?
Thanks!
olympus mon said:The other reason i feel working with shamans is so amazing is the icaros. When they sing for you the most amazing experiences happen as well as huge amounts of information come through their songs to you. Each icaro evokes different visions and a good shaman isn't just pulling icaros out of a hat, he/she is reading the group and each individual and selecting what icaro is needed. Their power and work keeps me in awe each and every night we drink. Its truly something to be experienced and if you ever have the opportunity you will not regret it. Do you research, find a good place, and plan on spending more than a week. The longer, the deeper.
Psilociraptor said:I have mixed feelings. I don't think ayahuasca SHOULDN'T be used outside of ceremony. But i honestly feel it's somewhat dangerous to do any deep work as an untrained soul in a home context. If you're taking a little or even a moderate amount i suppose i don't see the harm, though i don't see the point either (mushrooms are far more pleasant for that). But going that deep can go south really quick and that's where the ceremony really comes in to provide a safe space to encounter that darkness. My first trip ended up in all sorts of suicidal and delusional thinking and I honestly believe if it weren't for the shaman and the setting that I would have not pulled through so great. I was begging people to kill me, telling them i broke my brain and needed to go to the hospital, and all sorts of other stuff that any trained shaman should be equipped to deal with and capable of diffusing as best as possible. I suppose it's a bit like having a good holistic doctor. Sure you can buy the supplements and herbs and whatever yourself, but having someone who is deeply in tuned with that particular healing modality help you avoid fatal errors and help nudge you in the right direction when you're struggling is priceless.
ganesh said:Psilociraptor said:I have mixed feelings. I don't think ayahuasca SHOULDN'T be used outside of ceremony. But i honestly feel it's somewhat dangerous to do any deep work as an untrained soul in a home context. If you're taking a little or even a moderate amount i suppose i don't see the harm, though i don't see the point either (mushrooms are far more pleasant for that). But going that deep can go south really quick and that's where the ceremony really comes in to provide a safe space to encounter that darkness. My first trip ended up in all sorts of suicidal and delusional thinking and I honestly believe if it weren't for the shaman and the setting that I would have not pulled through so great. I was begging people to kill me, telling them i broke my brain and needed to go to the hospital, and all sorts of other stuff that any trained shaman should be equipped to deal with and capable of diffusing as best as possible. I suppose it's a bit like having a good holistic doctor. Sure you can buy the supplements and herbs and whatever yourself, but having someone who is deeply in tuned with that particular healing modality help you avoid fatal errors and help nudge you in the right direction when you're struggling is priceless.
YES.
Having someone on the outside who is more experienced than your are, who has experience working the energetic realms, and assistence fro many plant spirits, makes a whole lot of difference.
universecannon said:ganesh said:Psilociraptor said:I have mixed feelings. I don't think ayahuasca SHOULDN'T be used outside of ceremony. But i honestly feel it's somewhat dangerous to do any deep work as an untrained soul in a home context. If you're taking a little or even a moderate amount i suppose i don't see the harm, though i don't see the point either (mushrooms are far more pleasant for that). But going that deep can go south really quick and that's where the ceremony really comes in to provide a safe space to encounter that darkness. My first trip ended up in all sorts of suicidal and delusional thinking and I honestly believe if it weren't for the shaman and the setting that I would have not pulled through so great. I was begging people to kill me, telling them i broke my brain and needed to go to the hospital, and all sorts of other stuff that any trained shaman should be equipped to deal with and capable of diffusing as best as possible. I suppose it's a bit like having a good holistic doctor. Sure you can buy the supplements and herbs and whatever yourself, but having someone who is deeply in tuned with that particular healing modality help you avoid fatal errors and help nudge you in the right direction when you're struggling is priceless.
YES.
Having someone on the outside who is more experienced than your are, who has experience working the energetic realms, and assistence fro many plant spirits, makes a whole lot of difference.
Of course it does. And both ways of working with it (alone or with a skilled master) have their ups and downs.
But what i dont understand is why people think ayahuasca is somehow more difficult or risky to take at home than say mushrooms. I think its how it entered cultural awareness with ancient traditions still somewhat intact, whereas mushrooms have become a widely used recreational psychedelic. But if you can handle mushrooms at home alone at high doses then aya should be fine. Aya is actually far more forgiving in my experience and many i know familiar with both in those settings. But others may differ; it probably depends on several factors.
Psilociraptor said:It's not. My issue is more with context. Ayahuasca ceremonies tend to go a lot deeper than most of us average joes like to trip in our homes. Last time i asked a shaman for a "moderate" dose I was teetering on the edge of a ++++/+++++ and the time before that was a good bit stronger. These dudes absolutely do not mess around. Now i see nothing wrong with taking light to moderate doses in ones house. If you are experienced with high doses of other psychedelics then i don't see the issue either. It's not that i think Ayahuasca is particularly harder to handle in its respective dose ranges. It's just that i personally feel the ultra-high doses and ceremony is really where the magic of Ayahuasca is. I have taken smaller doses and just found them terribly uncomfortable. Too much nausea, too little returns. Ayahuasca for me is all about purging the deepest-held limiting beliefs and emotions. That experience is far too intense for the majority to just do in their home with a buddy. Not saying it's not suited for anybody. I realize that individual preparation and experience are all factors here. And that some may genuinely also enjoy the less intense experiences that can be had at home too. But I hear a lot "why bother spending the money to be around a bunch of random people when i can take Ayahuasca comfortably in my own home". In my experience I wouldn't even fathom taking it alone. And of course, that's just my experience. But it's probably others experience as well. That they may be duped out of a positive relationship with this incredible medicine by not understanding the importance of context. Those who can take ceremony strength doses alone are a minority of the general demographic of psychedelic users.
I suppose it also helps to define some things. When you say high doses of mushrooms what do you mean gram wise? Psychedelic forums can be somewhat unrepresentative of how the average person defines things like "strong" or "light". If i had a conversation with people on a college campus about taking 5 grams of mushrooms the majority would think that's too much, i'd think its a comfortable dose, and then a very small few would admit to taking usually 7-10g. Just trying to get a gauge for what your perspective on strength is