"Soy boy" - a case study of how the meat and dairy industries weaponized a meme for profit

[blig-blug]

The 12% number is not set in stone. There is no specific goal beyond wanting to be in good shape and perhaps challenging myself. I've never been this lean in my adult life so I want to try it out and see how it makes me feel. I know for a fact that being very lean has tremendous drawbacks in terms of energy and how one feels, but it's still something I want to give a go and see for myself.

Yes, it's interesting to see how bodily changes feel. While 12% is definitely lean, I don't think it's particularly dangerous or risky, it seems like a safe level. I do wonder if you would be able to reach it while staying at 95kg, the closer you come to the limits the more strict you have to be and the better you need to plan.

I have never been lean either. I lost a lot of weight in 5 years, and since then I've been able to not go up past a limit (going up and down but below that limit). I'm still overweight but it's not too bad. In my case I find it quite challenging due to the remains of an eating disorder. I aspire on getting down to 17% BF or so eventually, but for that I need further mental improvements.

 

[Nydex]

Yes, it's interesting to see how bodily changes feel. While 12% is definitely lean, I don't think it's particularly dangerous or risky, it seems like a safe level. I do wonder if you would be able to reach it while staying at 95kg, the closer you come to the limits the more strict you have to be and the better you need to plan.

I have never been lean either. I lost a lot of weight in 5 years, and since then I've been able to not go up past a limit (going up and down but below that limit). I'm still overweight but it's not too bad. In my case I find it quite challenging due to the remains of an eating disorder. I aspire on getting down to 17% BF or so eventually, but for that I need further mental improvements.

Yeah I struggled with an eating disorder too that I've talked about in one of my mushroom reports (basically using food as a coping mechanism), but what did it for me, i.e. what served as the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back, was a difficult, heart-to-heart conversation I had with my brother about 3 years ago when I was at my heaviest, worst shape ever (pushing 126 kg).

Talk to me about this if you feel the need to. As a semi-professional fat person, I can profer some (gluten-free) crumbs of advice.

 

[Espurrr]

so long as your soy foods don't come from GMO soy and are not heavily sprayed with various pesticides , and the process of making tofu itself also gets rid of some % of pesticides because the "whey" water is discarded

soy can be a magnificent source of protein, several fats, minerals, while being very easy to digest , really any prospect of a vegan culture is relatively meaningless without soy because whole grains and beans and seeds are not a good protein replacement at all, the digestive burden and absorption rates of those foods makes it more of a survival option

while the closest thing to veganism which is ironically not seen in india but east asia, is based on white rice / white noodles / starch extracted from tubers , soy milk and various kinds of tofu, miso and natto, etc, and pressed oils, not this seed and nut butter non sense

the closest real example of vegan/plant based populations don't follow a whole foods diet, they don't eat whole grains and beans and nuts and seeds etc, and their success with artisanal tofu shops and the integration of soy products into the cuisine is really the main reason why they are able to rely on plants more heavily

 

[Nydex]

so long as your soy foods don't come from GMO soy and are not heavily sprayed with various pesticides , and the process of making tofu itself also gets rid of some % of pesticides because the "whey" water is discarded

soy can be a magnificent source of protein, several fats, minerals, while being very easy to digest , really any prospect of a vegan culture is relatively meaningless without soy because whole grains and beans and seeds are not a good protein replacement at all, the digestive burden and absorption rates of those foods makes it more of a survival option

while the closest thing to veganism which is ironically not seen in india but east asia, is based on white rice / white noodles / starch extracted from tubers , soy milk and various kinds of tofu, miso and natto, etc, and pressed oils, not this seed and nut butter non sense

the closest real example of vegan/plant based populations don't follow a whole foods diet, they don't eat whole grains and beans and nuts and seeds etc, and their success with artisanal tofu shops and the integration of soy products into the cuisine is really the main reason why they are able to rely on plants more heavily

Great points. I'm still on the fence about framing GMOs as the boogeymen of the food industry, and I intend to do another deep dive and maybe create a thread on the forum for educational/informational purposes, because I see many people throw the word GMO around in a pejorative sense, but from the very little reading I've done, this might be largely misguided and driven by misinformation spread around by producers of "bio/organic" products for a profit increase.

We'll see when I get some time to learn more about this.

 

[blig-blug]

To me, the problem with GMOs is not necessarily about health (it may or it may not be, there's nothing in the category itself that implies something about health), but about ecological damage and increased control by large companies of both food production and food producers. I avoid it for similar reasons I try to avoid the product of child or slave labor, which is not necessarily unhealthy but I still don't want to consume.

 

[northape]

No one alive is without fault right now. Our civilization creates a lot of pollution and unsafe practices because it's capital-oriented.
I won't judge it, and actually, I'm a part of it no matter what I want to believe. Somehow, we as a species have become stuck on this unwholesome idea.

My feeling is that the death of God Nietzsche was speaking about is the biggest driving force. Yes, materialism pulled many of us out of poverty and starvation,
but the idea itself leads to unsustainable practices. We'll get out of it for sure. Meanwhile, it's best to develop your own moral compass, to orient yourself towards what's good.
It won't be perfect, but someone needs to start a change, which begins on a personal level.

I like the Buddhist notion of Bodhicitta - living for the benefit of all. We can strive for a better future in our lives and influence our immediate circle through it. Education and sustainable environmental practices should be at the core here, imo. Do your best, people. We have survived through many tough times, and we'll get through this madness, too.

 

[Nydex]

No one alive is without fault right now. Our civilization creates a lot of pollution and unsafe practices because it's capital-oriented.
I won't judge it, and actually, I'm a part of it no matter what I want to believe. Somehow, we as a species have become stuck on this unwholesome idea.

My feeling is that the death of God Nietzsche was speaking about is the biggest driving force. Yes, materialism pulled many of us out of poverty and starvation,
but the idea itself leads to unsustainable practices. We'll get out of it for sure. Meanwhile, it's best to develop your own moral compass, to orient yourself towards what's good.
It won't be perfect, but someone needs to start a change, which begins on a personal level.

I like the Buddhist notion of Bodhicitta - living for the benefit of all. We can strive for a better future in our lives and influence our immediate circle through it. Education and sustainable environmental practices should be at the core here, imo. Do your best, people. We have survived through many tough times, and we'll get through this madness, too.

I agree, but in my eyes the biggest hurdle is not switching one's lifestyle to a more future-friendly mode. Rather, it's about the struggle to reconcile the actual impact of one's lifestyle on a personal level, compared to the impact industry and other sources of pollution have that is more or less independent of one's lifestyle.

To find the will to carefully separate all of your trash and recycle mindfully when you know there are 17,000 concrete factories in China running non-stop and spewing out in 1 second more pollution than you can produce in 10 years...that's the real challenge.

 

[blig-blug]

I agree, but in my eyes the biggest hurdle is not switching one's lifestyle to a more future-friendly mode. Rather, it's about the struggle to reconcile the actual impact of one's lifestyle on a personal level, compared to the impact industry and other sources of pollution have that is more or less independent of one's lifestyle.

To find the will to carefully separate all of your trash and recycle mindfully when you know there are 17,000 concrete factories in China running non-stop and spewing out in 1 second more pollution than you can produce in 10 years...that's the real challenge.

Both are compatible. IMO blaming people for their individual choices (it hasn't been done here, I just want to talk about it because it's common) is neither productive nor fair, exactly for the reasons you mention: the problem is systemic. Still, at a personal level, I try to do what I can to be consistent with my principles, although I do it in a very incomplete way. I find that doing it that helps to keep me aware of the need for systemic change, whereas if I just said "whatever, my individual actions have almost zero impact anyways " I would very likely slowly change my beliefs to feel comfortable with the statu quo.

Most often, our principles change to adapt to our actions; the other way around is rare and takes real effort. So keeping our actions aligned with our principles is a good way to keep them alive, if we care about that.

 

[Espurrr]

GMO crops are usually treated with a much higher concentration of pesticides , even if the GMO is fine, the pesticides are proven to be not fine. my 2 cents

 

[northape]

I agree, but in my eyes the biggest hurdle is not switching one's lifestyle to a more future-friendly mode. Rather, it's about the struggle to reconcile the actual impact of one's lifestyle on a personal level, compared to the impact industry and other sources of pollution have that is more or less independent of one's lifestyle.

To find the will to carefully separate all of your trash and recycle mindfully when you know there are 17,000 concrete factories in China running non-stop and spewing out in 1 second more pollution than you can produce in 10 years...that's the real challenge.

Yes, and I subscribe to it too. Our future starts right now. Spirituality tells the same story- we only have Now. You can't influence how much oil gets produced, but you can choose what you consume and how you live. If your intent is good, it'll be a drop in the flood of change. With time, something new can come. I have much respect for people who are constantly praying for this world and slowly healing our collective mental field. Once again, people lost fear of a higher power and went into a hedonistic extreme. The next stage will be about a rise in awareness and a move from fear-based control towards harmony with creation. I'm a romantic idealist to the core, it seems.

 

[Nydex]

Yes, and I subscribe to it too. Our future starts right now. Spirituality tells the same story- we only have Now. You can't influence how much oil gets produced, but you can choose what you consume and how you live. If your intent is good, it'll be a drop in the flood of change. With time, something new can come. I have much respect for people who are constantly praying for this world and slowly healing our collective mental field. Once again, people lost fear of a higher power and went into a hedonistic extreme. The next stage will be about a rise in awareness and a move from fear-based control towards harmony with creation. I'm a romantic idealist to the core, it seems.

I sincerely hope you're right, but I can't say I'm as optimistic as you, especially as someone that is neck-deep in technology and specifically AI. It's not difficult to imagine a truly dystopian future when you have a deeper understanding of these things. But who knows, maybe a regression to the dark ages is the only way forward, so it is what it is. I try to enjoy my life to the fullest while I can. As for the future - that's a problem for future me.

 

[northape]

I sincerely hope you're right, but I can't say I'm as optimistic as you, especially as someone that is neck-deep in technology and specifically AI. It's not difficult to imagine a truly dystopian future when you have a deeper understanding of these things. But who knows, maybe a regression to the dark ages is the only way forward, so it is what it is. I try to enjoy my life to the fullest while I can. As for the future - that's a problem for future me.

True. As someone who has tried to control his life for many decades, I can say that we are overconfident here. There are higher forces present in this world. Call them the law of karma or God; reality is infinitely more complex than we imagine. Ultimately, my optimistic picture of the future may become a reality, yet we will go through a lot of suffering in the process. Just as a good sword needs tempering, so do our souls need struggle to mature. When I'm down in a dark spot, I try to remember the sky, the cosmos, and the bigger picture.

We are living on a little speck of dust flying in infinite space. All our troubles are like the troubles of ants met with a tropical storm. It may flood the habitat today, but the Sun is still there, and new life will burst from the devastated landscape. Our times are hard, no question about it. Nothing changes in the end, but a wider perspective gives freedom. Everything comes from nothing and goes back to it. How would you live if you knew that it was your last day? That's the question I ask myself when I go too deep into thinking and human struggles. May all be well

 

[Nydex]

True. As someone who has tried to control his life for many decades, I can say that we are overconfident here. There are higher forces present in this world. Call them the law of karma or God; reality is infinitely more complex than we imagine. Ultimately, my optimistic picture of the future may become a reality, yet we will go through a lot of suffering in the process. Just as a good sword needs tempering, so do our souls need struggle to mature. When I'm down in a dark spot, I try to remember the sky, the cosmos, and the bigger picture.

We are living on a little speck of dust flying in infinite space. All our troubles are like the troubles of ants met with a tropical storm. It may flood the habitat today, but the Sun is still there, and new life will burst from the devastated landscape. Our times are hard, no question about it. Nothing changes in the end, but a wider perspective gives freedom. Everything comes from nothing and goes back to it. How would you live if you knew that it was your last day? That's the question I ask myself when I go too deep into thinking and human struggles. May all be well

Wise words as usual, my friend Frequently I think about the possible number of intelligent lifeforms out there in the vast cosmos, and of the potential struggles they might have, no matter how alien and incomprehensible to me. It makes me feel so small and insignificant, but in a good way. Like sure, we have a bunch of problems here on our little pebble, but who knows how many more species are out there in the dark, far away that it would take light itself eons to reach them, and who knows what monumental battles they might be fighting, both internal and external.

When you look at it that way, we're not just ants in a tropical storm, we're nothing but quarks swirling around in the vast galactic arm of a structure that, while it may appear endless to us, is but a tiny speck on the endless night sky.

 

[northape]

Wise words as usual, my friend Frequently I think about the possible number of intelligent lifeforms out there in the vast cosmos, and of the potential struggles they might have, no matter how alien and incomprehensible to me. It makes me feel so small and insignificant, but in a good way. Like sure, we have a bunch of problems here on our little pebble, but who knows how many more species are out there in the dark, far away that it would take light itself eons to reach them, and who knows what monumental battles they might be fighting, both internal and external.

When you look at it that way, we're not just ants in a tropical storm, we're nothing but quarks swirling around in the vast galactic arm of a structure that, while it may appear endless to us, is but a tiny speck on the endless night sky.

Exactly. I see planets as cradles for life to develop and reach its full potential. It's not about building a galactic civilization and spreading through the cosmos, but about seeing that inside us is the whole universe. We were never separate from it. Many sages this Earth birthed died from cancer or diabetes, yet they were fully content. That's a teaching in itself.

Yes, we try to live healthy, productive lives, but the Truth is even higher than that. So, fight the great battle, but never forget what is true. Going back to childish innocence with fully developed awareness is the final goal, imo. You just find yourself in a vast open space as that space itself. There is no separation, and love becomes the only possible response. May we all reach it someday

 

[Nydex]

It's not about building a galactic civilization and spreading through the cosmos, but about seeing that inside us is the whole universe.

There's nothing inherently wrong with building a galactic civilization, but perhaps a better task prioritization is a good idea. Speaking of the whole universe being inside of us, I'll use this opportunity to remind you of the pretty awesome fact that humans are incomprehensibly closer to the biggest thing we can conceive of - the diameter of the observable universe - than we are to the smallest thing we can conceive of - Planck length. Roughly 203,000,000 times closer, to be specific.



There is so much more inside of us than there is outside of us. To say the whole universe is inside of us is really an understatement. Pretty humbling stuff.

 

[universecannon]

GMO crops are usually treated with a much higher concentration of pesticides , even if the GMO is fine, the pesticides are proven to be not fine. my 2 cents

I mostly eat home grown/local produce or organic when possible (minus a few key things where the quality of the organic options available is far lower - such as avocados) so my memory of the GMO research is a bit dated... But with soy beans that does seem to often be the case: the GMO versions are sprayed more often or at higher levels and the tests on the produce, IIRC, often reflected that. With Bt corn though, they sometimes use less pesticides - so it might vary between GMO crops. I can't recall the research on other produce but in general that is what I'd suspect and so I err on the side of caution. Not to mention the potential environmental affects, cross contamination of other fields, allergen concerns, atrocious corporate ethics involved etc. etc.