Storage of Bufotenin

[A Day In The Life]

Hey, first of all Greetings from the Shroomery :d I recently became interested in DMT and found this great forum of endless knowledge on the subject and have been learning a great deal.

Anyways, this may not be the right forum but after many days of scouring I've finally come up with a question that I haven't been able to find an complete answer to through the search function. Also hadn't realized I needed to be promoted to post in other forums.

Anyways, I was curious as to how you can store bufotenin for long term. I've read that when exposed to oxygen it goes bad rather quickly, which put a big damper on most of my plans . I don't want to have to store it in a solution because it'd be too impractical. If vacuum sealing or storing it in a gas storage container are the only options then which would be most viable/practical and how could I go about attaining or making my own?

I also wanted to know how quickly bufotenin degrades, I saw a changa blend by Jorkest that I was very interested in trying and wanted to know if it would keep for at least a few days or if you'd have to vacuum seal (or store in gas other than oxygen) the entire changa blend to keep it as freebase.

Also sorry if I have any chem concepts wrong or anything of the sort, just recently got into this and am still learning tons or new things every day.

EDIT: oh and 1 more thing, would I be able to just use oxygen absorbers or powdered zinc to remove all the oxygen in a jar that would hold my bufotenin?

if not, would something like a modified Vacu vin like this Cold Vacuum Sealer work?

 

[69ron]

It's been SWIM's observation that freebase bufotenine doesn't actually "degrade" but rather it forms bufotenine carbonate from the carbon dioxide in the air. Bufotenine carbonate is pretty much inactive as a psychedelic, but does make you pretty nauseated. Bufotenine is off white, but bufotenine carbonate seems to be black and shiny. Note that SWIM has no proof it’s bufotenine carbonate, but it behaves like it is, so I’m 99% sure it’s bufotenine carbonate. When you re-salt this black bufotenine with HCl, it makes bubbles, which is exactly what should happen if its bufotenine carbonate. Then freebasing again turns it back into psychedelically active off white free base bufotenine again. So I’m 99% sure it’s bufotenine carbonate that is forming from it.

Bufotenine has an XLogP like that of mescaline. Freebase mescaline also forms mescaline carbonate when exposed to air.

So it's not oxygen, but carbon dioxide that you need to worry about.

 

[jamie]

My bufotenine changa lasts months..

You can reduce it i it oxides with zinc.

 

[69ron]

SWIM has not seen his bufotenine oxidize. Bufotenine N-oxide is a sticky goo, not a black shiny material. SWIM's bufotenine becomes black shiny hard material that looks like coal. Not sticky bufotenine N-Oxide.

This is when stored in an air tight container in the dark for a few months.

Maybe if stored in the open some bufotenine might oxidize into bufotenine N-oxide, but this hasn't happened yet to SWIM's bufotenine.

 

[jamie]

Phlux says that he has watched it oxidise many times and then converted it back with zinc, and that the oxides are nauseating and then he converts it its not nearly as nauseating. Ive never tried it though.

 

[Ginkgo]

Bufotenine is extremely stable. It has been found intact in 4000 years old samples. To maximize shelf life, store it air-tight in a dark and cold environment. Any freezer does the trick.

 

[69ron]

Phlux says that he has watched it oxidise many times and then converted it back with zinc, and that the oxides are nauseating and then he converts it its not nearly as nauseating. Ive never tried it though.

I’m 99% sure Phlux is wrong.

I think Phlux is not understanding the chemical reaction taking place with the zinc reduction and so he’s unknowingly spreading misinformation.

The zinc reduction when used with bufotenenin carbonate will form bufotenine HCl, and therefore it will seem as though it was “reduced” but in fact the bufotenine was simply resalted from bufotenine carbonate to bufotenine HCl and the zinc actually did nothing at all. Unless he had real bufotenine N-oxide, which is possible, but I doubt it.

SWIM never saw bufotenine form bufotenine N-oxide, but it is possible. SWIM has only seen it form something that behaves like bufotenine carbonate would. SWIM's bufotenine is 99% pure, not the impure extracts most others here are talking about. SWIM stores his in an airtight container, and it always becomes black like coal after a few months, never sticky like bufotenine N-oxide.

You can make bufotenine N-oxide by simply putting bufotenine in H2O2. It forms a sticky goo. It’s nothing like the black bufotenine people report seeing bufotenine degrade to. Both black bufotenine (bufotenine carbonate most likely) and bufotenine N-oxide are nauseating and pretty inactive. The zinc reduction tech will turn both into bufotenine HCl, producing the exact same end result, and appear to work for both, easily fooling the observer.

If your degraded bufotenine is sticky and brown or amber, it's bufotenine N-oxide. I've not heard people report this actually happening with pure bufotenine. It should form bufotenine carbonate first, and that should protect it from forming bufotenine N-Oxide. But if there's excessive heat and air movement it's possible that bufotenine N-oxide will form instead.

If your degraded bufotenine is black like coal and hard, it's not bufotenine N-oxide but most probably bufotenine carbonate. That's the only degradation SWIM has ever seen. He's never seen the sticky stuff form from pure bufotenine.

 

[Observant]

dissolved the black tar in Vinegar and some Ethanol ...
Can he make Changa from this solution , what do you think?

 

[jamie]

^ewww NO! You DO NOT want to smoke bufotenine salts! Freebase it!

 

[Observant]

I thought the acetate might freebase upon heating.
Whats the point of freebasing if my changa will carbonize in a few days anyway?

 

[A Day In The Life]

Okay so your saying that it turns into bufotenin carbonate from the carbon dioxide in the air? so powdered zinc or oxygen absorbers are useless then right?
So I should be fine to store it for a few months in a sealed jar in the fridge/freezer? and even if it turns into carbonate I can just add HCL (hydrochloric acid? or will any acid work?) to return it to a salt and then just freebase it again from there?

as long as the bufotenin Changa wont degrade much at all for a month or two then I'm not too worried.

 

[69ron]

I thought the acetate might freebase upon heating.
Whats the point of freebasing if my changa will carbonize in a few days anyway?

It's not going to happen that fast. The changa matrix is going to protect it a little, so its less vulnerable than pure freebase bufotenine is. The carbonation seems to take several weeks with pure bufotenine, and should take longer if dissolved in changa.

Using bufotenine acetate and then heating it to freebase it is an interesting idea. Has anyone here tried that?

 

[69ron]

Okay so your saying that it turns into bufotenin carbonate from the carbon dioxide in the air? so powdered zinc or oxygen absorbers are useless then right?

Right. They are useless. If it was oxidizing (very unlikely), then oxygen absorbers would help. SWIM has never seen it oxidize on its own. He's used H2O2 to forcefully oxidize it so he knows what bufotenine N-oxide looks like. The old black inactive bufotenine everyone complains about looks nothing like sticky brown/amber bufotenine N-oxide.

So I should be fine to store it for a few months in a sealed jar in the fridge/freezer? and even if it turns into carbonate I can just add HCL (hydrochloric acid? or will any acid work?) to return it to a salt and then just freebase it again from there?

as long as the bufotenin Changa wont degrade much at all for a month or two then I'm not too worried.

Don't worry about it. Pure freebase bufotenine will carbonize faster than the same bufotenine dissolved in changa. The changa matrix is going to protect it a little.

If the freebase bufotenine ever does carbonize, it turns black, and you simply add HCl to it, and then freebase it again to recover activity. As you add HCl to it, you'll see bubbles form, those are carbonic acid bubbles, just like you see in soft drinks. If it was bufotenine N-Oxide, then adding HCl would not release bubbles, and would not work to get rid of the added oxygen. Since this works to renew your bufotenine, then it cannot be bufotenine N-Oxide.

 

[A Day In The Life]

ah okay makes sense the bubbles escaping would be the carbon dioxide it reacted with I'm guessing.

when you freebase it again is any of it lost? and theres no substitute to HCL that I can use?

 

[69ron]

ah okay makes sense the bubbles escaping would be the carbon dioxide it reacted with I'm guessing.

when you freebase it again is any of it lost? and theres no substitute to HCL that I can use?

You can freebase it with calcium hydroxide as is. Mix it with calcium hydroxide and a little water and it will freebase again.

There's no need to use HCl and then freebase it again. But you can't freebase it as is with a carbonate like sodium carbonate, you need a hydroxide to freebase it. If you want to freebase it with sodium carbonate, you'll need to salt it with a strong acid like HCl. Something like acetic acid will probably not be strong enough to convert it from bufotenine carbonate to bufotenine acetate. I think citric acid is strong enough. If I recall correctly, I think SWIM did it before with citric acid.

 

[A Day In The Life]

ah ok so just take the black bufotenin carbonate and add some water and sodium hydroxide (red devil lye works?) at a 10:1 ratio (100ml water + 10g NaOH or does it not even have to be that specific?) and then just do a pull with anhydrous acetone right?

can you store bufotenin in the acetone and avoid it carbonating completely? It would be cool if I could store 5g/100ml strength bufotenin in some acetone and just measure out an ammount with a pipette to add to my changa, then I would never have to worry about it degrading.

 

[69ron]

ah ok so just take the black bufotenin carbonate and add some water and sodium hydroxide (red devil lye works?) at a 10:1 ratio (100ml water + 10g NaOH or does it not even have to be that specific?) and then just do a pull with anhydrous acetone right?

Something like that. SWIM would use calcium hydroxide because it's much safer and food grade. Do the acetone pull without delay. Don't let the bufotenine sit in the hydroxide base for too long. It's not stable in hydroxides.

You need a little water present. If you use calcium hydroxide there's less of a chance of base getting into your final product because it's almost insoluble in everything. Sodium hydroxide is much more soluble in water and can get into the acetone if there's water in it. That's not a problem with calcium hydroxide.

can you store bufotenin in the acetone and avoid it carbonating completely? It would be cool if I could store 5g/100ml strength bufotenin in some acetone and just measure out an ammount with a pipette to add to my changa, then I would never have to worry about it degrading.

That's a great idea. It should probably work. I don't know how stable bufotenine is in acetone, but it's probably very stable. The acetone should seal the bufotenine off from the air very well.

 

[bufoman]

The best way to store any tryptamine is as a salt (fumarate preferably) in an amber vial in cold temperatures. Stored in this way the compound is stable indefinitely. Most tryptamine freebases are stable if stored in this manner as well. Always protect from open air, light and heat, these are the biggest players in loss of product.

Without getting into the behavior of peoples mixtures it is possible that carbonate is forming although it could also be N-oxide or degradation. All can occur with freebase amines and the later two would be difficult to distinguish from one another as both would be water soluble whereas the former is not. Also complete conversion to any of these is unlikely to occur at any fast rate.

It is strange that the crystals turned black that doesn't sound like a carbonate salt which typically form nice crystals and are white or clear. That sounds more like some degradation product. Ron have you calculated a recovery percent for the "conversion back to the freebase"? (or weigh some before and than after to see if it takes on weight from the carbonate?)

A small amount of degradation (or impurity) less than 1% can lead to significant color changes. Thus you may just have bufotenine with a small amount of degradation on the outsides of the crystals. Is the black product water soluable? Bufotenine is barely whereas the carbonate or N-oxide will be very.

Also SWIM has analyzed H2O2 oxidation of tryptamines and the oily product contains numerous side products and typically significant starting material so unless the N-oxide is purified via column chromatography I wouldn't count on it being pure and using it as a reference standard.

 

[A Day In The Life]

ah okay calcium hydroxide it is, can I substitute lye with the hydrated lime for the extraction tek for dmt (lazymans tek) and bufotenin as well?

EDIT: a quick search revealed that I cant just replace lye with lime but I can however use lime to extract DMT as well as bufotenin, this is great news as I'd rather not have to use lye and hydrated lime seems like the better route

this should work right? http://www.canningpantry.com/pickling-lime.html

 

[69ron]

It is strange that the crystals turned black that doesn't sound like a carbonate salt which typically form nice crystals and are white or clear. That sounds more like some degradation product. Ron have you calculated a recovery percent for the "conversion back to the freebase"? (or weigh some before and than after to see if it takes on weight from the carbonate?)

The black color is strange, that’s for sure. It behaves like a carbonate though. It’s water soluble, insoluble in acetone, and when freebasing or resalting with HCl, bubbles are released. That’s exactly how I expect the carbonate to behave.

The crystals are TOTALLY BLACK, inside and out, not just on the surface. SWIM crushed them up and viewed them under a microscope. It’s actually quite beautiful. It’s shiny and black, and it looks like coal. It looks sticky until you touch it and find its smooth and hard, not sticky at all.

No calculation of the recovery percentage was done by SWIM. Maybe next time he’ll take note of that.