Sublingual or intrabuccal DMT-MAOi patch

[Ruffles]

Hello crew.

Hydrophobic films of cellulose and starch are an interesting subject of research in methods of drug delivery, either dermal or mucosal. Quick search for it on ncbi reveals that carboxymethylcellulose (or other types of cellulose) and starch based films, coupled with glycerin-glycerol as plasticizer and an acid (like citric) as cross-linking agent, is a viable resource to generate hydrophobic and edible films that may be used as sublingual or intrabuccal patch for drug delivery.

Preparation of these usually involve mixing pre-polymerized CMC-starch matrix with the target substances, then you cast it and dry it as a film and preserve it as such. You adjust flexibility and thickness on the mix of ingredients prior to polymerization. Delivery depends on sticking into mouth and avoiding licking it. You may also make the film without active ingredient, at time of administration, dose is measured, film is slightly moisturized and magic is laid on one side of the patch which goes into mouth for delivery.

What about nnDMT and/or MAOi used in conjunction with these patches? Anyone has info, deductions, opinions, suggestions?

Figured that these may help sublingual administration as the patch sticks to the mucosa, avoiding saliva dilution and inevitable swallowing. Here`s a homemade example (poor picture of a work in progress).

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's exciting to see people trying out new things. Dose it and report back?

Presumably you've seen some of the recent sublingual (HPBCD) threads? There's a lot of potential here.

 

[starway7]

About the transdermal aproach...how about EMU oil with spice?


some info below.......





An Emu Oil Trans-dermal Study
Posted by Dee Dee Mares on Sep 5th 2018

One of the most interesting properties of Emu Oil is its ability to penetrate through the skin barrier and carry other compounds with it. When Dr. Paul Smith, Professor of Pathobiology at Auburn University, Alabama conducted a study in conjunction with the American Emu Association to determine whether or not emu oil would work as a trans-dermal carrier his conclusions were “if you don't want it to get under your skin, don't mix it with emu oil.”

The Emu Oil Transdermal Study
Dr. Smith stated that one of the most important points of any research is not so much the principal component that you are investigating, but the kind of controls that you use. In this study, he wanted to compare Emu Oil to another well-known trans-dermal carrier - DMSO. DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is an all-natural substance derived from wood pulp used primarily in Veterinary Medicine to carry various kinds of drugs into deep muscles and the bloodstream.

The drug chosen to transport was Ketoprofen, very much like ibuprofen, a commonly used over-the-counter pain relief medication. Although Ketoprofen is a very potent anti-inflammatory, non-steroidal drug, it can cause serious problems such as indigestion, renal dysfunction, fluid retention, and jaundice when taken orally. Therefore, the effort was to determine whether or not Emu Oil could transport the compound trans-dermally in an effort to avoid some of the side effects from oral use.

Six control groups used the following combination of ingredients:

Alcohol compound Propanol and Ketoprofen.
Emu oil mixed with the alcohol compound Propanol and Ketoprofen.
DMSO mixed with bovine serum and Ketoprofen.
Mineral oil and Ketoprofen.
DMSO, emu oil, and Ketoprofen.
Isopropyl alcohol and Ketoprofen
Six groups of mice were chosen at random, base level blood samples were drawn for later comparison. The mice were caged separately and treated individually, then placed back into the cage. For the treatments, an area of skin over the back was selected, and the fur was clipped with extremely fine clippers so that the presence of hair would not interfere with the compound. Using a small syringe .2mils of the compound were drawn and spread over that area of skin. The mouse was then put back into the cage to be left for a half an hour.

Blood samples were taken from the tail of the mouse immediately following the treatment. Dr. Smith explained that an area of the mouse’s tail was cleaned with an alcohol swab and a vein in the tail was nicked to collect the samples. After collection, cells were separated from the blood using a high-pressure liquid chromatograph then evaluated for the amount of drug in the bloodstream.

The Results
Test results indicated the amount of Ketoprofen found in the bloodstream of the mice as follows:

Propanol and Ketoprofen showed 6 units.
Emu Oil, propanol and Ketoprofen showed around 700 units.
DMSO in bovine serum and Ketoprofen showed less than 200 units
Mineral oil and Ketoprofen showed approximately 300 units.
DMSO, emu oil, and Ketoprofen showed over 800 units.
Isopropyl alcohol and Ketoprofen showed about 200 plus.
This study indicated that emu oil worked well as a penetration enhancer of medical substances. A further test was then conducted with straight Emu oil and Ketoprofen. The results were very close to the Emu Oil and DMSO compound.

“We feel that this bit of information gives us a place from which to work to continue to use anti-inflammatory drugs to be carried through the skin to treat conditions that would be very meaningful, not only in animals but in humans as well, and we are excited about what we are seeing,” said Dr. Smith.


note...[Does DMSO penetrate the skin?
Image result for dmso for transdermal drug delivery/
DMSO 70%–90% will readily pass through the skin. This permeability allows the drug to enhance the diffusion of other medications across membranes (e.g., morphine sulfate, penicillin, steroids, and insulin)

 

[Ruffles]

At this moment there is some difficulty in generating the proper film for intrabuccal appliance, it requires a near perfect mix of components to make a film that is elastic and resistant enough to be manipulated without breaking. Prototypes so far easily stick into the mucosa and stay there easily which is essential, but removing it intact from the aluminum foil mold is difficult, so you can only get small pieces of the film, there is no silicone mold to help. Therefore, there`s a need to get the recipe correctly (it`s roughly 3:2:2 cellulose-starch-glycerol, it might run 3:1:1, 2:2:1... plus citric acid, something like 1-0.5% final volume).

Some plans:

- Get film right, slightly moisturize one side (could add tiny amount of DMSO or other `carrier`), dab fumaricDMT onto moisturized side, wait for it to redry and stick it in there. (with DMT on one side only, maximize contact of the magic with the mucosa)

- Make film WITH magic in the matrix, meaning a blotter paper like object. Before molding, add specific amount of DMT and-or MAOi with cellulose-starch mix, homogenize, put it in mold, dry it (room temperature, because of DMT) and stick it in there. (with magix in matrix it will spread in mouth as patch slowly dissolves).

- Make film with `adjuvant` carrier (DMSO or the suggested EMU oil or any other thing)

About the transdermal approach...how about EMU oil with spice?

Haven`t heard of EMU oil, will read up on it, but wouldn`t it be a vehicle? Like DMSO, increasing permeability of the substance? The patch has a distinct purpose, to increase contact of substance with mucosa, which would increase absorption (because it is locally concentrated) without actually messing with permeability. Patch and vehicle are complementary though, I like the idea of DMSO or EMU oil with the patch.

Presumably you've seen some of the recent sublingual (HPBCD) threads?

Yes, it was the inspiration for this. Reading up on HPBCD, it seems that it applies to freebase, not fumaricDMT, the focus here. Also, argument goes like previous, cyclodextrin would be like a carrier or such, increasing permeability, patch seems to have a different purpose, which is to increase contact and concentration with mucosa. There is some logic in adding a bit of sucrose or maltodextrin to the patch, it might `turn on` mucosal absorption. Like said before, patch and a vehicle are complementary.

 

[ava69]

Thanks Ruffles, very nice post and details.

I've been working with sublingual HPBCD complexed fb DMT for 5 months now, with 45 experiences, this counts the number of times I re-dose in an evening which is 2 more re-doses every 1.5 hour, around once every 2 weeks have a journey, although early on I used it once every 7 days or so, but have gone back to once every 2 weeks usually.

Downwardsfromzero has been very helpful with his idea posts on polysacharride activity.

9.25.2021: post #272: Journal: 50 Sublingual | <span style="frontcolor:pink !Important ;">High Pobability of Braindamage by Creepy non tested Drugs (forced by scammer 69ron)</span> | DMT Ayahuasca journeys over a years time - Pharmahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Latest Journey #45: 300mg oral THH + 30mg sublingual HPBCD fb harmine + 110mg sublingual HPBCD fb DMT

 

[Ruffles]

Thank you ava69 for the debate on HPBCD!

Taking out thh, your dosing regimen is very similar to mine, roughly about 3 redoses per whole trip, 20-50 mg freebase carbolines + 10-30 fumaricDMT each dosing every 2 hr. 8 hr of bliss in 3 waves. All sublingual, no HPBCD. Every 2 weeks intervals.

I apologize for the previous picture. Here are well focused pics, shows how flexible and thin the films can be.

 

[Ruffles]

Also, for the HPBCD guys out there. Here`s an example paper using both film and HPBCD teks (doi: 10.1016/j.ijbiomac.2020.07.272). In this case, HPBCD is mixed with the film prior to casting, making it part of the film.

There are so many papers and reviews on the cellulose film subject if you do a simple search, can`t point to the best one. 10.1016/j.ijbiomac.2021.03.147 , 10.1016/j.carbpol.2020.116664

 

[Ruffles]

Just like to add some progress to anyone who cares.

To make the substrate is super easy, its very forgiving on the recipe. Its something like 100 mg CMC (other types of cellulose should work, a more accessible alternative would be chitosan, but the recipe is different, the result is almost the same except that there is evidence that chitosan films considerably increase absorption over cellulose ones) + 100 mg starch (corn worked) + 2-3 drops of glycerol (100-200 ul?) + 50 mg citric acid all into 15 ml of water. First mix CMC and water in a recipient, heat and mix a lot to dissolve. Second add citric acid and starch and glycerol, heat (you may boil, but its better to do a heat bath) and mix again to become homogeneous, it will turn white due to the starch. You`ll know its good when it all dissolves and it turns slightly translucent.

To make the film is also easy. Make aluminum foil molds by folding, an area of 10 x 5 cm is good for 7 to 15 ml substrate (more substrate makes it slightly thicker, more resistant at the end, but with care a thin one works just fine). Add it to the mold, heat oven to 60 celsius more or less, turn off and put the molds inside, very important to keep the molds levelled to the floor. It will dry enough over 2-3 warm oven runs, should take 1 day or more. It will lose a lot of water and become almost transparent. To check if its ready, just touch the surface with something, it will be obvious.

To remove the films, first off, know that it wont be fully dry yet, the surface touching the foil will still retain water and the film, although polymerized, will be extremely elastic and difficult to manipulate. So, cut the foil to remove excess without film, do a quick wash in running water and very carefully peel off the (again, very elastic) film. Takes a couple of tries to get the hang of it. Has the texture and consistency of condoms. You can peel a bit off, stick that part into a glass, hold it to the glass and pull the foil off keeping the film stretched. Leave it somewhere clean to further dry out (one more day at room temp).

After really dried up, the film will be almost a solid, very easy to manipulate. When you wet it, it becomes elastic again. If you put too much glycerol it will be elastic even if dry, if you put more starch it will become more solid after dry. Again, its very forgiving on the recipe. At this point you may save it between sheets of paper in a dry place, don`t let the films touch each other or fold over itself. You may cut it to size with scissors.

To use, cut films to desirable sizes, get your known amount of magic (fumaric DMT with or without harmalas) dissolved in a small amount of water, put that on one side of the film and smear it over it, remembering that when you add water it may shrivel somewhat. Also remember that if you got it right, its apolar, water should not transverse it, even if looks like its absorbing some of it. Leave it to dry, if you put a small amount of water it should be very quick. After its dry enough you just stick it under your tongue or cheek and keep it there for 5 min or so. It will spread over the mucosa and stick there for a couple of minutes if its dry enough, but if you move it too much it will shrivel up and not work as well. Size matters, a big film will not fit in there comfortably.

It hits faster for sure. You just feel that the bitter DMT taste doesn`t spread all over the mouth so you swallow very little while its stuck in place. No body high whatsoever (or better described as body low, specially that first hour). Regimen is: first hit of an evening trip requires priming with sublingual harmala only (30-50 mg) followed 15 min later by 20 mg DMT sublingual, that`ll get you to slight tracers-CEV-lightOEV on that order after 1 hr. After that its supplementation with 5+5 or 10+10 D_H patches every album or hour will keep you on the OEV height again. Vaping or changaing 2-5 mg DMT 10 min after patch makes OEV dominant and starts visual hallucinations for 20-30 min duration.

Conclusion: no body discomfort, no gastrointestinal mess, fast effects and consistent hits. Spent less magic to get to OEV states than doing straight sublingual.

Final observation here: since the film would have some amount of unpolimerized citric acid, adding the harmala to the wet film turns it polar and a fluorescent yellow tinge. This can be avoided by washing the films on more water after peeling to remove excess unpolimerized stuff. There is some discussion here on freebase harmalas being more bioavailable, but there`s no hard evidence for that.

 

[some one]

Thanks for sharing, this is great!

I love seeing how the sublingual route is gaining track. Smoking is too short for me and oral is very in the emotional realm, perfect for healing, but i wish to 'explore' as well. this sounds perfect.

Looking forward to more results with higher dosages with these films.

:thumb_up:

 

[Ruffles]

Looking forward to more results with higher dosages with these films.
:thumb_up:

About those higher dosages, have to be careful to not overload a single film patch (lets say, 30 mg is a lot on single patch of 3 by 3 cm) on the fear that it may burn the mucosa. MAOi at 30 mg makes the mucosa numb, DMT not that much. You don`t really feel it burning at all, but it certainly may, its a full contact film, it may disrupt the mucus over the mucosa which is a protective layer.

A suggestion would be to stick to 5_5 or 10_10 MAOi-DMT and make more 3x3 cm patches to place in a different spot, to be safer.

 

[Ruffles]

Thinking about how the prepared films when rewetted feels like condoms, this maybe a little crazy but I bet that you can actually make it with condoms.

Just get some condoms, wash it with detergent to get the lubricants out, cut reasonable pieces of it, flatten it out, dry it somehow, smear stuff in one side, let it dry again... then just go for it.

 

[some one]

Rubber works? So when using the film the spice doesnt react with the film in any way? Meaning only function of the film is to apply the spice, you could use anything such as paper, cotton, etc?

Just get some condoms, wash it with detergent to get the lubricants out, cut reasonable pieces of it, flatten it out, dry it somehow, smear stuff in one side, let it dry again... then just go for it.

I believe that the best thing to do is experiment yourself and report results to the rest. Also with higher dosages

 

[starway7]

Rubber works? So when using the film the spice doesnt react with the film in any way? Meaning only function of the film is to apply the spice, you could use anything such as paper, cotton, etc?

Just get some condoms, wash it with detergent to get the lubricants out, cut reasonable pieces of it, flatten it out, dry it somehow, smear stuff in one side, let it dry again... then just go for it.

I believe that the best thing to do is experiment yourself and report results to the rest. Also with higher dosages

are you talking about a sublingual patch?...a patch similar to a transdermal patch?

Just how is this thing applyed?

try this instead..
Why not just make ...a.. [liquid dmt maoi acetate solution]..
....desolving dmt and rue into warm white vinegar] .and absorb it into some soft dense foam..
[similar to a noise iliminating foam ear plug]... cut the small peice of foam just the right size to fit under tounge..

You can hold the dmt maoi mixture under tounge [or in cheek]..with the peice of foam holding the mixture in one spot..and every minute or less you can gently press down on foam plug releasing the liquid sublingually for some time..then release tounge pressure on foam plug pulling the mixture back into the foam plug..preventing it from going dowh throat....

Ive tryed this idea in past ..[[but without using ...[HPBCD]...and got low dose dmt effects ..

After holding [dmt rue solution]... under toung [for 15 minutes] using foam plug]..[i was very relaxed..[almost catonic]..as i stared at objects on the walls that seemed to take on a signifigant importance to me...I remained this way for close to an hour ..just sitting and staring at objects on my walls including wall power plugs ..that seemed to stare or grin back at me...
i felt like a child with an over active imagination making living things of everything i looked at..

this was was not a powerfull experiance ..but it was but it defenantly diferent than how i felt before the sublingual... dmt rue solution aplyed using foam plug sublingually..

maybe?.. i should have held it sublingually longer...bt there was a lot of saliva after 15 or 20 minutes of holding under tounge...

Im shure the rue got through just fine sublingually...but the molecule size of the dmt may have prevented full sublingual absorbtion/?

If there is any truth to HPBCD boosting sublingual absorbtion...one might try using it in a mixed solution this way..

The sublingual foam plug method basicly keeps the solution in one place under toung alowing concintrated absorbtion through the tissue under toung....the sponge action..preventing most of the solution from draining down the throat...

A clean new foam ear plug can be trimmed to fit under toung.. after soaking the mixture with the HPBCD...

just dont understasnd how a patch will stay in a mouth that makes saliva constantly/



just found this info on transdermal dmt!




Biotech Co. Psilera Inc. Closes $2.5 Million Seed Round For ...https://www.yahoo.com › now › biotech-co-psilera-inc-...



Biotech Co. Psilera Inc. Closes $2.5 Million Seed Round For ...https://www.yahoo.com › now › biotech-co-psilera-inc-...
Jul 1, 2021 — Psilera has developed a patent-pending DMT transdermal patch to be assessed ... The compound's short duration is believed to enable possible ...

 

[some one]

Sounds interesting, but what dose was used?

are you talking about a sublingual patch?...a patch similar to a transdermal patch?

Just how is this thing applyed?

I was referring to Ruffles OP talking about using hydrophobic films of cellulose and starch, but who ended suggesting that a simple piece of rubber (cut from a condom) could (in theory) work just as good. Which made me wonder, if rubber can be used, whats the point is of using any medium at all instead of just placing the DMT straight under the tongue the way ava69 explains in the complexed DMT method:

- Drink the THH and wait 45 minutes.
- Administer the complexed DMT and the Harmala together sublingually.
- Keep the mixture under the tongue and protect it from getting diluted by saliva.
- Spit the mixture out after 15 minutes, do not rinse your mouth clean.

If you feel the need to get rid of any saliva before the 15 minutes is over, simply tilt head forward and relieve the built up salvia into a cup while still holding any remaining HPβCD DMT under tongue.

Ive researched the sublingual route and concluded that its not really effective (just as the data in this thread suggests tbh).
So dont see how using films and other mediums make this route more potent, while all that does is slow absorption.
I'm looking forward to a report of a non complexed DMT dose administered sublingually with strong effects. Until then its theory.

So.. Please experiment more (increase dose) and report back :thumb_up:

 

[Ruffles]

I was referring to Ruffles OP talking about using hydrophobic films of cellulose and starch, but who ended suggesting that a simple piece of rubber (cut from a condom) could (in theory) work just as good. Which made me wonder, if rubber can be used, whats the point is of using any medium at all instead of just placing the DMT straight under the tongue the way ava69 explains in the complexed DMT method:

The films i`ve experienced so far were cellulose based, and why use that stuff? Because its easily available, stupid easy to do, there`s sufficient scientific papers with reproducible methods (read recipes) for it, food safe (meaning you can just chew on it and swallow after you`re done), adding absorption enhancers into the matrix (citric acid, alcohol, glycols, DMSO, chitosan)... anyways, I could hype more of it, but there is obviously benefits to this otherwise it wouldn`t be a dosing method for anything else.

The (untested) suggestion to use rubber is just because its even more stupid easy to find and do, absolutely safe for your mouth and may do what the film does, which is increase local concentration against the mucosa which WILL increase absorption.

Ava69 is using freebase DMT to HPBCD by the way, its a somewhat different problem, this thread is on fumaric DMT and freebase harmalas. HPBCD (absorption enhancer) and films are complementary, not mutually exclusive.

Why not just make ...a.. [liquid dmt maoi acetate solution]..
....desolving dmt and rue into warm white vinegar] .and absorb it into some soft dense foam..
[similar to a noise iliminating foam ear plug]... cut the small peice of foam just the right size to fit under tounge..

The idea of a film or a patch at its core is to increase local concentration near the mucosa that will absorb it, that by itself will increase bioavailability of anything. So you need something that keeps DMT_MAOi from spreading all over the mouth, something that is hydrophobic and flexible enough to adhere and mold into the mucosa, in such a way that it sticks there for a while and the saliva won`t dissolve it and spread all over or make you swallow it. I don`t think a foam (ear plug or whatever) will work as well as a film because the saliva or magik may go in and out of the foam. I would say that it probably is better than just dropping salt under the tongue though.

If its dry enough, it sucks up some of the surface water and mucus and just sticks where you placed for 3-5 minutes or so.

I already said fumaricDMT_MAOi on a film under the tongue is faster, more pleasant and more effective per dose rather than just straight up salt under the tongue. This is just my anecdotal experience and I totally get it if its unconvincing. We all know here that I may report hundreds of attempts with hundreds of dosages here but it will fall flat if there is no independent confirmations anyways. I have enourmous `faith` on peer review.

 

[Ruffles]

Another quick update.

Tried adding over the counter low quality chitosan to the CMC-starch films and the insoluble chitosan stays inside the film (captured in there, not polymerized in there). Why chitosan? Chitosan is known to increase permeability of molecules into the mucosa, just run a google on chitosan films for drug delivery. Mechanism is related to chitosan`s ability to disrupt the mucus OR disrupt mucosal structural morphology, thus increasing intracellular molecule transport as molecules travel between the cells into tissues (thus increasing relative absorption). To add chitosan to CMC-starch films: chitosan has to be added to water and boiled previously, then filtered to get only well dissolved stuff, then you add a bit of this chitosan-water filtered into the CMC-starch blend and follow whatever you need to do to make the CMC-starch film. At the end you get the films like described before, you can see some precipitates into the CMC film, that`s chitosan. Films when fully dried are yellower and more easily broken than plain CMC-starch. Probably disrupts the CMC-starch polymer somewhat, but the film is stable inside the mouth (meaning it won`t dissolve or rip apart by the saliva or whatever).

Also working with pure chitosan films, but over the counter chitosan (for weight loss or whatever) appears to be low deacetylated percentage, meaning a product that has not been properly prepared (chitosan is shrimp chitin that is NaOH treated, the better the treatment, the higher deacetylation level, the better it will polymerize by itself). Recipe to make those is simple, get well deacetylated chitosan 1-2% w/v, add acetic acid 1-2% (white vinegar), boil that, then cast it and dry it.

How to deacetylate the chitosan? Get chitin-chitosan well micronized or powderized, add it into 1 M molar NaOH or KOH overnight, then filter, the insoluble precipitates are now more deacetylated which should polymerize better. Haven`t tried this yet, want to see if straight chitosan makes workable film because its simpler, but most likely deacetylation of cheap substrate is a requirement unless you order lab grade 90% deacetylated chitosan.

 

[Ruffles]

Also... on chitosan film preparation: it is usually recommended that chitosan be dissolved in water overnight at 70 celsius under stirring, sometimes with acetic acid into it, this is probably because it is very difficult to dissolve at all. Heavy sonication of chitosan in water would probably help it to dissolve even more. The more those chitin molecules are separated, the better they would polymerize after solvent removal (casting and drying step), making a thicker and more resistant film. CMC-starch films are extremely forgiving.

Another reason to try chitosan instead or with cellulose films is that different molecules absorb better with chitosan than cellulose films or whatever else... my understanding of it is that most of this comes from trial and error experimentation, there`s no reigning principle like apolar molecules absorb better than polar ones.

And here I state the problem: Mucosal histologies are far too complex, it ain`t just a barrier against polarity or the opposite, there are layers of things, cells, molecules or protein matrices that act distinctively over molecules. Some molecules we absorb because we have specific receptors and channels, others catch a ride with these absorbed molecules, others just travel between the gaps or within the membranes, many we actually absorb very well but are metabolized too quickly for it to have a desired pharmacological effect. When you look at pharmahuasca in this context, that is, DMT and inhibitors, psychedelia being the expected pharmacological effect (if it is a thing), complexity level is squared. Different rates of absorption, synergistical effect of one over other, distinct turn over rates... you name it.

Solution for sublingual and intrabuccal dosing would come similarly with trial and error and intrepid kitchen chemists. You just can`t calculate any of it or state in any way or fashion whether it is possible or not. Also, shouldn`t really expect that this method would beat smoking 30 mg freebase or something like `now we have a oral breakthrough method...`, this is just silly.

A personal note: The territory of a DMT-MAOi experience appears to be vast. Seems like there are many angles of insertion. Gotta try some new tricks and see what happens right?

 

[Ruffles]

Update on chitosan film made from over the counter cheap chitosan: sadly, it didn`t polymerize following 1% filtered chitosan with 1.5% acetic acid. I bet its due to the low deacetylation level of this `non-analytical grade` reagent, also it is not well micronized. Should try to deacetylate a lot of it using 1 molar NaOH sometime in the future and retrying. For now, just have to consume that chitosan and see if the losing weight hype of it actually works (most likely doesn`t, most likely will just give that nasty shrimp smell in my breath).

For now the focus is in the usage of incorporated small amounts of chitosan into CMC-starch films (which works, some insoluble chitosan clearly goes into the film and stays there) and if that increases effect somewhat (needs bioassay).

Also very interested in adding enhancers like oils (from coconut oil, emu oil), propylene glycol aka PPG (from e-liquid for vaping), menthol (from vaping e-liquid, mouthwash), alcohol, DMSO and others when smearing magik onto the films prior to dosing.

 

[Ruffles]

Update on chitosan film attempts using over the counter chitosan: shit just doesn`t work at all.

Tried micronizing it using professional grade needle sonicator, and 30 minutes of it at 50% potency (which is a lot) is NOT able to fully dissolve or micronize the chitosan, which was amazing. Shrimp armor truly is near invincible. Guess it takes enzymatic processing to get it to fully breakdown to molecule level. If it stays insoluble like that it just won`t work to polymerize into a film. Also tried boiling it for a long time or leaving it in warm water overnight which dissolves a tiny amount of it, even after sonication.

Also tried doing the deacetylation on it, which is just a 1 M strong base overnight treatment then filtering and washing solids to reset pH to neutral. This was also subjected to sonication which didn`t work. It didn`t form a good film after all of it.

Some of it does dissolve after deacetylation and sonication, but it it very difficult to recover with filtering or centrifugation and thus you can`t wash it to reset pH.

Seems like over the counter chitosan needs to be lab grade >90% deacetylated to make proper films.


Should stick with carboxymethylcellulose films then...

 

[Ruffles]

Another update for whoever is trying to keep up with this...

Improvements on the preparation of the films is to definitely use proper molds for it, with flat bottoms, instead of aluminum foil (which works just fine, but the film seems to stick strongly to aluminum compared with PP or PE plastics, therefore its harder to peel them off without ripping them apart)... silicone molds work beautifully if it can take heat. Small petri dishes also work perfectly, but it can`t take high temperatures so the drying process after casting takes longer.

CMC-starch films with small amount of filtered chitosan were tested for fumaricDMT-MAOi combos like described previously and they worked like previously, can`t really say the added chitosan is improving any absorption at all. Should stick with CMC-starch only to keep it simple and easy. It`s still possible that chitosan only films may work better than cellulose.

Can also confirm here that dosing only sublingual 30 mg fumaricDMT on CMC films, without predosing MAOi sublingually, gives a slight euphoria for half an h, maybe some light headedness, does not get up to CEVs or any other desired effect. For comparison, vaping 5 mg freebase without MAOi is far stronger, going to tracers and CEVs for a short amount of time. Remember that preferred dosing regimen here is 30-50 mg MAOi on film sublingual, 15 min later add 20-30 mg fumaricDMT on film sublingual, no vaping, that`s a 1-1 1/2 hr guaranteed at least CEVs and OEVs experience, strong tracers, low body high.

Another intense and unforgettable psychonaut experiment conducted was half a blotter of supposedly 200 ug LSD on the film sublingual. That was very very fast 1 h come on, passing through CEV and OEV phase in like 30 min or so followed by very strong and clear visual hallucinations for 4 hours. Amazing visuals. Very disorientating. 6 h after consumption an intense but pleasurable afterglow of crystal lights went on for many hours. Afterthoughts were that it was either laced with nBOME, which is probable these days, if not then the film greatly enhanced the absorption.

Resulting comments: Most of the dosing info on LSD appears to indicate 150 ug as the common dose, however, that is a blotter inside the mouth or drop in a glass type of consumption... lots of swallowing going on. It is an oral dose recommendation, which assumes gastrointestinal absorption which implies liver metabolism or first pass effect. I believe there are actual controlled experiments that indicate that it is 100% bioavailable orally (ex doi:10.1002/dta.2821), so let`s assume that you don`t actually lose LSD by swallowing. However, the first pass effect definitely delays drug entry into the blood, which should not happen if you bypass the liver (ie: smoking, IV, IM, sublingual). In this sense, a well absorbed sublingual dose would get to the brain faster and therefore reach higher concentrations at a peak timepoint compared to same peak timepoint in oral doses... which could explain the enhancement of effects when using absorption enhancers such as films. Summarizing: Films get the stuff faster into your brain, allowing for a higher peak concentration and therefore you get higher?