:surprised Why is it...?

[cnc]

By way of introduction and first posting.

When my question is outweighed by the complexity of the answer, science has taught me to ask simpler questions. One paradox that I am here to explore is that these tools seems to be teaching me is to look for richer and more complicated answers to some hard questions. Thank you for including me.

I have a simple question today.
If a molecule like DMT slumps @ 120f (48.8ish c) and sublimates @ 160f (71c), then why would the active alkaloids not just leave the boiling root bark with the steam in the first part of a typical acid/base extraction?

 

[Cormac]

Hey welcome to the forum. I thought about this too. I just left the lid on so the steam couldn't escaped. I don't know I'm new at this too. Have fun!

 

[cnc]

Thank's Cormac for the kind greeting, lot's of love to you and yours.

After giving my question more time and looking into it a little deeper I am more baffled than ever.

Everyone seems to agree that this (boiling bark) is how it is done. Chemistry that I read and test seems to indicate that boiling would ruin the extraction with hydrogenation, sticky oils , outright destruction and loss of the target molecule.
My TLC is inconclusive with collected steam. Shuglin claims (and I tend to agree) that DMT is too fragile for chromatography.
How to test?
How to test?

 

[chr0nic]

Welcome cnc

This thread is worth a read. It may answer your questions.

I'm still learning the ropes here, so I can't really weigh in on the topic...

I hope you find what you're looking for!

My best,

 

[cnc]

Thanks Chr0nic (fellow twin peaks enthusiast) I saw that post and some others like it good and bad.
Some pretty wild numbers there.

to summarize:
The clean crystals will melt to thick liquid at ~120f (a hot cup of tea water is the right temp for the heat source for a spoonful of naptha and ~1g Chrystal ) and IF at sea level pressures will evaporate from the surface of that liquid at ~160f. These liquid and gas molecules hold heat well and oxidize which is why (imo) they are difficult to handle and heat evenly and at the right speed.

Material that hydrogenates in the extraction (5-MEO-___) moves the freezing point a little lower and the boiling point a little higher.

My experiment confirms this:
### Boiling points and melting points are uncorrected. Melting points were recorded on a Buchi-510_C instrument.
### Infrared spectra were recorded on a Perkin-Elmer Infrared-683 spectrophotometer with KBr optics. Spectra calibrated against the standard polystyrene absorption at ~1600.05 cm-1.

So no more blah blah blah from me. I am going to go do the experiment of making one batch with boiled root bark, one batch with freeze dried bark and one with the 1st(boiling) stage kept under 210f and contained.

 

[cnc]

Results are in:


Significant reduction in yield ocures if the source material is boiled as is generally recommended.


Equal amounts (1k (wet) ea.) were processed (1) Boiled, (2) heated to 200f in pressure cooker and (3) freeze dried.

Freeze dried preparations seem to be a non-starter.

Open boiling (4 hours) reduced yield by ~25%.

 

[Loveall]

How do you know the difference is not from the pressure cooker being more efficient at extracting?

When in salt (pronated) form during the acid boils it is my understanding that DMT-H+ does not boil away with the water.

How about starting with a filtered PC acid soup? Then open boil half of it for 4 hours adding back water to keep volumes equal. Then check yield for each half.

 

[cnc]

Loveall:
You are right, there are certainly some unanswered questions left from my experiment. Your third point "Then open boil half of it for 4 hours adding back water to keep volumes equal. " is just what I did except that since the closed pot builds up pressure I used the heavy kitchenware , also I had an arduino rigged with a thermister to control the hotplate temp. .

As for your second point, most experienced extractors will agree with you but my experiment does not. It was globally understood that the sun goes around the earth and the guy that said different got in big trouble, maybe because he delivered the news like a dick. I don't claim that my results are any definitive answer, just that I was reasonably careful. My hope is that others build on this for all of our benefit and also to make my little contribution to things....

I used Phalaris for my experiment, maybe someone with MHRB or Acacia will weigh in with results for those?

In the mean time:
"Keep a lid on it"

 

[melotikaci]

I have a simple question today.
If a molecule like DMT slumps @ 120f (48.8ish c) and sublimates @ 160f (71c), then why would the active alkaloids not just leave the boiling root bark with the steam in the first part of a typical acid/base extraction?

If I remember correctly that temps are for freebase. When you boil your root bark it's in acid salt form and has higher melting/boiling points.

 

[Forestwalker]

I think it's because of it being free base as well. Forces at work between it solvating out of the bark into whatever you choose may cause some dispersion forces to present themselves and bonding of course with acid s as love all stated . Perhaps some is lost still as well,