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Surprising Conclusion

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Yes Endless: Art, after sending you that 1 (one) poem of advice, I did send an apology through Antrocles.
Of course, I think that you should have offered your own apology too, but I guess you do not feel sorry?

Art, I think that your opinion of what I have written here at the Nexus has been made perfectly clear.
And, I think that my opinion of what you have written here at the Nexus has been made perfectly clear.
We both have made our opinions perfectly clear so there's no need for us to write about each other now.

I promise to not comment on your comments and to not PM you of course, since it obviously makes you angry.
And I hope you can promise to not comment on my comments and to not PM me of course, since it makes me sad.
If we can both stop thinking about each other, we can invest that energy into positive sharing of our experiences.
You're here to learn and to share, I'm here to learn and to share, everyone here has the same goal, let's stick to it.

Now, back to what my friend of a friend shared above, the author's original post is true, kind, and helpful, I stand by it.
I hear some folks saying, "I didn't have the same experience, I doubt that." Well, the author knows what he wrote is all true.
It's interesting, Jorkest's friends even stood (!) on over 40mg, but no one replied "Jorkest, I think you or your friend are wrong."
Can we all please remember that just because YOUR experience was "X" that doesn't mean someone else's "Y" experience is untrue.

I feel that comment #6 by Gilbran2 was the most on-topic to the real point being discussed in Orange, I welcome such on-topic sharing.
If anyone else would like to share their true, kind, helpful, thoughts about "A and B" (Real AND Painted) I would be grateful. Thanks. :)
 
I was glad to oblige your request to comment only on your conclusion that our perception of hyperspace and associated phenomena are a product of both our brain’s “rendering circuitry” and external “energy” of some sort.

However, if there are parts of your post that you don’t want others to comment on, then perhaps it’s best not to post such things? I think it’s reasonable to assume that anything and everything we post on this site is open to comment by others reading the posts. This is one of the reasons we post, after all. Isn’t it?

You described a DMT experience that, although intense, does not fit what many consider to be a breakthrough. I personally consider defining characteristics of a breakthrough to generally include –

1 --- An out-of-body experience: the sensation that I have left my physical body and am no longer connected to it. There are no eyes to open, there are no legs to stand on, etc.
2 --- Full immersion in another realm. I am no longer in my room, or even in this universe. I am fully immersed in a “place” that is elsewhere.

I hope you can see why some people are perplexed: You describe a breakthrough which, although very intense and troubling, is not really an experience that most would consider to be a breakthrough. Of course, we weren’t there.
 
I'll be happy to accommodate you, Ya. For the record, your poem was about as creepy and ick producing as if you had mailed me a Valentine's Day card, complete with box of chocolates and dead fish wrapped in your underpants.
 
Gibran2, you wrote, "This sounds like an intense breakthrough, but I’m surprised that you were still in your body – able to experiment with opening and closing your eyes, making attempts to speak, etc. Not to diminish your experience, but it actually sounds like a rather “typical” breakthrough (with the understanding that no breakthrough is really “typical”). I’m wondering if you agree? How was this breakthrough different from others you had prior to it?"

It seems to me that the jist of what you were trying to convey was, "This sounds like an intense SUB-breakthrough, because you were still in your body – able to experiment with opening and closing your eyes, making attempts to speak, etc. Not to diminish your experience, but it actually sounds like a rather “typical” SUB-breakthrough (with the understanding that no DMT experience is really “typical”). I’m wondering if you agree that your experience was actually SUB-breakthrough? How was this supposed "breakthrough" you described above different from the SUB-breakthroughs you had prior to it? Basically, I think you merely had a SUB-breakthrough." Is this close to the jist of what you were trying to convey?

Again, since you keep wondering, the author feels that one thing that marks SUB-breakthrough is the fact that opening one's eyes changes the scene. For example, in a SUB-breakthrough one might be seeing fantastic CEVs, but opening one's eyes during a SUB-breakthrough shows mere slight OEVs. I.e., during a SUB-breakthrough, the CEVs can range from slight to intense, but opening one's eyes during that shows merely a "trippy" view of the room. Items in the room may appear fractalized, warped, changing, etc., but the fact that room items can be slightly seen at all marks a SUB-breakthrough, IMO. The author is saying that during his breakthrough he opened his eyes and could NOT see any part of his room at all: that, was ONE sign of full-breakthrough.

Seconds before that, the carrier-wave sound had instantly come on so strongly increasing in loudness and pitch until the sound of glass-breaking, another sign. As the sound of glass-breaking happened the jester was instantly seen on the left, totally-vivid totally-clear totally-3D, totally-different than SUB-breakthrough. The 3D location part, the fact that it was NOT a symmetrical centered-in-the-center vision like seen on SUB-breakthroughs, was yet another sign that "This is it." The background behind the jester, the "walls" in this "room" were not AT ALL like the transforming changing relatively 2D fractal background of sub-breakthrough. The background walls were "set", unmoving, with one standard pattern (as if the walls were totally inlaid with point-cut diamonds with 4 colors in each diamond.) The jester was totally "set", the box he was popping out of was set in place on my left, not in the center, and that was the second thing that was a major surprise.

All of the above was enough to instantly tell the author that he had broken through (there wasn't ever a doubt in his mind, there isn't to this day, there won't ever be, how could there be, if you've ever broken through you KNOW you've broken through, so all claims to the contrary from outside parties are absurd) but the biggest surprise, the thing that really drove it home, is ironically, the thing some folks seem unable to believe. How funny. The ultimate proof for the author that this WASN'T a mere sub-breakthrough is to some folks the ultimate proof that this WAS a mere sub-breakthrough. The open eye part. Anyway, when the author then tried to "escape" from this scene, by opening his eyes, he instantly discovered that there was absolutely no change, the jester and the background remained exactly as it was, right there, ultra-vivid, undeniably-clear, completely 3D, no change at all between closed eyes and open eyes. The only effect of opening and closing his eyes was the sound of metal (strangely, it sounded like the stereotypical movie-effect sound of a sword being drawn from it's sheath, which is an interesting coincidence because 6 hours AFTER the trip a sword did appear in the author's dream, don't know if there's a connection between the 2 events or not, but do know that the author has never had any interest in swords at all.)

So, when opening and closing his eyes 2 or 3 times produced mere metallic sounds, the author realized that Yes, just as the jester had announced, "This, is, it", ha ha, there was no early "escape" possibility, the only thing to do was to pray with gratitude for the fact that (actually the HOPE that) this journey into hyperspace only lasts about 5 minutes (even that figure was mere hopeful wishing, of course, from others reports it could be 7 minutes, it could be 15 minutes, it could be 10 minutes while feeling like 10 years or 10 centuries, but the author simply prayed for it to be just 5 minutes.)

That's another point that I'm surprised people are surprised by, is it really so unbelievable that some people ARE able to remain centered enough to feel gratitude and able to remind oneself that it will all pass? I guess some folks who can't believe that are basically saying, "I personally haven't been able to do that, so I am sure that YOU wouldn't be able to do that, thus you must be kinda' incorrect about what you experienced. You must have had a SUB-breakthrough. And by claiming that you WERE able to do something, which I personally was unable to do, you are thus ipso-facto calling us veterans a bunch of dilettantes." Look, the author doesn't know what YOUR experiences have been like, he simply knows that he, for the first time, fully immersed in hyperspace, having broken through past whatever it is that causes that breaking sound, having entered an inescapable 3D world, still SOMEHOW retained the same centered perspective, the same rational awareness, this doesn't make him any better or you any worse, it simply is a report of what he experienced.

Even though the visions were totally intense, a 3D jester on the left, 3D diamond-pattered walls in the background, panning to the right revealing a huge 3D green celtic-rope face, all of which remained perfectly set in their respective locations, still the author continued to do what he felt was the most rational thing to do, show gratitude for being allowed to see that other dimension, and gratitude in advance for the possibility of being allowed to come back down to reality where his children and wife were sleeping. The author knew throughout the experience that he had smoked DMT, he knew that he had finally broken through as he had set out to, he knew that according to people's reports one does come back, he knew from learning from the reports of Antrocles and others the importance of feeling gratitude before and during the journey, to keep the journey positive. I think even Terennce explained that in his experiences he remained the normal rational him, even when deep in hyperspace, while seeing the astounding visions, his thought process remained the same, he felt just as he would if he were to see such entities if he were in the sober state. In this author's experience, he was able to see a alternative dimension around him, but the "him" didn't change. The question remains as to whether that alternative dimension was created subjectively by his mind, or whether it exists objectively as a physical dimension that simply has a higher frequency of vibration, or whether it is, as he has currently concluded, a combination of both.

Some have decided to focus on their theory that the author didn't actually breakthrough because he was able to open his eyes (even though opening his eyes did NOT allow him to see his own room, even though opening his eyes did NOT allow him to see his own body, even though opening his eyes merely produced a metallic sound and a 100% continuance of the 3D hyperspace room he was seeing.)

Here are some quotes that might surprise some folks, if you really think it makes sense to tell Nexus members that their experiences were mistaken, then fine, please feel free to go tell Ragabr and Idtravlr and Vovin that they are incorrect about THEIR breakthroughs:

Ragabr wrote, "SWIM always remains somewhat aware of her body during her breakthroughs. Even when she was taking severely large dosages."

Idtravlr wrote, "I personally am a huge fan of open eye rides into hyperspace, and without a doubt open eyed breakthroughs. I actually make a point, when I'm going really, really big to try and keep my eyes open. My absolute best breakthroughs have been with my eyes open. The world around me has completely transformed into a circus of beings, in full multi-dimensional spectrum dancing and playing about the world around me. The room I'm sitting in no longer exists in any way shape or form, rather I transform into some alternate dimension, my physical body no longer exists, nothing that I would ever know as the reality I was previously existing in exists, but with eyes fully open. The "other side" comes to me with my eyes open, rather me going to it. Does that make sense? I know it sounds crazy... I honestly believe that if one has not gone deep enough to bring hyperspace into the world around them (eye's open) then one is really missing out on some incredible magic."

Vovin wrote, "I have tried every possible premutation of experiences I can think of. Eyes open as opposed to eyes closed is a totally diffrent experience in themselves. Also try tripping and looking at yourself in the mirror. It really blows your mind. The more I have taken of the spice the more I have learned to control it. In the beginning I would say that what you say is true about leaving your body behind but these days I can function prefectly while under the spice I have even taken large dosages and sat in a class room and participated. I think as with all things DMT related there is no one way or experience each is highly unique to the individual and every person has a experience that is generally similar but in detail totally unique. I hit a few B Caapi bowls before class and then a quick bathroom break with a strong hit on the pipe full of spice. I did this because I have recorded myself before and found that I am actually far more eloquent and confident in my speaking when I am on the spice. with enough control you do not have to go to the other side you can bring the other side to you. takes practice and well lets face it i'm a lil crazy anyhow so no one really suspected anything. It's not as impossible as you think. I began by going for a walk on a popular trail under spice then going into stores while on it etc.. until I felt I could control the situation. I have never actually measure a dosage in my life out of hundreds of journeys. I have a idea of the amount I need and when taking it in while using a MAOI I pretty much know when I have had enough. I rarely overshoot you dont have to smoke everything in the pipe. I just hit it until I know I have had what I needed."

Yeah, I also am surprised at the degree to which Vovin's experiences are different from most people's experiences, but I don't think, feel, or write, thoughts such as, "Hey man, I don't mean to diminish your experience, but I don't think you know what it means to breakthrough."

So, the author in the original post of this thread opened his eyelids (with no change in vision), he prayed internally and even tried to voice the prayer (which was unsuccessful, he didn't have full control of his lips, the words came out all garbled), he panned both his consciousness and his physical head to the right (proven to him by the fact that when the effects wore off about 5 minutes later and reality slowly became able to be seen again, the author's head was facing the alter on the right.) If those 3 surprising things make you think that the author's undeniable breakthrough was "not a breakthrough", then fine, think what you want, post what you want.

As for myself, I am much more interested by the topic brought up in the name of this thread, the conclusion which was written in orange. I think that much more important than debating details is coming to a consensus about the big picture here. We tune into a real dimension, AND, we paint that dimension.
 
I'm in total agreement with you on this Ya. Not to beat a horse, but one other distinguishable aspect of a breakthrough for SWIM, that I picked up in your account, is the discontinuous aspect. One starts experiencing really strong psychedelic phenomenon /-/ breaks through /-/ comes back and is still experiencing really strong psychedelic phenomenon.

Regarding tuning into a real dimension, I'm in agreement with Gibran2 that some experiences are obviously externalizations of internal states. Do we consider that tuning into a real dimension of energetic processes in my body mind, and them being painted with metaphorical imagery?

Other experiences feel completely real, but speaking of them as occurring in a particular place doesn't feel like it makes any sense. It's almost like the content is always going on everywhere, if that makes any sense.

Another class of experiences that feel completely real that SWIM has sporadically, she breaks through into another body, floating in a tank of liquid with connections all over her. Like Neo waking up to his tank in The Matrix or the Hybrids from Battlestar Galactica. Sometimes she's alone, sometimes a bunch of familiar faces are encouraging her to go back in, things were getting better and better and they want to see the end.

Her primary issue with taking every DMT breakthrough as tuning into a real dimension, is that many are mutually contradictory. For one to be really real, other's have to be really false. Then we're left wondering how to distinguish.

Edit: Gibran2 is quite right in his response below, contrasted to DMTripper's unqualified assertion.
 
Ya - Thanks for bringing those varied experiences and experiencers to my attention. I referred to your experience as a breakthrough because that’s what you called it. It’s not what I call a breakthrough. But there is no standard definition of a breakthrough, and the subjective nature of DMT experiences and their ineffability both conspire against our best efforts to accurately communicate them.

What I was saying was that your breakthroughs, as far as I can tell, are not like my breakthroughs. This is something I’ve said in many posts regarding DMT experiences in general and occasionally when comparing my experiences to those of others: We don’t all experience DMT in the same way. The question often comes up (and it’s one of the questions you addressed in your first post) “Is it real or is it imagined?”. I’ve often said that how we answer that question depends on the nature of our DMT experiences.

There are some DMT users who never see entities (a notable one is Martin Ball). It’s not unreasonable for such an individual to surmise that entities are the product of the subconscious, the ego, etc. and are obviously not “real”. Others see only colorful geometric patterns and conclude that “hyperspace” is the product of a drug-addled brain. I personally find the relationship between types of experiences had by people and their beliefs or ideas about those experiences to be fascinating. That’s why I ask questions such as the questions I asked you. No need to get defensive – I’m not singling you out.

Your Idtravlr quote includes one of the issues I was originally addressing: To say “my physical body no longer exists” but “with eyes fully open” is a logical contradiction. If one’s physical body no longer exists, then we can’t say things about its various parts. If one is aware of having eyes open, then one cannot claim that the body no longer exists.

When I have an OBE during a DMT experience, there simply are no eyes to open. “I” can see and direct my sight to areas of interest, but I’m not seeing with eyes. I think I commented on this very topic in one of Vovin’s threads, so, again, I’m not singling you out.

Your breakthrough experiences don’t seem to be consistent with or similar to mine. I was curious about this and asked you a few questions about it. Rather than share with me, you initially avoided answering the questions and suggested I stick to the “surprising conclusion” topic, which I did. No need to be so defensive!
 
Wait, Gibran, there must be some confusion here, let's clear it up together.

Looking back at page one of this thread, here is what I see from my perspective:
you asked me a question in post #3, and I immediately shared my answer in post #5:

Question:
"This sounds like an intense breakthrough, but I’m surprised that you were still in your body – able to experiment with opening and closing your eyes, making attempts to speak, etc. Not to diminish your experience, but it actually sounds like a rather “typical” breakthrough (with the understanding that no breakthrough is really “typical”). I’m wondering if you agree? How was this breakthrough different from others you had prior to it?"

Answer:
"@gibran2
Good question. The author said that he felt a sub-breakthrough is marked by the fact that opening one's eyes changes the scene.
For example, in a sub-breakthrough one might be seeing fantastic CEVs, but opening one's eyes during that shows mere slight OEVs.
In the author's full-breakthrough, he opened his eyes to discover absolutely no change: the CEV scene remained with eyes wide open.
As he opened his eyes there was a metallic sound, when he closed his eyes there was a metallic sound, yet the scene remained constant.
Of course there is the chance that author merely thought he was opening and closing his eyes during that time, perhaps it was all CEVs.
No proof, but the author is quite sure that he had 100% OEVs AND he ended the trip looking to his right (thus turned his physical head.)
Perhaps it is surprising that one could have a full-breakthrough while remaining centered enough to slightly move eyes, lips, and head.
I don't think anyone can walk around during a full-breakthrough, of course, but in this author's experience, head movement was possible."

It seems clear that your question was promptly answered Gibran, I wonder if perhaps there is the chance that maybe you accidentally scrolled past it?

Then, looking at page 2 of this thread, here is what I see from my perspective:
in post #22 you AGAIN brought up your theory that the author did not experience a breakthrough.

To recap, post #1 clearly shared what the author experienced during his first and only breakthrough, post #5 clearly answered your question asked about what set the author's 1 breakthrough apart from his 4 sub-breakthroughs, and then, since you were STILL expressing your belief that the author did not have a breakthrough, the author even gave FURTHER details in post #25:

"Again, since you keep wondering, the author feels that one thing that marks SUB-breakthrough is the fact that opening one's eyes changes the scene. For example, in a SUB-breakthrough one might be seeing fantastic CEVs, but opening one's eyes during a SUB-breakthrough shows mere slight OEVs. I.e., during a SUB-breakthrough, the CEVs can range from slight to intense, but opening one's eyes during that shows merely a "trippy" view of the room. Items in the room may appear fractalized, warped, changing, etc., but the fact that room items can be slightly seen at all marks a SUB-breakthrough, IMO. The author is saying that during his breakthrough he opened his eyes and could NOT see any part of his room at all: that, was ONE sign of full-breakthrough.

Seconds before that, the carrier-wave sound had instantly come on so strongly increasing in loudness and pitch until the sound of glass-breaking, another sign. As the sound of glass-breaking happened the jester was instantly seen on the left, totally-vivid totally-clear totally-3D, totally-different than SUB-breakthrough. The 3D location part, the fact that it was NOT a symmetrical centered-in-the-center vision like seen on SUB-breakthroughs, was yet another sign that "This is it." The background behind the jester, the "walls" in this "room" were not AT ALL like the transforming changing relatively 2D fractal background of sub-breakthrough. The background walls were "set", unmoving, with one standard pattern (as if the walls were totally inlaid with point-cut diamonds with 4 colors in each diamond.) The jester was totally "set", the box he was popping out of was set in place on my left, not in the center, and that was the second thing that was a major surprise.

All of the above was enough to instantly tell the author that he had broken through (there wasn't ever a doubt in his mind, there isn't to this day, there won't ever be, how could there be, if you've ever broken through you KNOW you've broken through, so all claims to the contrary from outside parties are absurd) but the biggest surprise, the thing that really drove it home, is ironically, the thing some folks seem unable to believe. How funny. The ultimate proof for the author that this WASN'T a mere sub-breakthrough is to some folks the ultimate proof that this WAS a mere sub-breakthrough. The open eye part. Anyway, when the author then tried to "escape" from this scene, by opening his eyes, he instantly discovered that there was absolutely no change, the jester and the background remained exactly as it was, right there, ultra-vivid, undeniably-clear, completely 3D, no change at all between closed eyes and open eyes. The only effect of opening and closing his eyes was the sound of metal.

So, the author in the original post of this thread opened his eyelids (with no change in vision), he prayed internally and even tried to voice the prayer (which was unsuccessful, he didn't have full control of his lips, the words came out all garbled), he panned both his consciousness and his physical head to the right (proven to him by the fact that when the effects wore off about 5 minutes later and reality slowly became able to be seen again, the author's head was facing the alter on the right.) If those 3 surprising things make you think that the author's undeniable breakthrough was "not a breakthrough", then fine, think what you want, post what you want."

Now since in post #27 you are still mistakenly writing "your breakthrough experiences", I really wonder if perhaps you missed the part at the top of Post #1 where the author wrote,

"First, I had four sub-breakthroughs, and then... one major (accidental overdose) FULL breakthrough."

Gibran, to avoid any further confusion, could you please share your answer to the simple question asked in post #25?

It seems to me that the jist of what you were trying to convey was, "This sounds like an intense SUB-breakthrough, because you were still in your body – able to experiment with opening and closing your eyes, making attempts to speak, etc. Not to diminish your experience, but it actually sounds like a rather “typical” SUB-breakthrough (with the understanding that no DMT experience is really “typical”). I’m wondering if you agree that your experience was actually SUB-breakthrough? How was this supposed "breakthrough" you described above different from the SUB-breakthroughs you had prior to it? Basically, I think you merely had a SUB-breakthrough." Is this close to the jist of what you were trying to convey?

I think that the answer is probably, "Yeah Ya, that's close to the jist of what I was trying to convey. What's the point?"

The point is our terminology will thus be confirmed as on the same wavelength: SUB-breakthrough is NOT a breakthrough.

You seem to feel that any body movement during a trip marks it as a SUB-breakthrough = NOT a breakthrough. Correct?

Here's an interesting question for you then: in your breakthroughs, when you "direct your sight to areas of interest",
have you considered the possibility that in addition to your minds-eye panning around, your physical head might be too?
For example, let's say you start your breakthrough looking straight ahead, did you ever end with your head turned at all?

If you filmed your next breakthrough, and found that you DO slightly move while in hyperspace, would that mean that you have not had any real breakthroughs all this time up until now? Or would it simply mean that your original definition of what the body can do during a breakthrough was mistakenly limited?

I think that there are enough reports here on the Nexus of members here who have watched their friends having serious breakthroughs, and even videos floating around, giving clear evidence that it IS possible for people to move slightly during breakthroughs. Just like during dreams. Some people twitch. Some people roll their eyes around behind closed eyes, REM style. Some people move their arms a little. Some people turn their heads. Some people mumble something. Some of the body-movers described above are AWARE that they moved slightly during their breakthrough, some the people described above are simply UNAWARE that they moved slightly during their breakthroughs, and some folks are somehow absolutely sure that their body was totally limp while they "had an OBE".

I think saying something to the effect of, "If you were aware of your body at all it wasn't a real breakthrough" is analogous to saying "If you kept a bit of lucidity at all it wasn't a real dream."

Perhaps what we are discovering here are two flavors of breakthrough: one where the person basically passes out and has an "OBE" while seeing the hyperspace dimension, and another where the person remains able to slightly send electrical impulses from the brain to the body while seeing the hyperspace dimension.

Gibran, there is no need to post it on the internet of course, but seriously, I think in the name of science, discovery, and self-honesty, you might really want to consider filming your next breakthrough, to see if your body really is in the limp OBE state you think it is.

Either the video will show you first-hand evidence that your body doesn't move, and thus you will become more sure of your theory that that all the body-movers in the world have not been having real breakthroughs, or the video will you show you first-hand evidence that your body does move, and thus you will realize your definition of a breakthrough was merely mistakenly limited up until now.
 
ragabr said:
one other distinguishable aspect of a breakthrough for SWIM, that I picked up in your account, is the discontinuous aspect. One starts experiencing really strong psychedelic phenomenon /-/ breaks through /-/ comes back and is still experiencing really strong psychedelic phenomenon.

Regarding tuning into a real dimension, I'm in agreement with Gibran2 that some experiences are obviously externalizations of internal states. Do we consider that tuning into a real dimension of energetic processes in my body mind, and them being painted with metaphorical imagery?

Other experiences feel completely real, but speaking of them as occurring in a particular place doesn't feel like it makes any sense. It's almost like the content is always going on everywhere, if that makes any sense.

Another class of experiences that feel completely real that SWIM has sporadically, she breaks through into another body, floating in a tank of liquid with connections all over her. Like Neo waking up to his tank in The Matrix or the Hybrids from Battlestar Galactica. Sometimes she's alone, sometimes a bunch of familiar faces are encouraging her to go back in, things were getting better and better and they want to see the end.

Her primary issue with taking every DMT breakthrough as tuning into a real dimension, is that many are mutually contradictory. For one to be really real, other's have to be really false. Then we're left wondering how to distinguish.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ragabr :) I'm going to think about your post for a day or two, it really interests me. I think that somehow the "BOTH" idea can explain that the seemingly contradictory differences between trips are in fact non-contradictory. I'll see if I can come up with a better way of explaining exactly how, but basically I think the jist of it will be: if one unconsciously mentally "dresses up a plain canvas spirit" in body style A today, and then one unconsciously mentally "dresses up a plain canvas spirit" in body style B tomorrow, the differences between the body styles seen at different times are not contradictory if the body-less spirits were all plain canvases in the first place.

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I feel that this would even explain how the dream-world and the hyperspace-world and the between-births-world are all are actually blank canvases with real spirits floating around that we paint upon.

Recently, I happened to see a movie that illustrated beautifully this concept, I highly recommend it, it is totally on-topic: "What Dreams May Come". Please watch it and let me know if this idea solves the "differences" issue you're thoughtfully bringing up.

Meanwhile, I'll take some time to think more about what you wrote. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)
 
Ya said:
Some of the body-movers described above are AWARE that they moved slightly during their breakthrough, some the people described above are simply UNAWARE that they moved slightly during their breakthroughs, and some folks are somehow absolutely sure that their body was totally limp while they "had an OBE".

I think saying something to the effect of, "If you were aware of your body at all it wasn't a real breakthrough" is analogous to saying "If you kept a bit of lucidity at all it wasn't a real dream."

Perhaps what we are discovering here are two flavors of breakthrough: one where the person basically passes out and has an "OBE" while seeing the hyperspace dimension, and another where the person remains able to slightly send electrical impulses from the brain to the body while seeing the hyperspace dimension.

Gibran, there is no need to post it on the internet of course, but seriously, I think in the name of science, discovery, and self-honesty, you might really want to consider filming your next breakthrough, to see if your body really is in the limp OBE state you think it is.

Either the video will show you first-hand evidence that your body doesn't move, and thus you will become more sure of your theory that that all the body-movers in the world have not been having real breakthroughs, or the video will you show you first-hand evidence that your body does move, and thus you will realize your definition of a breakthrough was merely mistakenly limited up until now.
Click to expand...
It has taken you numerous colorful bold-faced paragraphs to say what I have now repeatedly said: We define breakthroughs differently. There’s no formal definition of a breakthrough, so that’s perfectly OK.

Regarding body movement, etc. during an experience: I’ve never filmed myself during an experience, so I can’t say what’s happening during an OBE, but I can say that I return from my journeys in the same place I started them. During an OBE I have no idea what my body is doing. That’s my whole point – there is no awareness of body during an OBE. As far as I know, I get up and dance around my bedroom with eyes wide open, then return to my original spot. Who knows?

Anyhow, it’s not a question of whether or not one’s body is moving or not moving, eyes open or closed, etc. during a breakthrough. It’s, as you yourself pointed out, a question of awareness. You cannot claim to have an OBE (and I don’t think you did) and at the same time claim to be aware of your body (unless you’re aware of it from a different point of view – for example, you look down and see your body lying there with eyes open). You cannot say “I was no longer aware that I had a body” and also say “I was aware that my eyes were open”. That’s a logical contradiction.
 
The numerous colorful bold-paragraphs are quotes showing that I repeatedly answered your repeated question.
You have repeatedly stated that you don't think the author had a breakthrough. We got it. You have been heard.
I have repeatedly replied to your theory (clearly pasted above) yet you claimed (in post #27) that I didn't. (???)

Here's a question, has anyone ever come to your breakthrough report with, "I don't think you had a breakthrough."
I think not, most nexus members usually don't repeatedly say that other members didn't have a real breakthrough.

You can say that you didn't use those exact words, but your point is coming across clearly. Not a breakthrough.
If you truly feel that idtravlr's (and others') breakthroughs were not breakthroughs, that's like, your theory.

Of course you're entitled to it, but I don't think repeatedly posting that theory here seems respectful at all.
Here, this post is what I felt was a perfectly polite response to your thoughts about the surprising conclusion:

Ya said:
I'm glad to read your reply, Gibran2.

About the false-dichotomy of "real spirits" vs. "mental creations", I'm glad to see you have come to the same conclusion.

Please forgive the fact that I mistakenly thought the "both are true at the same time" conclusion hadn't been expressed before.
You've stated that same conclusion repeatedly, as have others? Then MUCH respect for having stated the false-dichotemy is false.
I somehow had gotten the impression that most folks see the question as being "A or B" so I'm glad to hear you see it as "BOTH".

House talked about seeing scaffolding, yet I hadn't noticed anyone saying "spirits are plain energy packets which we 'dress up'."
I currently think that on DMT some mental filters are temporarily removed, allowing us to see faster-vibrating-energy-collections,
( "spirits" ) which we paint over, specifically with the degree of abstractness being relative to the degree of unconsciousness.

Thank you for seriously considering what I was offering, and thank you for politely pointing out that it has already been offered.

I'm happy to have received your thoughtful reply Gilbro :) Thank you. :)
Click to expand...
 
Does it really matter to you if others think you’ve had a breakthrough or not? Why would it matter?

A DMT experience is an experience. It’s a subjective experience. What’s important is how the experience effects us, whether we call the experience a “breakthrough” or an “OBE” or a “near-death experience” or a “sub-breakthrough” or anything else. Your experience led you to discard certain things and to realize that DMT experiences may have both an internal/brain component and an external “energy” component.

Great!
 
This is turning into a discussion on how you recognised you've had a breakthrough and whether OBE's can be marked as a distinctive feature.

Then it comes to defining OBE's. If you have an experience like you're somewhere else and you can see, hear, feel and smell the place and you're experiencing it as if it's real and you experienc it with a body, just not the body that's lying down at that peticular moment, would that count as an OBE? I would say it does in the sense that you've 'abandoned the body' that's lying there temporarily.

But there realy isn't a single distinctive feature of breakthroughs i think, other than the feeling of a 'total experience', a sensation or feeling that couldn't have become greater, more immersive, spectacular, beautyfull or convincing if you'd taken a higher dose.
 
For me it's not a breakthrough if you are still aware of your body or surroundings. That's how I define a breakthrough. When you leave this world behind.
When coming back from a breakthrough I need to re-member this life I have here. I have to re-member that I actually smoked DMT.
 
DMTripper said:
For me it's not a breakthrough if you are still aware of your body or surroundings. That's how I define a breakthrough. When you leave this world behind.
When coming back from a breakthrough I need to re-member this life I have here. I have to re-member that I actually smoked DMT.
Click to expand...
This sum's it up for me.
 
It does seem that Mr. Ya is spending waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time defending the precious breakthrough rather than what he claims to want to discuss (the orange words, I think). This is my whole problem with labeling the DMT experience; rather than talk about what you experienced, the majority of this thread is a defense of terms. A thrust and parry of tiresome definitions.

Had you not even mentioned the word "breakthrough" and just talked about what you felt and saw, I think this discussion would be more productive for you.
 
tetra said:
Had you not even mentioned the word "breakthrough" and just talked about what you felt and saw, I think this discussion would be more productive for you.
Click to expand...
This is totally non-standard for the Nexus, and one of the main points that Ya made early on in this discussion. As Gibran2 speaks to, the breakthrough experience varies very much between people, but that doesn't make it a useless term.

Why chastise Ya about using this terminology when most of the Nexus experience reports involving a breakthrough refer to it as such?
 
ragabr said:
tetra said:
Why chastise Ya about using this terminology when most of the Nexus experience reports involving a breakthrough refer to it as such?
Click to expand...

I am chastising the term, not Ya. The term is antiquated and should evolve with the times. It starts obsessive thinking in people (look at the endless amount of threads of people asking if their experience qualifies as a breakthrough), trying to squeeze into definitions rather than just reporting what happened.

DMT defies categories, and people at the Nexus should strive to be so noble.
Click to expand...
 
It seems to me that when a nexus member posts a question like, "Hey everyone, I'm not sure, I don't know, I can't tell, do you think I had a breakthrough or just a mere sub-breakthrough?" then of course, repeated posts by Gibran2 and DMTripper expounding their opinion that "Well, in my opinion, you did not have a breakthrough, because my definition of a breakthrough says that if you thought about your body at all it wasn't a breakthrough" would be a logical thread progression.

But when a nexus member simply posts their breakthrough experience with an interesting uniting conclusion about the big picture, it seems totally disrespectful and illogical for Gibran2 and DMTripper to repeatedly say, "You didn't breakthrough man, in my humble opinion of course, just my 2 cents. Let's change this thread into a debate about whether or not you can tell the difference between your 4 sub-breakthroughs and your 1 breakthrough. Let's repeatedly ask Ya what HE thinks is the difference between the two totally different levels of experience, and then, when he has answered the question, let's say that he didn't answer the question, and then, when he pastes evidence that he DID answer the question, let's say 'Man, this guy Ya sure is harping on about what HE feels is the difference between a sub-breakthrough and a breakthrough. HE sure is fixated on the term. LOL."

Look, in case some folks have forgot, the author's original post was simply sharing his account of his first breakthrough and his conclusion after thinking about it for awhile. There really was no need for Gibran2 and DMTripper to repeatedly post their "not a breakthrough, in my opinion, not a breakthrough" theory.

How about repeatedly posting your theories about what IS and what ISN'T a breakthrough on a new thread you create, in which case it will be on-topic, instead of trying to have a debate about the meaning of the word breakthrough with a member who simply posted his account his first breakthrough.

If you do decide to go start such a new thread, here's a quote you can take with you there to work with. Absolute proof, according to your theory, that Terennce McKenna did not have a breakthrough:

"And then, you break through it. You break through it, and then you're in this place, and there's an enormous cheer which goes up as you pass through this membrane. Some of you may know the Pink Floyd song about how the gnomes have learned a new way to say hoo-ray? They're waiting. And you burst into this place, and you're saying, you know, 'Geez, you know, this stuff is really speedy.' (laughter) That's like describing a Space Shuttle launching as noisy, you know? (laughter) And you say, 'Am I all right? Am I all right?' That's the first question, and so then you run your mind around the track, and you say, 'Hmm. Heartbeat normal? Yeah, normal, heartbeat normal. Pulse normal? Breathing? Breathe breathe breathe, yes.'" Terennce McKenna

Good luck with your upcoming thread that all the body-aware breakthrough folks, and all the body-moving breakthrough folks, didn't "really" breakthrough, according to your definition based on your experience.

But again, start your own thread for that debate. This thread was simply an experience report with a surprising conclusion, not a "What is your definition of a breakthrough" debate invitation. Let's please get back on-topic:

Ya said:
Legal Disclaimer: The story below is fantasy fiction.

First, I had four sub-breakthroughs, and then... one major (accidental overdose) FULL breakthrough. The full breakthrough made me thank God/The-Conscious-Universe for allowing me to experience going to the other side, but even more than that, I thanked God/The-Conscious-Universe (both during the experience and after) for allowing me to come back. This is the story of the full breakthrough.

That night I began by writing a love letter to God/The-Conscious-Universe

"I will to learn
what the universe
wills me to learn.

I will to see
what the universe
wants me to see.

I will to do
what the universe
wants me to do.

Love Gratitude

I love you
truly.
I love you
forever.

Please let me hear the carrier wave tonight."

I packed a bowl (I have no idea how much was there, I never had a scale, I simply created a pile of pure spice in the bowl about the size of a bowl of bud) and sat with my legs crossed. I vaporized and held 2 huge thick hits (the vapor was so thick, I instantly realized I had packed and inhaled "too much", much more than the usual 0.05 gram dose people take.)

Suddenly I heard the carrier wave I had been hoping for for so long, increasing in loudness and pitch up and up as this sound/vibration tuned my spirit/consciousness/awareness to an extremely high frequency.

It didn't seem like I was going somewhere else, there was no "warp speed moving through a tunnel to a far away place" image or feeling for me, not at all, this sound simply quickly began and increased in loudness and pitch until there was a breaking glass sound and I was suddenly tuned into a frequency/dimension that we usually aren't tuned into.

(It seems to me like this frequency/dimension is always right here, existing just as radio waves are right here existing wherever we are, we simply are not usually tuned into it. So it's not about "going" anywhere far away, like traveling to the pleiades or something, it's about tuning into the reality that exists right here right now.)

Anyway, when the carrier wave sound suddenly gave my spirit/consciousness/awareness/third-eye/whatever the ability to see this higher frequency/dimension, first came 2 small surprises, and then came a big surprise.

The first small surprise was: when I broke through, right in front of me yet slightly to my left was a jester's head, connected to a metal spring, popping out of a box (a jack-in-the-box), saying telepathically "This is it! This, is, it!" twice in a welcoming way.

It had a jester cap on its head (pointy triangle-shaped tips with balls on the end) and the same kind of jester thing around its neck (pointy triangle tips with balls on the end), below that was merely a metal spring coming out of a box.

What? A jester? Why a jester? And why does it have an inanimate body?

Of course I had read about the wide range of entities which people have reported seeing, and a few people had described jesters, but I did not at all expect to see a jester myself, because I didn't have any interest or strong feelings about jesters, neither negative nor positive.

So, since I wasn't expecting to see a jester, my first impression was that I was not creating this with my mind, that instead I was seeing a spirit that actually was there, existing, right next to where I was sitting, slightly to my left, exactly where a desktop computer sits (which made me think that this was the "spirit" of the inanimate computer, perhaps the electricity coursing through it, the frequency which the computer emits, has a corresponding "spirit" which would help explain why its image was half animate, half inanimate.)

Next, I realized the second surprising part of this vision, it wasn't just an eye effect centered in the center of my vision, it was definitely slightly to my left.

This was surprising to me, because in the past, when I had done LSD and mushrooms, I never saw anything that "wasn't there", I never hallucinated really, but I did see a slight breathing of everything, and I saw a centered symmetrical snowflake-style pattern applied upon everything, with the center being wherever my eyes looked, for example if I looked down at the ground, the random gravel seemed like it was actually a symmetrical snowflake-style interesting pattern, and if I looked at a wall there was the same snowflake-pattern, the snowflake-pattern stayed in the center of my field of vision no matter where I looked, so I knew that effect was just related to my eyes. If the snowflake pattern were to stay in one stationary place, while I slowly panned elsewhere, that would have been a surprise, but no, with LSD and mushrooms, in my experience, the snowflake pattern always stayed in the center, and thus was just an eye effect, like wearing glasses with a special kaleidoscope lens.

So, this half-living jester was surprising in this way, because from the start, it wasn't just a snowflake pattern, and it wasn't in the center of wherever I looked, it was on my left.

Next, came the big surprise: I decided to open my eyes, to see what my room would look like with eyes open, and was absolutely shocked to see absolutely NO CHANGE!

Eyes Open, Eyes Closed, Eyes Open. Absolutely the same either way. My eyelids meant nothing. Opening my eyes merely produced a metallic sound, the vision I was seeing remained the same regardless. This really made me worry that I had really loaded too much, that I had really inhaled too much, that I would be unable to ever return to my usual frequency to interact as usual with my children and wife, that I would be stuck seeing this frequency, this dimension, forever, that my children would come to my room 7 hours later and I wouldn't be able to see them.

So, I had only been tuned into this other frequency for about 7 seconds so far (probably 3 seconds looking at the jester, and 3 seconds opening and closing my eyes) and yet already I began praying: without trying, without pretending, not mentally, totally from my heart, I was saying within my heart, Thank you! You let me in, and you let me out. 5 minutes. Just 5 minutes. Thank you for letting me go back to my family! I know you will. I know this will all pass. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You let me come here, and you let me go back. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

I even tried to vocalize these heartfelt feelings, but the words came out garbled, I wasn't in full control of my speaking ability, which again made me concerned that I wouldn't be able to communicate with my family again, I thought maybe I had done too much and had broke something in my physical brain, and thus I would no longer be able to see the "regular" frequency/dimension where my family lived, and I would no longer be able to speak with them.

That was my rational concern, but I continued to simply thank the universe in the present for the fact that in 5 minutes it would let me go back to the usual frequency/dimension where I would be able to be with my family again.

Then, while giving thanks for the fact (the hope) that seeing this dimension was just temporary, I felt I was being watched by something slightly behind me to my right. So, I turned my eyes/consciousness slowly to the right, away from the jester, I basically kept panning to the right with both my consciousness and my physical head, until I found what was there.

There was a large, round face, watching me, observing me neutrally, a face about 1 meter wide, and about 1.5 meters tall, floating with it's huge "eyes" about level with my eye level, but its eyes were actually holes, as was its mouth, the whole face consisted of energy moving like a perfectly-symmetrical continuously-moving interlocked-rope celtic-knot winding in and out of itself, it was like a ball of thick rope connected in a loop, and this continuously flowing rope made up this floating face, and I got the feeling that this was the "real" spirit, and that the "half animate half-inanimate" jester "toy" that was on my left at first had been placed there by this green large face spirit, who had placed itself slightly behind me and to my right, because this green large face spirit had wanted to watch me unnoticed.

So there I was with my head turned to my right, staring face to face with this giant head being, which was green, one could say the interlocked--flowing-rope that made up its entirety was like continuously moving snakes, but I didn't get a snake vibe at all, so I simply describe it as being made up of moving rope, or rope like energy, or a living celtic knot face, and I was simply looking at it and it was looking at me (although again, it only had black holes where the eyes and mouth and nose would be) and it seemed neutral, slightly positive but basically neutral, and I was feeling Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you for letting me experience this for 5 minutes and then letting me go back to my family. And it was just neutrally observing me the whole time and it seemed to be simply observing that this human soul (me) sure is feeling a lot of Thanks.

And for 5 minutes I stared at this face to my right while saying thank you again and again and it simply watched me, it understood what I was feeling, it seemed to be responding “Yes”, and after 5 minutes (it didn't feel like anymore than that, it really did feel like simply 5 minutes) it started to fade away as my room started to fade into view. Instead of seeing the green face I started seeing whatever was actually in that spot (which happens to have been a alter about 1 meter wide and 1.5 meters wide, so perhaps when I was seeing the green face in that spot I was actually seeing the spirit associated with that alter.

(The alter is used by the people where I live to pray for their ancestors to be satisfied, it's a ceremony which they do, they say they don't really believe in it, but just for good luck, they leave fresh water in the alter each day and light incense for a few minutes daily while praying for about 30 seconds each day for the spirits of their deceased ancestors to be happy so that the alive members of the family will have good luck. So, perhaps the spirit I saw right at that spot was somehow related to that alter, perhaps such rituals of intention attracted that spirit to that spot, I don't know.)

So anyway, I gradually, slowly, started to notice my room slowly fading back into view, and this made me very happy, since this meant I was coming back, and as the usual room images became more and more visible I continued feeling "Thank you" "Thank you" "Thank you" and my mouth started to be able to speak the words with less garbling, which again made me very happy, I started saying, "And I'm back. "And thank you. "And I'm back." "You let me go in." "And you let me come back." "Thank you." "Thank you." "Thank you." And now I knew I would be able to speak with my children and my wife again, I was back.

After a few more minutes of staring at the alter, the only open eye visuals remaining at this point was merely a 5% overlay of slight fractals, so I decided I was feeling able to try to walk to the next room where my family were sleeping.

I was able to stand, I was able to walk, and I entered the bedroom and laid down next to my oldest child, and looked at his face, still saying thank you thank you thank you, and I looked at my other children and my wife, continually saying thank you, and my wife woke from her slumber just enough to say "shush" so she can continue sleeping, to which I replied "Yes. Thank you. I love you. Thank you. Yes. I will be quiet now. I just want you to know, I choose you, my family. I need nothing else. I choose here. This is all I need. I need nothing else. Thank you. OK. Good night. I love you." And I stopped talking out loud, but continued whispering to the universe "Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for letting me come back to my family."

After 15 minutes of laying down and whispering like that, the universe told me to get up and get rid of everything related to "Deep Meditation Therapy", for safety. It seemed the universe was telling me that there was a chance that my home was going to be checked by some authority. So I listened to the universe, I stood up again and came back to the room where I had had the experience. I thankfully bowed to the west, I thankfully bowed to the north, I thankfully bowed to the east, I thankfully bowed to the south. I thankfully bowed to the above. I thankfully bowed to the below. I thankfully bowed to inside myself. I totally felt, from the moment the carrier wave sound came, throughout the trip, and after it, totally thankful, thankful thankful.

I did exactly as the universe suggested, knowing full well that the most nexus folks would consider this action "wasteful" and "sacrilegious", I took all the spice I had left, and all the MHRB I had left, and all the naphtha, and I flushed it all down the toilet. I got rid of everything. I wrapped the glass pipe in a t-shirt and went outside into the night and placed it on the ground and lightly tapped it with a hammer until it completely became just glass powder wrapped in cloth. I wrapped the pots I had used for this project in old towels and threw them into garbage bags. I made my room clean enough to pass any kind of inspection from any authorities.

The universe said good, I said good, and I thankfully went to sleep.

That night, I had an interesting dream. In the first one, I was at a store when the shop owner announced, "I am going to kill you, is that OK?" I said no, and I walked out into the street. Then an old Japanese friend came up to me with a samurai sword, and said, "If you would like, I will kill you. I will chop your head off. Do you agree?" and again I replied no, I don't agree, and walked away.

In the morning, I awoke and thought about that dream. It seems to me that that the universe was asking if I want my EGO to be killed, not my body, not my soul, my EGO. The universe was basically telling me, through my dream, that if I wanted to walk down this spiritual path, I would have to allow my EGO to die, and it was asking me if I agree to that, and it seems that my answer at that stage was no.

Well, there we have it, that was 7 months ago, I haven't broken through since. But over these 7 months I have decided that I would like to try again, this time I will get a scale and start with a very small measured dose (like 0.02g) and slowly work my way up to from sub-breakthrough to breakthrough, to find the right amount. I would like my next time to be in my greenhouse, sitting between my 2 acacia confusa plants, to see if the spirits in that location are different.

I think that now that I know one really does come back, I feel confident to tune into that higher frequency again.

PS - The summary above was written 7 months ago, I finally decided to share it now. After 7 months of thinking about my experience, my thoughts about the "spirits" I saw are slightly different. Here is what I think about the big question of whether we are seeing "real" entities or whether we are creating "fake" entities with our minds, I think my conclusion will surprise the Nexus community:

In my experience, in my opinion, imbibing the DMT molecule allows one to be aware of actual spirits, which exist at a much higher frequency, without bodies, basically plain orbs of energy, yet at the same time, (here comes the surprising qualification which unites the spiritualists with the materialists) one's brain then OVERLAYS images ONTO the plain spirits based on our conscious and unconscious memories, ideas, fears and hopes. Thus, when the materialists say "you're creating what you see", they are absolutely right, and when the spiritualists say "you're seeing real spirits" they are also absolutely right, the truth is a synergistic blend of those two statements: you're tuning into the vibrational frequency of real spirits yet your mind is dressing these real spirits with fake coverings. The body SHAPE and COLOR and TEXTURE of the entities you see are painted by YOU, but behind all of this process of painting by you, at the root of this process, there ARE actually packets of external energy (spirits) that are hanging out near you that DMT allows you to become aware of. Again, to summarize, YOU'RE painting the spirits with your mind, but underneath all that creative painting, there ARE actual spirits floating around. Both parties of the debate are right, and have been the whole time. It's not "A or B". It's "A and B". Well, I hope that this message of uniting is understood, because as it happens, it's not just beautiful, I think it is actually true. Real Spirits, exquisitely clothed in our surprisingly creative mental projections.
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Ya said:
I even think this idea would also explain why Dreams are so different from Hyperspace, while it explains the foundation linking the two.
Imagine that your mind (collection of ideas, memories, etc.) does the painting overlay, but that under the overlay, is an energy reality.
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gibran2 said:
Regarding your conclusion:

I’ve stated that same conclusion repeatedly, as have others. Maybe not as explicitly, but I think it’s a common, natural, intuitive conclusion.

I like the analogy comparing the brain and “hyperspace signals” to a television and TV signals. If we extend this analogy to your conclusion, then we could conclude that how a television displays an image depends on the television: an old black-and-white TV will display a low-resolution black-and-white image. An HD TV will display a high-resolution full-color image. The various TVs don’t change the signal, but rather interpret the signal differently, resulting in different renderings of the image.

Your conclusion seems very reasonable, especially since we encounter this phenomenon all the time via our senses: Our senses don’t “read” the environment in a direct way, but rather our brain interprets signals to provide us with a subjective picture of the world.

For example, with our eyes and their lenses we perceive more distant objects as being smaller, when in fact the size of objects does not change with distance. We sense smells with our olfactory apparatus, yet “smell” is an abstraction created by our brains. Things don’t actually have smells – different molecules have different shapes, different functional groups and projections, different patterns of electron tunneling, etc. and our brain examines these characteristics and creates something we call smell.

Color is another abstraction created by the brain. So is taste. Emotions are pure abstractions. Etc.

So if our everyday perception is an abstraction or interpretation of the interaction of our senses and the environment, then it seems reasonable that the same would be true of hyperspace, but to an even greater degree perhaps.

Let’s imagine that hyperspace is “real”, but that it isn’t a material, physical “place” in the way that our physical universe is. Then how would we go about sensing it? We really don’t have the sensory apparatus to sense it in a more “direct” way, so our minds must “abstract” the signals. What we end up with is, as you suggest, the brain’s interpretation of signals originating from outside of the brain.

As I said, this is a reasonable conclusion, since our perception of everyday reality is essentially the same thing.
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Ya said:
House talked about seeing scaffolding, yet I hadn't noticed anyone saying "spirits are plain energy packets which we 'dress up'."
I currently think that on DMT some mental filters are temporarily removed, allowing us to see faster-vibrating-energy-collections,
( "spirits" ) which we paint over, specifically with the degree of abstractness being relative to the degree of unconsciousness.
Click to expand...

Ya said:
"A and B" (Real AND Painted)
Click to expand...

Ya said:
We tune into a real dimension, AND, we paint that dimension.
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ragabr said:
Regarding tuning into a real dimension, I'm in agreement with Gibran2 that some experiences are obviously externalizations of internal states. Do we consider that tuning into a real dimension of energetic processes in my body mind, and them being painted with metaphorical imagery?

Other experiences feel completely real, but speaking of them as occurring in a particular place doesn't feel like it makes any sense. It's almost like the content is always going on everywhere, if that makes any sense.

Another class of experiences that feel completely real that SWIM has sporadically, she breaks through into another body, floating in a tank of liquid with connections all over her. Like Neo waking up to his tank in The Matrix or the Hybrids from Battlestar Galactica. Sometimes she's alone, sometimes a bunch of familiar faces are encouraging her to go back in, things were getting better and better and they want to see the end.

Her primary issue with taking every DMT breakthrough as tuning into a real dimension, is that many are mutually contradictory. For one to be really real, other's have to be really false. Then we're left wondering how to distinguish.
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Ya said:
I think that somehow the "BOTH" idea can explain that the seemingly contradictory differences between trips are in fact non-contradictory. I'll see if I can come up with a better way of explaining exactly how, but basically I think the jist of it will be: if one unconsciously mentally "dresses up a plain canvas spirit" in body style A today, and then one unconsciously mentally "dresses up a plain canvas spirit" in body style B tomorrow, the differences between the body styles seen at different times are not contradictory if the body-less spirits were all plain canvases in the first place.

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I feel that this would even explain how the dream-world and the hyperspace-world and the between-births-world are all are actually blank canvases with real spirits floating around that we paint upon.

Recently, I happened to see a movie that illustrated beautifully this concept, I highly recommend it, it is totally on-topic: "What Dreams May Come". Please watch it and let me know if this idea solves the "differences" issue you're thoughtfully bringing up.
Click to expand...

I think we can ALL agree on the fact that what Gibran2 and Ragabr wrote above are both very interesting thought-provoking posts, and hope to see more such ideas being shared here. :)
 
I feel the need to say this:

I agree with 'Ya' that a breakthrough is just that- breaking through into another 'realm' or whatever you wish to say. Which is having no difference between CEVs or OEVs.


I never truly agreed with the Nexus "slang" (or where ever it comes from) with the term 'breakthrough', as most people who explain them (or try to) basically explain an out of body experience in hyperspace.

I have been fully immersed in a world of "The background walls were "set", unmoving, with one standard pattern (as if the walls were totally inlaid with point-cut diamonds with 4 colors in each diamond.)" And to me, this is a breakthrough. This is breaking through the ayers of 'natural reality', or whatever you want to call it.

I have never had a "true-breakthrough" as some would call it, although I call it a 'true out-of-body experience in hyperspace'.

I have been unaware of my body whilst peering into these diamond-like walls, unaware of my eyes being open or closed, even unaware of my breathing.... Although I was grounded by a friend who kept reminding me to breathe... I was not aware of myself doing it, did not even have the normal 'clear-headedness' like I normally do.

I don't care what others believe is a 'true-breakthrough' as I feel the term as is known here is wrong. I believe there is more than just Sub or True breakthroughs, and I think we could come up with something new.


At the topic at hand: I like the way you write Ya, you definitely get your point across and your meaning is not lost at all. Thanks for this report.

I do agree with the 'A and B' in a sense, but as I feel there is only so much I could say about it, which has already been said (Thanks Gibran2).
I also can understand your theory of 'painting pictures on an always brand new canvas' (I say always brand new to define the spice journeys, as during each journey that I have taken never 'changed' from the canvas which I already painted on) if that makes sense?
I also agree that through the use of DMT we 'tune in' to higher/lower frequencies for the time being, or that through the use of DMT maybe gives our brain the ability to slow these 'frequencies' enough so that we can perceive them... I'm not sure as I've never really thought about it, but I will bring it into my mind now and return sometime in the future with my response to it.

I will comment with my own findings though (if you do not mind):

This is not 'breakthrough' or 'sub-breakthrough'... this is just me "experimenting' with my spice....

Ever since my breakthrough (with the diamonds) I noticed that when I partake in the meditation events, that my eyes just naturally close... I don't close them intentionally, they just seem to close on their own, almost like I have heavy eye lids which have no weight? Anyways, on this particular event, I smoked the spice whilst making sure I kept my eyes open... I guess what I saw could be explained as "stationary/moving thick/thin 'strands' of a shiny invisible 'material'" which differs extremely from my normal CEVs... I was pondering on it for awhile, and as of yet have come up with the conclusion that what we see through our eyes is not '3D'. We perceive it as such (probably something to do with the way our brains measure depth or something) but actually it is as if we are staring at a television. The screen is flat, and shows 3D images (I don't know how to really explain it, I'm not the best with words).
There is actually no "space", as we only see what light effects or bounces off of... and in this 'space' are actually other 'entities' or whatever name you wish to put to them, and the reason we cannot 'see' them is because light doesn't effect them...

This is as far as I've gotten at this point in time, and I'm still pondering on it... so other viable input is appreciated.

Again, thanks for sharing your experiences with us and I can't wait to hear more/talk to you in the future.
 
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