Switzerland bans 52 substances (incl. MXE)

[Shaolin]

So you are blaming the drug because YOU were irresponsible with the dosage AND food handling ?

I think you all seem to forgot what prohibition did for drug quality. It's way lower, possible tainted with dangerous cuts and moar expensive. I don't see the positive here and like one poster said, bans should be based on science and not fear.

Ummm if you are really defending JWH then be my guest, but It is pretty obvious that that stuff is really terrible for you. In my defense it was the first time doing it and it definitely was my last. My friend convinced me to do it because he told me it was a "hallucinogen" and i thought what was the worst thing that could happen, which is stupid i know and i should have researched it before doing it and it's the last time I take drugs that that friend gives me. And it wasn't the dose that got us, it was my friends "genius" idea to smoalk it in the tent which got hotboxed and that is what caused us to OD because we were inhaling all the exhaled smoke, besides the fact that the LD50 is extremely low for JWH and its really easy to OD on. And just for the record I think it was expired chili that got us and not the cooking method, because we cooked it for a while, but it could have just been the OD that made us throw up for that long, who knows. I'm not saying that all drugs should be banned (obviously), that would be silly. But honestly I say good riddance to JWH, that stuff is no good for anyone, unless you like ODing and brain damage that is. I think there is plenty of scientific reasons why JWH should be banned, it might as well be substance D.

I think your experience tells moar about you than it does about the drug itself thus banning it on such ground would be silly in my opinion since I'm sure we can find ex-users of LSD/MDMA/DMT/etc who think their former drug choice should remain illegal. It's not about the JWH per se, it's about the approach we take when dealing with this questions.

 

[Psychonaut In Orbit]

I understand what you are saying but people try to pass off "JWH" as a cannabis substitute and it's NOT. The only reason why I even tried it those two times was because it was being branded as a "marijuana substitute". This not only gives mj a bad name but it's also bad business. That's the real problem with it. Some young kid who is scared of getting drug tested goes to get some or gets someone to get some "JWH" for him and he tries it and has some extreme adverse reactions to it. The research is where it's at... and JWH is in it's infancy when it comes to "research" therefore it's full range of side effects are not known to the general public (they just hear "that's that fake weed.. can't hurt to smoke a pound of this in one night and next thing you know someone is waking up in the hospital).. which means we are lab rats... we are the experiment... and that's sad.

 

[SHroomtroll]

True indeed PrimateSphinx. I've tried JWH two times and I didn't like it AT ALL. I've been an avid cannabis smoker for 14+ years and in my opinion JWH is NOT a substitute. The first time I tried I only got around 5-6 puffs from a joint... I admit the effects were "weed-like" but there was definitely a difference though. I had a slight buzz for 15 minutes then a MASSIVE headache for a couple of hours. I guess I didn't learn my lesson the first time so the second time REALLY did it for me. I had a joint to myself and I smoked it all in one go....by the end of the joint I was feeling very faint, light-headed, pressure was building up in my head, my ear drums popped a few times... etc. I could hear and feel my heart beating and it felt as though it was beating outta my chest. I was sweating profusely, and a few times my vision got blurry... so I'm guessing this stuff affected my blood pressure in an extreme way.... I WILL NEVER TOUCH THIS STUFF AGAIN... aint nothin like the real thing. If someone gave me 20 pounds of it I would flush it down the toilet immediately! :evil:

To be fair to the jwh´s there are alot of them and they are very different in effects.

Also it sounds like you smoked way to much of whatever kind you tried.



Ive tried jwh 210 and 122 and they were nothing alike, 210 gave me extreme paranoia but mellowed out to a nice sativa like high(i overdosed)

whereas 122 gave me a heavy bodystone comparable to a indica strain.


Of course i prefer cannabis but i don´t like to compare natural substances to man made drugs.

 

[Psychonaut In Orbit]

To be fair to the jwh´s there are alot of them and they are very different in effects.

Also it sounds like you smoked way to much of whatever kind you tried.



Ive tried jwh 210 and 122 and they were nothing alike, 210 gave me extreme paranoia but mellowed out to a nice sativa like high(i overdosed)

whereas 122 gave me a heavy bodystone comparable to a indica strain.


Of course i prefer cannabis but i don´t like to compare natural substances to man made drugs.

This.... I totally agree but when "JWH" hit the market it was (and still is) being dubbed as a cannabis alternative... I don't think that is fair at all to cannabis. Even the inventor of JWH, John William Huffman, said "It's like playing russian roulette because we don’t have toxicity data, we don’t know the metabolites, and we don’t know the pharmacokinetics".

Link to quote

 

[Shaolin]

Psychonaut In Orbit, I agree that the legal status of the new substances is/can be heavily abused by dishonest salesman.

 

[deadlight]

Shaolin, i wouldnt have said the same about lsd, because i would have seen the beautiful culture it was helping to inspire, and having seen so much good, i would have been willing to risk unseen side effects in the future

I think i would have said the same thing about mdma though. I dont think i would have been too wrong eithor

 

[PrimateSphinx]

I think your experience tells moar about you than it does about the drug itself thus banning it on such ground would be silly in my opinion since I'm sure we can find ex-users of LSD/MDMA/DMT/etc who think their former drug choice should remain illegal. It's not about the JWH per se, it's about the approach we take when dealing with this questions.

I guess I should clarify, I don't necessarily think banning is the way to go but I would definitely say that having chemicals that we know virtually nothing about in head shops is irresponsible and dangerous. Maybe if studies were done that showed that RCs like JWH were somehow beneficial or harmless than i would say it would be ok but until that day comes i think pushing these things in head shops is extremely dangerous, because for all we know JWH could be arsenic. I guess I'm just not a fan of the "hey lets see what this drug does" approach unless you are getting some scientific data out of it. I would just prefer stuff like that not be widely available to the public until we know more about it because as you know people (myself included) do stupid things and hurt themselves.

 

[Spanishfly]

Whenever one of these bans come about, I imagine it happens something like "Sir! There's a buch of new chemicals for sale and people are enjoying them!" "BAN IT! BAN IT IMMEDIATLY!"

Does BANNING anything ever really work?

 

[littledante420]

Whenever one of these bans come about, I imagine it happens something like "Sir! There's a buch of new chemicals for sale and people are enjoying them!" "BAN IT! BAN IT IMMEDIATLY!"

Does BANNING anything ever really work?

does putting a bunch of traffic cones in front of a liquors store keep people from buying booze?

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Somehow, I find it hard to believe that people here would really support any kind of drug prohibition.

Obviously there are plenty of shyte drugs that people should simply not do... but prohibition is not the way to get people to not use a drug. Education and the availability of better alternatives is the only real method.

The idea that some small group of unelected people can just decide what chemicals you can and can not possess is abhorent. If a large majority of the population decides that something is so terrible it needs to be controlled... fine, I guess. But this arbitrary, unilateral big brother shit should not be applauded.

(no matter what you think of MXE or JWH)

 

[Psychonaut In Orbit]

Somehow, I find it hard to believe that people here would really support any kind of drug prohibition.

Obviously there are plenty of shyte drugs that people should simply not do... but prohibition is not the way to get people to not use a drug. Education and the availability of better alternatives is the only real method.

The idea that some small group of unelected people can just decide what chemicals you can and can not possess is abhorent. If a large majority of the population decides that something is so terrible it needs to be controlled... fine, I guess. But this arbitrary, unilateral big brother shit should not be applauded.

(no matter what you think of MXE or JWH)

I have to agree with you 100% (even with my stance on JWH). I think we as a collective should be able to decide what we put in our bodies... instead of a panel of "know it alls" but with the way things are going in the states right now I don't see that open "freedom of choice" happening any time soon.

 

[littledante420]

I think that the intent behind these bans are actually genuine. The people who make these laws probably think that these things are extremely dangerous chemicals being sold to kids. This is evident after reading mostly all of the RC news articles that depict hospital visits by kids who were looking for a "legal high." What law officials probably don't realize is the fact that by continually banning these chemicals they are actually exposing the public to an even more dangerous situation. Not only will chemicals that have been known to be safe be off the market but they are forcing brand new, untested, chemicals onto the market. Deaths from RC's will be inevitable if this method of action is continued. IMHO I think the appropriate mode of action for this kind of thing would be to lift the ban on drugs known to be safe and offer more harm reduction programs for the public. Personally I think it is disgusting how these countries violate our own personal freedoms, punish people for victimless crimes and, in the long run, put people in a greater danger then they already were.

 

[arcanum]

I am not a supporter of the " Big brother knows best" governement mind control Gestapo. ( with all the associated conspiracy theories) However, one has to consider the fact that some extremeley powerfull and nefariuous chemicals are being manufactured and distributed by some "nebulous" labs. and online vendors to anyone with a credit card, or ability to send a Western Union check. How many under age kids could manage to do this? Would you want your kids taking this stuff? Over and above the age aspect one could also ask the following questions:

Risk-benefit ratio, for virtualy untested substances cannot be quantified in a rational way.
A tweaked molecule of a previously banned substance, may have more sinister side effects than the original. ( ie. neurotoxicity. carginogenic)
The consumer is always "left carrying the bag" so to speak, as all online vendours specificaly state that their products are not for human consumption.

Look carefully at the wording and grammar displayed on thier websites, would you buy a second hand car from them?

It's logical that a minority of intelligent and informed individuals would express indignation at state decreed mind control. However in the case of RC's it's the one rare occasion that I could
actually applaud such legislation. Governement never was or will be the potentiators of free spirits and minds , rather the marshals and protectors of the dumb masses and their offspring. ( the reasons for their concern
are open for debate, but that's a political debate nevetheless)

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

How many under age kids could manage to do this? Would you want your kids taking this stuff?

*****

Look carefully at the wording and grammar displayed on thier websites, would you buy a second hand car from them?

It's logical that a minority of intelligent and informed individuals would express indignation at state decreed mind control. However in the case of RC's it's the one rare occasion that I could
actually applaud such legislation. Governement never was or will be the potentiators of free spirits and minds , rather the marshals and protectors of the dumb masses and their offspring. ( the reasons for their concern
are open for debate, but that's a political debate nevetheless)

I understand where you are coming from, but the "kids" argument always irks me.

There are tons of legal things that I wouldn't want kids taking (huffing gasoline makes all the RCs look like chewable vitamins, but no one will ever ban gas... not even for minors).

So, it is on the parents to keep their kids from sniffing glue and inhaling octane booster. The government can not protect stupid people from their idiocy... nor should they. And, they certainly should not prohibit free adults from enjoying risky behavior simply because someone's belligerent and self destructive teen might hurt themselves.

You wanna keep kids from hurting themselves? Put them in suspended animation until they are 30.

More teens are hurt by skateboards than drugs. A teen looking to get high will find something. They will get into your xanax stash, or the pain killers their buddies father got prescribed when he threw out his back. They will OD on nutmeg, or go fuck around with the local bellflowers. I'd rather kids had easy access to weed personally.

At any rate, MXE is way better than sitting around sniffing random paint thinners and markers that they can get for free in school.

 

[PrimateSphinx]

At any rate, MXE is way better than sitting around sniffing random paint thinners and markers that they can get for free in school.

This is true HF. I don't think anyone here is saying that governments should be the supreme rulers of what drugs are legal and what ones aren't. I think we would all like to see a day where research outweighs fear when it comes to these things. But that day is yet to come and until that day does come I think that RCs like this should not necessarily be banned as they should be put out of public reach, because it's fairly obvious that people are hurting themselves with a lot of these RCs such as the Amphetamine bath salts and so on. Obviously research and education is the way to go when it comes to drugs especially RCs but being that this research and education is virtually nonexistent I think that people should probably stay away from these things until more information is put out about them. Obviously people are going to continue doing them so the best thing I think that can be done is to make them less accessible.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Obviously people are going to continue doing them so the best thing I think that can be done is to make them less accessible.

You mean like the massively hallucinogenic deleriant carcinogen brain killer we call gasoline? Which can be purchased without question by a ten year old with no driver's license and a gas can on their way home from school?

 

[PrimateSphinx]

Obviously people are going to continue doing them so the best thing I think that can be done is to make them less accessible.

You mean like the massively hallucinogenic deleriant carcinogen brain killer we call gasoline? Which can be purchased without question by a ten year old with no driver's license and a gas can on their way home from school?

that's a different ballgame HF, I was more referring to RCs. I really don't know what you can do to get people to stop huffing chemicals. But i wouldn't even call those drugs, it's just killing brain cells. I mean even human feces can be turned into a huffable substance that kills brain cells, its called Jankem. What are they gonna do ban gasoline? which I would be all for but it's not realistic. But we all know that Laquerhead has but one desire, Laquerhead sets his skull on fire. Laquerhead knows no in betweens, huffin' on bags of gasoline.

 

[arcanum]

I understand where you are coming from, but the "kids" argument always irks me.

There are tons of legal things that I wouldn't want kids taking (huffing gasoline makes all the RCs look like chewable vitamins, but no one will ever ban gas... not even for minors).

So, it is on the parents to keep their kids from sniffing glue and inhaling octane booster. The government can not protect stupid people from their idiocy... nor should they. And, they certainly should not prohibit free adults from enjoying risky behavior simply because someone's belligerent and self destructive teen might hurt themselves.

You wanna keep kids from hurting themselves? Put them in suspended animation until they are 30.

More teens are hurt by skateboards than drugs. A teen looking to get high will find something. They will get into your xanax stash, or the pain killers their buddies father got prescribed when he threw out his back. They will OD on nutmeg, or go fuck around with the local bellflowers. I'd rather kids had easy access to weed personally.

At any rate, MXE is way better than sitting around sniffing random paint thinners and markers that they can get for free in school.

This is a somewhat jaded view of children and adolescents, hardly justification for defence of an adults right to choose.

I am blessed with having two children, they are highly inteligent, speak several foreign launguages, their prospects are bright despite these difficult economic times.
I'm sure the've tried weed, got drunk occasionaly, smoked a few cigarettes, that's just part and parcel of growing up. No big deal. The thought that some grey-market lab./ vendour entity could legaly supply anybodys kids with RC's, annoys me, as not all families are well educated, or have such favourable prospects.

Your faith in a particular type of RC, cannot be fully justified, as one really doesn't know for sure what one is getting. A white crystaline powder in a foil pack, with a label and "not for human consumption" warning on it are hardly reasuring.

I'm actually quite suprised at your views Hyperspace Fool, they appear at odds with that of a "Mystic"

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

I disagree. I think that RC's can be dangerous, but no more dangerous than what you already have laying around your house.

If you knew how many things within 100m of your children's bedrooms could be used as a drug... you might lose a lot of sleep.

My point vis a vis the omnipresent "kids" argument is that it is not our responsibility to legislate to the lowest common denominator. We can not sacrifice freedom in the hopes that we might save some low functioning kids whose parents have neglected to teach them about the world.

Mystics have never been in favor of the state telling people what they can and can not do. Mysticism is about a direct experience of the divine or otherworldly... and mystics have typically been on the banned end of that awful stick called prohibition. China has banned the practice of a certain kind of Chi Kung called Fallun Gong. Qabbalah has frequently been banned.

I am more surprised that someone who enjoys entheogens would support increasing the ridiculous war on drugs.

You guys are free to disagree. But when I see datura plants as ornamentals at the White House, and children being prescribed ritalin... when I see ghetto kids huffing tube socks dipped in gasoline... I can't say that MXE (with its extremely limited record of injury outside of purposeful overdose) is much of a threat to your kids. I have my concerns about Chinese lab chems. I just feel that more laws restricting our freedoms is not the answer. MXE has been mostly beneficial for the vast number of people I know who have tried it.

And even if it was, actually a threat to your kids... so? This line of reasoning could be used to ban surfing, sky diving, snowboarding, or a million other things. Alcohol messes up more kids than all illegal drugs, RCs and plant drugs combined. By a factor of 20x. Does that mean that we should ban adult use of beer because your kids are gonna be able to pimp some Boone's Farm Stawberry Wine and play drinking games? Don't you see how ridiculous this suggestion seems?

Fact is, if your kids are savvy enough to find out what MXE is and successfully order it to your house or a PO Box without you catching on... then they can probably get their hands on something else as well. Like maybe the even less safe drugs that will surely replace it online once fear mongers get it banned. At the very least, they will be able to waltz down to a supermarket and buy themselves a bottle of DXM based cough syrup for a couple bucks... no ID needed.

You don't want your kids doing RCs? Awesome, you are a good parent... teach your children well (in the words of CSN).

But please don't ask me or anyone else to make more sacrifices to help assuage your fears about what your kids or others might be getting up to. If you give your kids a credit card and they order something online, it is up to you to control that. They could just as easily be on craig's list ordering up prostitutes.

Peace y'all.
HF


Oh, and to PS... if you are not willing to ban gasoline, which make no mistake is a psychoactive drug bar none... then your stance on other drugs is baseless. Hemp can also be used to fuel cars and run generators...

 

[Mindlusion]

I just love seeing people fiend for chemicals that get shipped out of chinese labs that have really no research done on them in regards to safety. Waiting for their mail in anxiety. Waking up and snorting MXE just to get through their day. Plugging them straight out of the bag. Dosing and then rambling complete nonsense into the chat.

It's just so beautiful! (Sorry I am so biased I think it's a pathetic drug. Blows my mind that people blindly trust these things.)

I also love how people get their panties in a bunch when I speak against it. Forgive me, I'll step out now.

For some insane reason.. I think this was directed at me... :lol:

I'm not going to argue, though house is very obviously exaggerating.

I happen to enjoy dissociatives, and it just so happens that the ones I like to enjoy do not naturally occur in plants or animals. So I think certain RCs are fantastic because it allows me access to these fascinating compounds.

Others may not find them so fascinating, but that's no reason to bash them based on their experiences and the ones of others.
I have no problem consuming something I have tested to have a high purity, though i don't have a HPLC, TLC and melting point tests, along with specs from the supplier, is sufficient evidence for me. We all take risks consuming any substances (like ibogaine disrupting heart rhythms of healthy individuals) I dont mind taking the risk based on thousands of others experiences, just like many of you here.

Each to his own.