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Tetrahydroharmine (THH) and DMT taken orally
- Thread starter 69ron
- Start date
'Coatl
Teotzlcoatl
I just think it's the god chemical... lol... it almost seems to complicated to understand... but DMT and THH were meant to go together.
Do you think I could take 200mg THH + Psychotria tea?
I really don't think mixing theobromine with an MAOI (like Caapi) is a good idea.
But I'd like to see what pure theobromine or chocomine would do with DMT.
Hmm... Chocomine + Theobromine + DMT?
Do you think I could take 200mg THH + Psychotria tea?
I really don't think mixing theobromine with an MAOI (like Caapi) is a good idea.
But I'd like to see what pure theobromine or chocomine would do with DMT.
Hmm... Chocomine + Theobromine + DMT?
69ron
Rising Star
[quote='Coatl]I just think it's the god chemical... lol... it almost seems to complicated to understand... but DMT and THH were meant to go together.[/quote]
“GOD CHEMICAL”...hmmmm...I do believe that DMT and THH were meant to go together. They are extremely powerful taken together. I believe this is the combination allowing telepathy to occur. SWIM experienced it in his last trip (among many other newly experienced things). The harmine in caapi seems to distract one a bit. Without the harmine, the experience is much more powerful on many levels. SWIM’s mind felt far more powerful than it ever has before. He felt like he had boundless thought energy. He also had a super amount of physical energy. With harmine in the mix, it’s like you’re cut off somehow and not fully charged with energy. The harmine makes the experience more dreamy, more distant. If takes some of your mental powers away. THH doesn’t do that. THH leaves you in the driver's seat with complete control. It's incredible.
The last time SWIM took THH with DMT he was confronted by the spirit of an ancient shaman who was very powerful. It gives me chills to think about it. The shaman was trying really hard to teach SWIM how to do something to change the world. SWIM doesn’t recall what it was. It seemed to be of very great importance. SWIM is normally very strong in the spirit world, but that shaman was more powerful than SWIM.
The shaman broke open SWIM’s skull and caused energy to be released into the universe. His skull was cracked open, he was on the floor, his brain was visible, with light shooting out of it. The light was creating something in the universe. It wasn’t painful or anything but SWIM did not like it. SWIM got nervous about it and didn’t feel so comfortable being with someone that powerful and immediately stopped the vision.
Now that SWIM thinks about it, he should have tried to get the shaman to explain in more detail what he was doing exactly. The shaman did not seem to be trying to harm SWIM in any way. He seemed to be trying to teach SWIM something. SWIM recalls very clearly the moment in the vision where his brain was exposed and energy was flowing out of it. It was creating something, but SWIM didn’t wait to see the outcome. Now he’s sorry he didn’t wait to see the outcome.
Do you have any idea what that vision means?
[quote='Coatl]Do you think I could take 200mg THH + Psychotria tea?[/quote]
200 mg THH + psychotria tea will definitely work.
[quote='Coatl]I really don't think mixing theobromine with an MAOI (like Caapi) is a good idea.
But I'd like to see what pure theobromine or chocomine would do with DMT.
Hmm... Chocomine + Theobromine + DMT?[/quote]
Dagger is saying that people are using it with ayahuasca in the form of cocoa. I never heard of people using it with ayahuasca before. That’s new to me, but I know about it being used with mushrooms, and others.
Theobromine is less toxic than caffeine. The oral LD50 in rats is 1265 mg/kg for theobromine and 192 mg/kg for caffeine. Theobromine 6.58 times less toxic than caffeine.
I don’t really see why it would be dangerous to use with ayahuasca. Natives often add caffeine containing plants to ayahuasca without any problems. Also harmine, and THH are not full MAOI compounds. They are only RIMAs and are very short acting compared to the others out there. At most they will make the theobromine a little stronger.
“GOD CHEMICAL”...hmmmm...I do believe that DMT and THH were meant to go together. They are extremely powerful taken together. I believe this is the combination allowing telepathy to occur. SWIM experienced it in his last trip (among many other newly experienced things). The harmine in caapi seems to distract one a bit. Without the harmine, the experience is much more powerful on many levels. SWIM’s mind felt far more powerful than it ever has before. He felt like he had boundless thought energy. He also had a super amount of physical energy. With harmine in the mix, it’s like you’re cut off somehow and not fully charged with energy. The harmine makes the experience more dreamy, more distant. If takes some of your mental powers away. THH doesn’t do that. THH leaves you in the driver's seat with complete control. It's incredible.
The last time SWIM took THH with DMT he was confronted by the spirit of an ancient shaman who was very powerful. It gives me chills to think about it. The shaman was trying really hard to teach SWIM how to do something to change the world. SWIM doesn’t recall what it was. It seemed to be of very great importance. SWIM is normally very strong in the spirit world, but that shaman was more powerful than SWIM.
The shaman broke open SWIM’s skull and caused energy to be released into the universe. His skull was cracked open, he was on the floor, his brain was visible, with light shooting out of it. The light was creating something in the universe. It wasn’t painful or anything but SWIM did not like it. SWIM got nervous about it and didn’t feel so comfortable being with someone that powerful and immediately stopped the vision.
Now that SWIM thinks about it, he should have tried to get the shaman to explain in more detail what he was doing exactly. The shaman did not seem to be trying to harm SWIM in any way. He seemed to be trying to teach SWIM something. SWIM recalls very clearly the moment in the vision where his brain was exposed and energy was flowing out of it. It was creating something, but SWIM didn’t wait to see the outcome. Now he’s sorry he didn’t wait to see the outcome.
Do you have any idea what that vision means?
[quote='Coatl]Do you think I could take 200mg THH + Psychotria tea?[/quote]
200 mg THH + psychotria tea will definitely work.
[quote='Coatl]I really don't think mixing theobromine with an MAOI (like Caapi) is a good idea.
But I'd like to see what pure theobromine or chocomine would do with DMT.
Hmm... Chocomine + Theobromine + DMT?[/quote]
Dagger is saying that people are using it with ayahuasca in the form of cocoa. I never heard of people using it with ayahuasca before. That’s new to me, but I know about it being used with mushrooms, and others.
Theobromine is less toxic than caffeine. The oral LD50 in rats is 1265 mg/kg for theobromine and 192 mg/kg for caffeine. Theobromine 6.58 times less toxic than caffeine.
I don’t really see why it would be dangerous to use with ayahuasca. Natives often add caffeine containing plants to ayahuasca without any problems. Also harmine, and THH are not full MAOI compounds. They are only RIMAs and are very short acting compared to the others out there. At most they will make the theobromine a little stronger.
darkrituals
Rising Star
@ 69Ron check your PMs m8 sent you something that may be of interest.
69ron SWIM has had experiences where beings have implanted a new energy packet that was going to be used to change the world..it sounds a little similar but slightly less jarring than your SWIM's encounter with this shaman figure...i imagine the next time he returns you maybe able to finish what was started...but perhaps slightly less thh would be in order
SWIM is very very excited about this combo..especially with the cocao...imagine using 10-15mg of spice..with say 50-100mg of thh...and then some theobromine..this could become an extremely efficient way to consume pharmahuasca..or perhaps hydrospice
you know what i just realized...have any of you read D.M. Turners Psychedelic Guide? the part about the link between DMT and water spirits..
well isnt it interesting that its tetraHYDROharmine..
SWIM has ALWAYS felt a connection between dmt and water...usually when its raining he has his best most wonderful experiences..there is something about it..
perhaps this is why THH and DMT are perfect for each other
what i think needs to happen is..we need to figure out the most efficient way to use the THH...because it seems to be quite the little key and its not exactly easy to get..or as cheap as some other components..
so maybe we can figure out the minimum dosage for THH to make DMT active orally..and mess around with the dosages of both to get the perfect..most efficient use of both chemicals..and perhaps the theobromine might be just the thing to lower the DMT side of it anyway...not sure what it will do to the THH side..but this sure is interesting!
SWIM is very very excited about this combo..especially with the cocao...imagine using 10-15mg of spice..with say 50-100mg of thh...and then some theobromine..this could become an extremely efficient way to consume pharmahuasca..or perhaps hydrospice
you know what i just realized...have any of you read D.M. Turners Psychedelic Guide? the part about the link between DMT and water spirits..
well isnt it interesting that its tetraHYDROharmine..
SWIM has ALWAYS felt a connection between dmt and water...usually when its raining he has his best most wonderful experiences..there is something about it..
perhaps this is why THH and DMT are perfect for each other
what i think needs to happen is..we need to figure out the most efficient way to use the THH...because it seems to be quite the little key and its not exactly easy to get..or as cheap as some other components..
so maybe we can figure out the minimum dosage for THH to make DMT active orally..and mess around with the dosages of both to get the perfect..most efficient use of both chemicals..and perhaps the theobromine might be just the thing to lower the DMT side of it anyway...not sure what it will do to the THH side..but this sure is interesting!
I don't know about a little stronger. Seems 2 gram of raw criolla cacao gives a buzz, and not the caapi buzz. But for SWIM, if SWIM take it daily, SWIM quickly build a tolerance to it. Criollo cacao contains about as much caffeine as theobromine. Forastero cacao, which is the type most used in the world, contains almost exclusively theobromine, and 2-3 times as much as criollo.
If spice gets potentiated 5 times by 2 gram of raw cacao, it might be a good idea to start a little lower, perhaps 5 mg? Just to stay on the safe side.
I wonder, would theobromine potentiate smoked spice too, or does it only work orally, by increasing absorption?
Also would like to mention that caapi itself has been reported to have been potentiated by cacao. Potentiation was about 2x. SWIM has not personally experienced this potentiation, although SWIM has not worked with higher doses cacao.
Btw, be careful taking too much cacao in combination with caapi.
You can check out the The Caapi + Cacao Trials on the ayahuasca forum for some detailed experimentation with only caapi and cacao.
tryptographer
tryptamine photographer
Dagger said:
Great thread, important info!
Funny, in my last order of MHBR there was a little gift packet of raw organic criolla cacao included; best cacao I ever tasted, and it appears to be a superfood bursting with antioxidants, minerals and other goodies. But low theobromine content. Anyway, the marketing trick worked: I'm going to order some more
Ron69, your experiences with tetrahydroharmine and DMT are fascinating, I'm hoping for some more detailed reports
The obvious next step: a kitchen tek to separate harmine, harmaline and THH from Caapi. Column chromatography? Some searching to do, I bet it's in the archives.
It makes me think... if something ordinary like chocolate can have a large impact on the DMT experience, it's no wonder the effects can vary so wildly. Besides the psychological factors there are many random physical biochemical factors that determine where you 'end up'.
Hmm... dr. Strassman was incredibly meticulous in his DMT research, but did he screen his volunteers for their chocolate use? I mean: what if the guy that got anally raped by two crocodiles had a bar of chocolate half an hour before launch? There's just no way you can predict all biochemical interactions, we just ingest too much random stuff..
This is possible but SWIY would need quite a bit of bark to get this working properly. Plus experience with column chromatography is a must otherwise get ready to waste lots of plant material. But it is possible. Alumina columns might work better then silica although SWIM has never looked into this so all my advice is based on experience with other alkaloids and their isolation.
SWIM often has this trip that goes into showing SWIM whats wrong with the world and how SWIM can help. Its a continious journey though each trip explains more in very subtle ways. But all these things SWIM thinks about normally anyway its just during the trip its like SWIM not only thinks about the world and whats going on and what needs to be done but visualizes and experiences his thoughts. SWIM thinks that is part of the nature of the DMT experience, visualizing thoughts and ideas. SWIM was reading tons of news one day and then smoked some spice and his trip was totally involved with the news he had been reading.
All that means is there is an extra hydrogen where a double bond once was.
I think its less to do with water and more to do with what THH does in the brain. THH may have seretonin effecting activity on top of its MAOI effect. THH is also speculated as being the culprit in up-regulating the density of seretonin receptors in certain parts of the brain in regular ayahuasca users.
Anyway all this THH talk has convinced SWIM he needs to find some! haha.
SWIM's FOAF had dreams of separating tetrahydroharmine, harmine and harmaline. In theory it is fairly simple if one looks at their pKas and XlogPs.
PKa:
Harmine : 7.70
Harmaline: 9.80
THH : ????
XlogP
Harmine : 2.5
Harmaline: 0.8
THH : 2.376? 1.90? (most likely 1.90)
What that means is that freebases of harmine, harmaline and THH are fairly insoluble in aqueous solutions. Less so for harmaline (XlogP 0.8 ) but it's fine, a fair amount of it precipitates.
The pKas are the most important stuff. What they mean is that at a pH of just above 8 one would only see harmine precipitating. On a pH of say 11 harmaline will precipitate. SWIM's FOAF has done this experiment, even though it needs to be repeated correctly. And it does not even require a pH meter.
Dissolve the harmala alkaloid salts in water, then add sodium bicarbonate (brings pH to around 8.3-8.5 but no much higher) Harmine precipitates and is collected. Then boost the pH by adding sodium carbonate to ~12) and harmaline precipitates.
But if one is extracting from caapi, in which pH THH crashes out? the pKa of THH is unknown, if someone knows is or can roughly calculate it (some people own some THH) it would be a tremendously useful info.
SWIM's FOAF was thinking to do experiment with differential centrigugation when he has time, i.e. extract caapi, and increase pH by increments of 0.5 and see what crashes out at each step. Centrigugation is just to collect the precipitates much much faster.
PKa:
Harmine : 7.70
Harmaline: 9.80
THH : ????
XlogP
Harmine : 2.5
Harmaline: 0.8
THH : 2.376? 1.90? (most likely 1.90)
What that means is that freebases of harmine, harmaline and THH are fairly insoluble in aqueous solutions. Less so for harmaline (XlogP 0.8 ) but it's fine, a fair amount of it precipitates.
The pKas are the most important stuff. What they mean is that at a pH of just above 8 one would only see harmine precipitating. On a pH of say 11 harmaline will precipitate. SWIM's FOAF has done this experiment, even though it needs to be repeated correctly. And it does not even require a pH meter.
Dissolve the harmala alkaloid salts in water, then add sodium bicarbonate (brings pH to around 8.3-8.5 but no much higher) Harmine precipitates and is collected. Then boost the pH by adding sodium carbonate to ~12) and harmaline precipitates.
But if one is extracting from caapi, in which pH THH crashes out? the pKa of THH is unknown, if someone knows is or can roughly calculate it (some people own some THH) it would be a tremendously useful info.
SWIM's FOAF was thinking to do experiment with differential centrigugation when he has time, i.e. extract caapi, and increase pH by increments of 0.5 and see what crashes out at each step. Centrigugation is just to collect the precipitates much much faster.
Aye. But one can just dissolve some THH salt in water, then slowly basify till clouds of precipitation form. Then take a pH measurement. It's not as good as knowing the pKa but at least it tells you at which pH THH is freebased and insoluble. Which is actually the reason why we want to know the pKa.
^^Good deal much more practical to do as well. SWIM agrees taking advantage of difference in pka would be much better approach then column chromatography especially for home work.
SWIM took 80mg of THH HCl + 31mg of dmt fumarate at *time*
mixed together in warm water
started feeling effects 10 minutes after ingestion..even though he got a wave as soon as he drank it
this is on a few crackers and then he drank a beer...closest thing to bread he had very wonderful feeling so far...visuals have just started to come forth..and very clear headed
mixed together in warm water
started feeling effects 10 minutes after ingestion..even though he got a wave as soon as he drank it
this is on a few crackers and then he drank a beer...closest thing to bread he had
very wonderful feeling so far...visuals have just started to come forth..and very clear headed
Jorkest,
Please enlighten us on SWIY's experience. I've been following this thread eagerly and with great interest.
Please enlighten us on SWIY's experience. I've been following this thread eagerly and with great interest.
the experience has been relaxed and fairly mild..SWIM has been getting mild audio hallucinations and mild open and closed eye visuals...he says its been a very nice experience but thinks 80mg of THH was a bit too little...100-120mg might be a bit better but he wanted to find the lower end of the spectrum..soon he is going to try it with some cacao beans..perhaps with 50mg thh hcl and 10-15mg dmt fumarate.. or 30-40mg THH hcl and 15-30mg of dmt fumarate plus 2-3 grams of cacao beans...he feels that might be a nice quick..powerful experience..with minimal THH usage..and minimal spice
he feels that if he smoked just a little spice right now it would ramp up the experience quite a bit..the THH's effects are fairly prominent..and feel like they could last for quite a bit longer...perhaps after some food he may try a little toke from his pipe to see how that goes...hes pretty sure it will be wonderful
he feels that if he smoked just a little spice right now it would ramp up the experience quite a bit..the THH's effects are fairly prominent..and feel like they could last for quite a bit longer...perhaps after some food he may try a little toke from his pipe to see how that goes...hes pretty sure it will be wonderful
69ron
Rising Star
Jorkest said:SWIM took 80mg of THH HCl + 31mg of dmt fumarate at *time*
mixed together in warm water
started feeling effects 10 minutes after ingestion..even though he got a wave as soon as he drank it
this is on a few crackers and then he drank a beer...closest thing to bread he had
…
the experience has been relaxed and fairly mild..SWIM has been getting mild audio hallucinations and mild open and closed eye visuals...he says its been a very nice experience but thinks 80mg of THH was a bit too little...100-120mg might be a bit better but he wanted to find the lower end of the spectrum…
Cool info Jorkest.
THH is supposed to be a weaker MAOI than harmaline, so that makes sense according to the literature, which SWIY just backed up in that test. Harmaline can fully activate DMT at about 75-100 mg (depending on the person). Harmine takes 150-200 mg to fully activate DMT, so it seems like THH is stronger than harmine at activating DMT.
So here’s what we know so far about activating oral DMT with THH.
* 200 mg THH HCl fully activated 20 mg of freebase DMT and seemed to also make the DMT stronger.
* 80 mg THH HCl partially activated 31 mg of DMT fumarate.
It usually doesn’t take much more than the minimum to fully activate DMT. So I’m guessing that 100-120 mg would be the full dose needed to fully activate DMT, but that higher doses would also increase the activity of DMT beyond mere activation. In SWIM’s test 200 mg made 20 mg of DMT STRONGER than he’s ever experienced before. It was maybe as strong as 35 mg DMT. SWIM will try again to be sure about that.
tryptographer
tryptamine photographer
And then there's this other interesting TetraHydro... anyone ever heard of Cannabinols?
Well, I guess I like anything starting with TH
SWIM decided that after a nice day of exploration that he would continue it into the night...he is still feeling the THH hcl from the first dose..so he figures he wont need quite as much but he is going to up the dose of the spice..
dose is 57mg of dmt fumarate + 67mg of THH HCl...he wants to find out the difference..will report back later
hes also eaten a bit of chicken and rice..feels no nausea
**he just swallowed it he telepathically tells me...felt an immediate wave through his body..feels nice
dose is 57mg of dmt fumarate + 67mg of THH HCl...he wants to find out the difference..will report back later
hes also eaten a bit of chicken and rice..feels no nausea
**he just swallowed it he telepathically tells me...felt an immediate wave through his body..feels nice