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Tetrahydroharmine (THH) and DMT taken orally

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69ron

69ron

Rising Star
SWIM did a test. He wanted to see if THH could activate DMT by itself.

He mixed 200 mg of THH HCl with 20 mg of freebase DMT in 1 glass of water along with 100 mg of citric acid to make the DMT dissolve.

He drank it down. Effects started at about 10 minutes with a unusual tryptamine feeling. At 30 minutes the effects were just starting to get really intense. It peaked at about 45 minutes. At 1 hour it was definitely fading but not quickly.

During the peak, the psychedelic state was quite intense. There were DMT visuals as expected (never as nice as bufotenine visuals though). The DMT overwhelmed the feeling of the THH. Even during the peak when the psychedelic effects are almost unmanageable, the mind still remained very clear and focused. SWIM was able to visualize people at will. It was quite remarkable. There was a very intense rush of energy during the peak. SWIM could not sit still and had to dance it off, which was a lot of fun.

SWIM was actually quite surprised at the intensity of the experience.

So to activate 20 mg of DMT, 200 mg of tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride is very effective.
 
how does this stack up with THH citrate? think it would work the same?

edit: and could you use this with dmt fumarate?
 
According to PubChem, freebase tetrahydroharmine has a molecular weight of 216.27894 g/mol.

Here’s a link to that page: (R)-Tetrahydroharmine

According to PubChem, tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride weighs 252.73988 g/mol

Here’s that page: 9H-Pyrido(3,4-b)indole, 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-7-methoxy-1-methyl-, hydrochloride

So tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride weighs 36.46094 g/mol more than the freebase, which amounts to 1.1685829420099802597515967111731 times the weight of the freebase. So it’s nearly as potent as the freebase. Hydrochloric acid weighs 36.46 g/mol.

If you look at that page or calculate it by weight, you can see that tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride is a one to one salt. I don’t know about the citrate, I can’t find information about whether or not it’s a one to one salt.

Citric acid weighs 192.123 g/mol, so if the citrate is a one to one salt it should weight 192.123 g/mol more than the freebase coming to 408.40194 g/mol. So it would weigh 1.8883111781479972113789719886735 times more than the freebase and 1.6158982903687380084219395846829 times more than the hydrochloride.

So 200 mg of tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride should be as potent as 323 mg of tetrahydroharmine citrate (assuming it’s a one to one salt, which is probably is). That’s quite a difference in potency.


SWIM has tried both and other than tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride being stronger and tasting a little worse, the effects are identical. So even though tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride costs a little more than tetrahydroharmine citrate, you are actually getting more for your money.


Jorkest, SWIM was quite blown away by the strength of 20 mg of freebase DMT mixed with 200 mg THH HCl. They were taken together at the same time in water with 100 mg of citric acid added to make the DMT dissolve as DMT citrate. The effects peaked after about 45 minutes. The peak was way stronger than SWIM expected for 20 mg of DMT. He was not prepared for it. But it was A LOT OF FUN. SWIM was able to sleep about 2 hours after taking it and had lots of fantastic dreams.

DMT has a molecular weight of 188.269 g/mol.

Fumaric acid weighs 116.07 g/mol.

DMT fumarate weighs 492.608 g/mol being two DMT molecules to one fumaric acid molecule. So it weighs 1.3082557404564745125325996313785 times as much as freebase DMT.

So 20 mg of freebase DMT is equal to 26 mg of the DMT fumarate. So for the same effects you would mix: 26 mg of DMT fumarate with 200 mg of THH HCl (or 323 mg of THH citrate). It should work very well.

Jorkest, the trip was quite intense and it seems like the THH used was excessive. I imagine probably 100 mg of THH HCl would work. Next time SWIM will try that.

To give you an idea of the intensity, during the peak, SWIM could not sit still at all, it was like a strong acid trip. Closing the eyes lead to out of body experiences complete with other entities present. It was amazing. And all the while SWIM’s mind was clear and focused but also in a strong psychedelic state.

The DMT SWIM used was clear white and extracted from psychotria viridis so it didn’t have that rough edge mimosa is sometimes known for.

The experience was more crystal clear than that achieved using harmine or harmaline. There was absolutely no mental fog present. THH leaves your brain in top condition. That’s the main difference SWIM noticed. THH smoothes out the experience without muddying the waters at all. It was the best oral DMT experience SWIM ever had. There was no nausea, and it was more crystal clear than an acid trip.
 
ahh thank you for that info! now i think i can figure a bit more of this stuff out myself..seeing your thought process like that...just wonderful!

SWIM had an interesting night recently. well actually two interesting nights. he has been mixing THH citrate with smoked rue seeds...to get a very nice buzz started with that. well he then smokes his spice through his vaporgenie and then all the sudden he was seeing this white tube. it was his puke bucket he had just so happened to get ready. had a nice purge..cheered on by beings.

EDIT:hes not smoking the THH...either sublingually or orally

and then a few days later he did the same thing and when he smoked his spice. he somehow ended up out the door puking again..he doesnt ever remember moving or feeling nauseous in anyway..just that all the sudden he is purging very LOVELY! they have been such great experiences. after purging it was like he was ready to continue the night with further explorations.

it seems to SWIM that the THH is somehow helping immensely with the purging. but ONLY when he smokes spice. otherwise there isnt ever any noticeable nausea. and it doesnt feel like nausea either..it feels EXTREMELY cleansing so i hear.

the first night when he purged..he looked down in his puke bucket and there was this black glob of stuff and he felt much better after getting it out.

hes gonna take about 200-250mg of thh citrate tonight in combination with some dmt fumarate..and then at the synchronized launch time he is gonna smoke from his pipe.. he thinks hes gonna plan it so that he smokes right before the peak of the orally ingested spice
 
SWIM has had wonderful and lengthy experiences with 300mg of crude rue extract (primarily harmine) and 150mg of DMT fumarate with no nausea to speak of. SWIM's planning on implementing 200mg of THH HCl and decreasing the harmine dose to around 150-200mg. Any suggestions? Should SWIM expect any nausea from this experience?
 
SWIM never got any nausea at all.

200 mg of THH HCl doesn't need any harmine or harmaline. It is plenty strong enough to activate the DMT orally on its own. With the added harmine, it will be more ayahuasca like. Without the harmine, it's more like smoked DMT or sort of LSD like. Harmine adds a dreamy component to the experience and also adds a little mental fog. THH adds a smooth euphoric friendly component to the experience and also adds to the visuals and doesn't add any mental fog. Harmaline adds a lot of metnal fog and will make the trip extremely dreamy and take away from the clear mental state of DMT.

You should not get any nausea if you're at all like SWIM.
 
Taken from another thread:
69ron said:
No, no, no. Tetrahydroharmine (THH) is a weak SSRI. All the recent studies show this is the case. It is also a weak MAOI (RIMA actually).
Click to expand...
Is it really that weak a MAOI/RIMA if 200 mg were enough to activate DMT?
 
Well compared with harmaline yes. Harmaline only takes about 75 mg to activate DMT orally.
 
It's possible, because THH is both a weak MAOI and a weak SSRI, that the combination makes it as potent as harmaline when it comes to activating DMT orally, regardless of it being a weaker MAOI.

More tests by SWIM and others need to be done to be sure about it.

To SWIM, 200 mg felt like more than enough to activate 20 mg DMT orallly. I imagine 100 mg of THH could possibly be enough to activate DMT orally. SWIM will test that next time. But he’s still a little shaken by last night’s experience and needs a break for a while.
 
Is it possible that with 200mg THH, larger amounts of DMT-fumarate could last longer than smaller amounts? If 20mg DMT last for an hour, would 40 maybe last for and hour and a half to two hours? Or is the length entirely dependent of the amount of the harmaloid?

Also, would 30-45min be sufficient time for allowing the THH to take sufficient effect before dosing with DMT, or is that too long?

SWIM's access to THH is fairly limited at the moment but has plenty of DMT fumarate, so if the the effects of higher DMT doses are not known, SWIM can test it. SWIM just doesn't want to waste any THH unnecessarily with improper timing.

69ron said:
The experience was more crystal clear than that achieved using harmine or harmaline. There was absolutely no mental fog present. THH leaves your brain in top condition. That’s the main difference SWIM noticed. THH smoothes out the experience without muddying the waters at all. It was the best oral DMT experience SWIM ever had. There was no nausea, and it was more crystal clear than an acid trip.
Click to expand...

This is very interesting. Sounds like extracted THH could change the world of DMT forever. It's quite timely too, considering how recently the FASA method was developed, making pharmahuasca far more approachable than ever. Perhaps it's better to just do caapi brews to achieve the caapi experience rather than try to mimic it through straight pharmahusca, if the the THH on its own is as good as it sounds; especially considering how expensive THH is.
 
69ron what is a good way to prime your body for taking this combo...SWIM got wonderful effects from 100mg of harmine + 50mg of THH +50mg dmt fumarate..but has been unable to repeat the experiment...and he knows it has to do with how he sets his body up before taking the combo...

so he was just wondering what your steps are for making sure the body is perfectly set for taking this
 
Jorkest, SWIM doesn’t do it the way most people do.

SWIM found fasting and all that other special diet stuff leads SWIM to getting nausea. SWIM stopped doing that a long time ago.

SWIM eats pizza, aged cheese sandwiches, drinks coffee, and all sorts of other “forbidden” MAOI diet foods all the time, even during trips. The harmala alkaloids are weak MAOIs and are actually RIMAs and therefore don’t require a special MAOI diet.

The typical way SWIM uses pharmahuasca is as follows:

1) Dissolve harmala alkaloids in a glass of warm water.
2) Dissolve some acid (citric acid) in the water, enough to make the DMT more soluble.
3) Dissolve the DMT in the water.
4) Drink down really fast on an empty stomach.
5) Eat something substantial (a big peace of bread) and drink some juice to clear the alkaloid taste out of your mouth to prevent it from triggering nausea.

He rapidly drinks it on an empty stomach and then eats and drinks right after. He’s much less likely to get nausea that way. I know that’s contrary to most people’s idea on the subject, but SWIM never gets any nausea or side effects from doing it like that. The taste of the mix is bitter, and bitter taste alone is enough to trigger nausea, so the best thing after drinking it down is to eat something really tasty to clear the bitter alkaloid taste out of your mouth and to get your stomach into thinking “wow here’s some important food to digest” instead of “oh crap, a bunch of alkaloids, I better eject this”. Anyway, it works for SWIM.

Note that harmine and harmaline (but not THH) can cause visually induce motion oriented nausea for some people, especially people prone to getting cyber sickness or motion sickness.

You might have better effects from just THH and DMT.
 
ahhh yes! exactly! absolutely wonderful...this is EXACTLY how SWIM did it his first times..but was never able to quite do the same thing again..he took the harmine and thh then 20 minutes later took the dmt fumarate..this was all in capsule form...and then he got really hungry about 20 minutes after taking the dmt..so he ate a huge bowl of cereal...with milk...and his stomach did exactly what you say..."wow here's some important food to digest" and then he started on his journey very very strongly...

this is exactly what SWIM was looking for...and its interesting that he did it right the first time...and was unable to quite do it again..

thanks for the info 69ron
 
amor_fati said:
Is it possible that with 200mg THH, larger amounts of DMT-fumarate could last longer than smaller amounts? If 20mg DMT last for an hour, would 40 maybe last for and hour and a half to two hours? Or is the length entirely dependent of the amount of the harmaloid?
Click to expand...

20 mg of DMT doesn’t last for an hour. You misunderstood SWIM. It starts to slowly fade after an hour. The total trip lasts about 4-6 hours.

A pharmahuasca trip normally peaks at 45-90 minutes. It mostly depends on how you take it and how much DMT is present. If you take it in a capsule, it tends to take longer to peak. If you take it dissolved in water it tends to peak faster.

THH is believed to prolong the effects of DMT more than harmine or harmaline can.

amor_fati said:
Also, would 30-45min be sufficient time for allowing the THH to take sufficient effect before dosing with DMT, or is that too long?
Click to expand...

SWIM has only tried taking THH and DMT simultaneously. THH peaks after 2 1/2 hours. So you can probably take the DMT up to an hour after taking the THH.

200 mg of THH and 20 mg of DMT was the strongest oral DMT trip SWIM ever had from 20 mg of DMT. THH seems to increase the activity of DMT, not just orally activate it.

amor_fati said:
SWIM's access to THH is fairly limited at the moment but has plenty of DMT fumarate, so if the the effects of higher DMT doses are not known, SWIM can test it. SWIM just doesn't want to waste any THH unnecessarily with improper timing.

69ron said:
The experience was more crystal clear than that achieved using harmine or harmaline. There was absolutely no mental fog present. THH leaves your brain in top condition. That’s the main difference SWIM noticed. THH smoothes out the experience without muddying the waters at all. It was the best oral DMT experience SWIM ever had. There was no nausea, and it was more crystal clear than an acid trip.
Click to expand...

This is very interesting. Sounds like extracted THH could change the world of DMT forever. It's quite timely too, considering how recently the FASA method was developed, making pharmahuasca far more approachable than ever. Perhaps it's better to just do caapi brews to achieve the caapi experience rather than try to mimic it through straight pharmahusca, if the the THH on its own is as good as it sounds; especially considering how expensive THH is.
Click to expand...

SWIM finds the experience from THH and DMT better than any other mix. Even the pharmahuasca mix of THH, harmine, and harmaline, is not as good. It’s like caapi, which is good, and better than rue, but pure THH and DMT is better than either.

Next time SWIM will try 100 mg of THH with 20 mg of DMT to see if that’s enough to activate it. If so, that would be REALLY COOL.
 
Ah, good to know. Perhaps increased amounts of DMT would only increase the visual richness of the trip, though perhaps not significantly. SWIM will try 150mg DMT fumarate with 200mg THH within the next two weeks. SWIM will then try decreasing the dose to 75mg DMT fumarate on his next trip with the same amount of THH for comparison. This should be enough of a margin to compare results. SWIM's generally more comfortable with slightly overdoing it than with missing the mark.

SWIM is still dying to see how effective 5-10mg THH HCl through insuffulation can be with smoked spice.
 
69ron said:
200 mg of THH and 20 mg of DMT was the strongest oral DMT trip SWIM ever had from 20 mg of DMT. THH seems to increase the activity of DMT, not just orally activate it.
Click to expand...
You should try adding 2-3 gram of raw cacao to the mix. Is recently been shown on the ayahuasca forum to potentiate dmt by 3-5 times...Not sure if it is because more is absorbed into the blood or if it is an effect in the brain.

SWIMs girlfriend uses it when doing ayahuasca. Makes the dmt about 5 times as potent for her with 2.2 gram of raw criollo cacao taken together with caapi, then 20 minutes later taking the admixture plant(dmt).
 
Hi - im following this thread with a lot of interest. Can someone point me in the right direction for an extraction tek for Tetrahydroharmine. Searched site and google but cant seem to find anything of value.

SWIM was planning and experiement with DMT fumarate and the vine this weekend, but it makes sense to try this...

thanks for any help.
 
Dagger said:
69ron said:
200 mg of THH and 20 mg of DMT was the strongest oral DMT trip SWIM ever had from 20 mg of DMT. THH seems to increase the activity of DMT, not just orally activate it.
Click to expand...
You should try adding 2-3 gram of raw cacao to the mix. Is recently been shown on the ayahuasca forum to potentiate dmt by 3-5 times...Not sure if it is because more is absorbed into the blood or if it is an effect in the brain.

SWIMs girlfriend uses it when doing ayahuasca. Makes the dmt about 5 times as potent for her with 2.2 gram of raw criollo cacao taken together with caapi, then 20 minutes later taking the admixture plant(dmt).
Click to expand...

There’s nothing new about that combination. Maybe it’s new to those guys at that forum, but it’s been used to potentiate the effects of mushrooms for hundreds of years. It’s the theobromine that does it.

The theobromine in chocolate is known to potentiate the effects of nearly all tryptamine hallucinogens.

SWIM prefers a cup of chocolate milk made with 3 tablespoons of Hershey’s chocolate syrup in a can rather than the raw plant. It tastes much better and is just as effective. I didn’t say three teaspoons, I SAID 3 TABLESPOONS. That’s 9 teaspoons of syrup.

But theobromine can’t orally activate DMT on it’s own like THH, harmine, or harmaline can.

SWIM hasn’t tried mixing theobromine with DMT and THH yet. It’s an interesting combination to try. He likes it with Yopo, mushrooms, and especially HBWR (or LSH).
 
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