THC-acid extraction

[lysurgeon]

Someone posted somewhere a method like this:

Extract three times with charcoal lighter or any light aliphatic mix around one mason jar full of fresh fan leaves or higher quality bits of the c. Sativindica plant

Prepare solution of 1g naoh to 250g h2o

Combine the nonpolar and lyewater vigorously, forming sodium-thc-acid salt

Separate layers, nonpolar can be evapped to yield ok honey oil

Acidify aqueous solution with sulfuric or your favorite low ph stuff

Add small amount of nonpolar, shake and remove. Evaporate nonpolar to yield fairly pure thc acid, easily you would do this with heat probably decarboxylating to yield fairly pure thc.

The texture of the resulting product is like sand, not at all sticky and it looks like the same tan as cactus citrates, later stage mimosa fb or Parmesan. Light tan solid. Melts over a bowl very nicely, does not taste strongly at all but is very potent.

Kingsford odorless charcoal lighter. I know ronson would be better. Times is ruff.

 

[maxzar100]

Would it be able to use potassium hydroxide and vinegar instead of lye and sulfuric acid?

 

[The Day Tripper]

not going to work. its not an alkaloid (thc) and you can't extract it via an acid base. if your thinking about thc carboxylic acid the nonpsychoactive form of thc that becomes active upon curing, idk, mabey. but you would need fresh bud to do that, and then you would have to heat the end product for it for it to become active, assuming it isn't degraded/destroyed in the extraction process, and that an a/b works for thc carboxylic acid, which it wouldn't as the alkalinity of the base would decarboxylate it into thc, which won't form salts.

Just ain't gonna happen.

 

[ntwhtyouknw]

Can you be certain of that Day Tripper? Sure the actives in Cannabis are not alkaloids but perhaps Cannabanoids act similarly. Has anyone tried this that can comment?
Ive also heard the actives in magic mushrooms are not alkaloids, but can be extracted with a type of acid-base extraction taking care as to the ph staying in a certain range. It certainly shouldn't be ruled out as impossible to extract from Cannabis on that basis without giving it a shot. Maybe someone with some advanced chemistry knowledge will comment.

 

[Infundibulum]

Can you be certain of that Day Tripper? Sure the actives in Cannabis are not alkaloids but perhaps Cannabanoids act similarly. Has anyone tried this that can comment?
Ive also heard the actives in magic mushrooms are not alkaloids, but can be extracted with a type of acid-base extraction taking care as to the ph staying in a certain range. It certainly shouldn't be ruled out as impossible to extract from Cannabis on that basis without giving it a shot. Maybe someone with some advanced chemistry knowledge will comment.

can you ever extract other stuff like fatty acids with such method described by the OP?

Answer is no.

end of the story.

 

[The Day Tripper]

Can you be certain of that Day Tripper? Sure the actives in Cannabis are not alkaloids but perhaps Cannabanoids act similarly. Has anyone tried this that can comment?
Ive also heard the actives in magic mushrooms are not alkaloids, but can be extracted with a type of acid-base extraction taking care as to the ph staying in a certain range. It certainly shouldn't be ruled out as impossible to extract from Cannabis on that basis without giving it a shot. Maybe someone with some advanced chemistry knowledge will comment.

The alkaloids in mushrooms are zwitterion's (at least psilocybin, and the 4-substituted nmt tryptamines baeocystin and norbaeocystin) psilocin is a normal alkaloid, IE it doesn't have a ester protecting the 4-ho group which is what makes psilocin so fragile. Cannabinoids are terpenoids. Completely different molecules, and while zwitterions are not exactly classical alkaloids, they fall under the umbrella definition of the term. Alkaloid is a very broad descriptor of amine containing molecules.

Zwitterions are just almost completely neutral alkaloids compared to ones that are more basic like psilocin, or dmt. Cannabinoids lack the amine for an acid to "attach" to, which technically is not what is happening, especially in solution, but just know all (iirc) alkaloids contain a nitrogen atom, thc does not.

If you want a better explanation, someone like benz or a member who actually has a formal education in chemistry can help you understand the how and why.

Diddn't mean to come off as abrasive or condecending, don't trust statements i make about chemistry, and hell, even the experts can be wrong. Best way (the way i learn) is to do the research yourself and check the sources.

 

[lysurgeon]

Hi there. Well soon enough I will be working with ronsonol for this to see if it works in place of the kingsford. It should be preferrable, having a low boiling point. You remember the description of the product's physical properties and of it's being rather potent as smoked over a bowl? First hand experience. I use fan leaves that are dried for 1-2 days on a sheet of plastic in my living room as source material for this procedure. I have tried it on aged plant matter and wound up with a poor yield of gross tasting red oil which tastes too bad for me to find out if it is active.

I also tried using fresh undried plant matter which resulted in massive chlorophyll contamination. Tried what amounts to an STB on it (extracting plant matter with lye water) and got a similarly chlorophylled out gunk. Both of these variations resulted in poor yields. Also evaporated the solvent used to extract the plant with, and didn't really like the oil so I subjected it to the sulfuric/isopropanol isomerization and it came out still somewhat funky. Perhaps if I was using bud the oil would be of better quality.

Also it is heat that decarboxylates the thc, otherwise you need a strong acid

Oh and a nicety that has arisen is the use of hcl instead of sulfuric to crash out the thc-acid. Not only is it less stinky, it makes you not have to get sulfuric.

Also want to add that the ratio of naoh to water is carefully measured to produce a ph 13 solution. Apparently a minimum of 12.7 or so is required to form the salt and above 13.5 begins to degrade the thc acid. These figures are from memory and I promise they are not accurate. This info is out there and can be searched by means of an engine. The title of this thread, thc-acid extraction, brings up numerous variations on this theme. Lol at those who doubt or needlessly hate.

 

[wage.]

Doing an Acid Base Extraction is a waste of time on Cannabis. You're better off using Butane or Naphtha/Shellite.

 

[The Day Tripper]

Lol at those who doubt or needlessly hate.

Burden of proof is on you to back up such claims. There no evidence thc or other terpenoids behave like alkaoids in a typical acid base extraction, or that a salt form of thc is possible.

And yes, alkalinity (not acidity) will turn take the plant precursor to thc and activate it into its psychoactive form, so will curing. Thus even if you could extract that "acid form" or thc, the inactive one mind you, it wouldn't work in an a/b.

The claim you are making is basically that you can form salts from the same family of compounds as non-polar solvents. Alkaloid salts are almost always water soluble, ever notice how people water-cure their bud before butane extraction?

 

[CosmicLion]

THC Acetate ...

brah...

THC Acetate | Skunk Pharm Research

:thumb_up:

 

[Infundibulum]

Lol at those who doubt or needlessly hate.

Burden of proof is on you to back up such claims. There no evidence thc or other terpenoids behave like alkaoids in a typical acid base extraction, or that a salt form of thc is possible.

And yes, alkalinity (not acidity) will turn take the plant precursor to thc and activate it into its psychoactive form, so will curing. Thus even if you could extract that "acid form" or thc, the inactive one mind you, it wouldn't work in an a/b.

The claim you are making is basically that you can form salts from the same family of compounds as non-polar solvents. Alkaloid salts are almost always water soluble, ever notice how people water-cure their bud before butane extraction?

The method posted in the OP is based on the idea that the (non polar solvent-soluble) THC-acid will form a salt with sodium from the base and that, as a salt will be partitioned in the aqueous phase and not the non polar solvent one. This is clever thinking here, but misses an important point, that is:

You will form a THC-acid sodium salt, but that will be a detergent , i.e. a substance that is partitioned everywhere, making a useless mess. The same happens with acids of fatty acids - you make soap molecules upon contact with lye.

Then it goes on to say that you uncouple this THC detergent with sulfuric (or other) acid to give you THC-acid that now is soluble in non-polar solvent? Well, that's straight up bullshit. Please people stop discussing this nonsense.

 

[lysurgeon]

I will post a pictorial then. It will include each step and each visible change. Burden of proof biatch

 

[The Traveler]

Burden of proof biatch

Excuse me?

And will you also provide analytic proof of the end product please?


The Traveler

 

[lysurgeon]

It just seems that nexians are so much more supportive and respectful towards people working with unusual teks when it's not me. Please realize I didn't come here to speak with disrespect, and obviously I would have no motivation to do so without being pushed.

People can waste their own plant matter all they want doing stuff not everyone would do to it, so why bother yourself and me over it? If you don't like it, don't do it. I came here to post stuff that I'm working on because the "s"-ery people kept heckling me and generally giving me a hard time, which as you can see I am kinda sensitive to.

And shouting biatch is not cool. It was a reflection not a representation.

I just don't see people who talk about a/b type extraction getting laughed out of the room because "brah, everyone does STB round here"

 

[The Traveler]

lysurgeon,

Please understand that the people in this thread, of which at least one has professional chemical experience and knowledge, did explain to you in detail why this will not work. This is not an attack on you, they are telling you that this road that you are on is a dead end and that you better turn around and spend your time on a different path.

So they are not questioning you. Quite the contrary, they want to make sure you don't waste your time and maybe loose your substances in that process. Of course you can still go ahead and bump your head but at least be so civil to do that without resorting to name calling and bringing in bad vibes.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[The Day Tripper]

It just seems that nexians are so much more supportive and respectful towards people working with unusual teks when it's not me. Please realize I didn't come here to speak with disrespect, and obviously I would have no motivation to do so without being pushed.

People can waste their own plant matter all they want doing stuff not everyone would do to it, so why bother yourself and me over it? If you don't like it, don't do it. I came here to post stuff that I'm working on because the "s"-ery people kept heckling me and generally giving me a hard time, which as you can see I am kinda sensitive to.

And shouting biatch is not cool. It was a reflection not a representation.

I just don't see people who talk about a/b type extraction getting laughed out of the room because "brah, everyone does STB round here"

I'd like to apologise for my dismissive tone regarding shooting down your idea, i really don't have a chemistry background so i don't have much room to shoot down others or your ideas. And i did not realize what you were proposing was not just a simple a/b.

Still, the attitude around here is definately scientific when it comes to extractions. You are going to get solid advice from trained/educated chemists, and if your not one yourself i would take what advice they give you with a great deal of relevance. If you have a chemistry education and can explain the process, in detail, and how exactly thc is forming ionic complexes (or saponic, i really don't know once again), then i will eat my humble pie gladly.

I think your just going to get alot of resistance, since the attitude is, back up your claims with sources, or be able to explain it simply (as einstein said, if you can't do that, you don't fully understand it), in line with how these molecules interact chemically in extraction techniques relative to current understanding of the chemical properties of such compounds.

Its just hard to think this could work (not saying it definately won't, as i can't provide sources/understand how it wouldn't, despite my earlier posts claiming i do), when you have chemists with degree's saying its not a viable process.

 

[lysurgeon]

Okay. I have prepared a step-by-step photo sequence for this process.

I had fun doing this and I felt like it was helpful for me to do this project as it will hopefully inspire further innovations and also I really want to share this hash. I apologize for the bad vibes and bad communication. Very very tired now but here ya go.

Also, CosmicLion, the link you provided refers to the esterification of thc. The process described using acetic for esterification is very similar to the process of thc isomerization using sulfuric acid. These are both a different process from this. In theory the thc-acid is extracted by the nonpolar, the lye water forms the thc-acid salt and dissolves it, then when the salt is broken up by a strong acid (hcl) the thc-acid crashes out of solution to be taken up with a nonpolar solvent. Between the strong acid used to crash it out and the heat used to evap the solvent I would guess that the product is decarboxylated.

 

[lysurgeon]

1. weighed out 20g dried fan leaves

2. added about 120ml charcoal lighter fluid

3. with mashing on and off for about 10 minutes it becomes green and cloudy

4. at this point went ahead and filtered it

5. and started a second pull, which lasted around 30 minutes

6. and filtering the second pull

7. squeezed the last bits of juice out, about 1 tablespoon of oily plant mass per filter

8. (left) first pull (center) second pull (right) squeezings

9. since they appear identical, they were combined - this indicates that possibly longer extraction time of the same plant matter could continue to yield more end product

10. (left) pooled charcoal lighter fluid extracts (right) 1g NaOH in 250g H2O

11. poured green lighter fluid into lye water. an orange coloration started to fractal its way down through the water

12. and it continued beautifully like this without stirring

13. it was shaken thoroughly leading to orange water

14. solvent was lazily removed from atop the lye water

15. and the lye water was isolated using an oral dosage syringe

16. a second lye water extraction on the same solvent did not cause water discoloration and proved unnecessary

17. (left) orange lye water (right) 4g 31% HCl in 60g H2O

18. the acidified mixture becomes chalky white and very milky

19. the acidified mixture is extracted with a small amount of naphtha

20. due to emulsion, the solvent mixed with emulsion and aqueous layer is filtered

21. the previously orange lye water, still looking milky after having been extracted with naphtha

22. the naphtha used to extract from the acidified solution

23. the naphtha was evaporated on a plate over electric heat

24. the solvent mostly gone, the extract at this temperature is liquid, and still contains enough solvent to be gooey

25. with "manual crystallization" aka smash 'n smear, the extract becomes fairly solid

26. in this picture, all the fuzzy out of focus blob in the middle of the plate is actually powdery

27. extract with the foil it was weighed on - total yield is 160 mg

28. and into its resting place, a small jar

10 mg of the extract was weighed out and smoked with a very slightly packed bowl and it resulted in a quite strong effect.
Overall yield based on 20g plant matter and 0.16g extract would be 0.8%.

 

[Infundibulum]

Nice, but shouldn't you have used controls?

e.g. using just water (instead of basic water) to mix with your naphtha extract,

and also pulling with the fresh naphtha with and without the addition of acid?

Without appropriate controls there is no way of telling that your tek worked as predicted, as many things could have accounted for your observations.

Two more points: did you eveporate and assay the naphtha layer from step 16? Do you plan to provide any analysis on your end product?

 

[lysurgeon]

Interesting. I hadn't thought of skipping the acid step. and using water instead of base water to pull from the naphtha. I will definitely give those ideas a shot and report back.

Previously (not from this particular event) the kingsford which came in contact with the plant matter has been evaporated to yield an orange-brown goop. It produces effects when smoked but they are mild in comparison to the powdery extract and the flavor is not too friendly.

And as for end product analysis: I would be down but I only have the technology available for paper chromatography and don't really have other materials to compare it to.