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The case against Elves
- Thread starter VisualDistortion
- Start date
Haha^^
Well on the topic of consensus reality. There is no conscious decision that we all make to agree on reality that makes reality the same. If everyone stopped believing in the moon it would still be there.
I think he just means that the current model explains everything and that there is no need to introduce novel sources of information to explain this phenomenon. In other words if you want to introduce such a thing the burden of proof lies more on the side that is trying to introduce it.
I don't know if we could percieve whats going on on the other side of the galaxy even if we wanted too. Unless the information is travelling faster then the speed of light (which seems possible) and our brain is capable of doing something with it (seems less possible), there are a lot of things our brain cannot sense. There are many forms of electromagnetic radiation we simply don't detect and require machines to do so. I dunno it sounds a bit too far.
You are correct though that the pineal gland is some kind of old sense organ. It still has a function in regulating day and night cycles. But again our sense our limited by what kinds of information we are capable of perceiving and interpreting. That's why we need machines to detect certain things our senses cannot.
The backround noise filter is true we certainly aren't percieiving every part of our waking reality. Like you may not be aware of your clothes and such things depending on what you are doing. Its also likely that psychedelics change this filter and that explains some of whats going on. But realize 5-HT isn't the only recepter dmt is acting on. It also acts on the trace amine receptors whose function is still largely unknown.
You could leave a recorder out in the forest that will pick up the sound. That recorder is an unconscious dead thing therefore its not consciosness creating anything. Its a sound. Yes with some arguments like this we simply can't know unless we look but that doesn't mean we create objective reality. Again who does the burden of proof fall on? Science has done a lot to explain objective reality down to its most minute levels. Mystics claim that they are creating reality but who is to say they are not grossly misinterpreting their own mystical experiences? For example if you percieve yourself as one with everything (while in some sense you are) it could just be the part of your brain that distinguishes you your self from everything else not functioning. A trick of the mind.
In response to polytrip about supernatural forces. Why is anything above natural? By super natural do you mean that which defies the laws of nature? There is evidence that the laws of nature can change and that they can unite (super symetry) at high temp/pressure such as in the early universe. There is no real reason (yet) why the laws of the universe are the way they are. What is out there that truly defies the laws of nature (assuming we understand them all which we don't). I don't see anything that does.
I guess my main argument against the elves and entity contact is that there is no reason to really believe they are real within current models of the brain and consciousness. So why believe in them? Its the exact same reason I don't believe in god and angels. Just because someone saw them and talked to them doesn't mean anything. We KNOW with pretty good certaintly our brain is capable of making us see things that are not there even when people are not on drugs! How many people out there have claimed to see angels? Hundreds of thousands of people have. So are you going to start believing in angels now? I'm not because its the brain playing games with your head and the burden of proof lies with those who see such things not with science because science although it cannot explain it fully has a lot of mechanisms within current neurological models to explain what causes this kind of distortion of reality. Science as it studies these phenomenon more will come up with more answers and more mechanisms. Will it eventually reach a limit? Maybe but until then I see no reason to invoke magic fairy tales to explain entity contact.
Well on the topic of consensus reality. There is no conscious decision that we all make to agree on reality that makes reality the same. If everyone stopped believing in the moon it would still be there.
I think he just means that the current model explains everything and that there is no need to introduce novel sources of information to explain this phenomenon. In other words if you want to introduce such a thing the burden of proof lies more on the side that is trying to introduce it.
I don't know if we could percieve whats going on on the other side of the galaxy even if we wanted too. Unless the information is travelling faster then the speed of light (which seems possible) and our brain is capable of doing something with it (seems less possible), there are a lot of things our brain cannot sense. There are many forms of electromagnetic radiation we simply don't detect and require machines to do so. I dunno it sounds a bit too far.
You are correct though that the pineal gland is some kind of old sense organ. It still has a function in regulating day and night cycles. But again our sense our limited by what kinds of information we are capable of perceiving and interpreting. That's why we need machines to detect certain things our senses cannot.
The backround noise filter is true we certainly aren't percieiving every part of our waking reality. Like you may not be aware of your clothes and such things depending on what you are doing. Its also likely that psychedelics change this filter and that explains some of whats going on. But realize 5-HT isn't the only recepter dmt is acting on. It also acts on the trace amine receptors whose function is still largely unknown.
You could leave a recorder out in the forest that will pick up the sound. That recorder is an unconscious dead thing therefore its not consciosness creating anything. Its a sound. Yes with some arguments like this we simply can't know unless we look but that doesn't mean we create objective reality. Again who does the burden of proof fall on? Science has done a lot to explain objective reality down to its most minute levels. Mystics claim that they are creating reality but who is to say they are not grossly misinterpreting their own mystical experiences? For example if you percieve yourself as one with everything (while in some sense you are) it could just be the part of your brain that distinguishes you your self from everything else not functioning. A trick of the mind.
In response to polytrip about supernatural forces. Why is anything above natural? By super natural do you mean that which defies the laws of nature? There is evidence that the laws of nature can change and that they can unite (super symetry) at high temp/pressure such as in the early universe. There is no real reason (yet) why the laws of the universe are the way they are. What is out there that truly defies the laws of nature (assuming we understand them all which we don't). I don't see anything that does.
I guess my main argument against the elves and entity contact is that there is no reason to really believe they are real within current models of the brain and consciousness. So why believe in them? Its the exact same reason I don't believe in god and angels. Just because someone saw them and talked to them doesn't mean anything. We KNOW with pretty good certaintly our brain is capable of making us see things that are not there even when people are not on drugs! How many people out there have claimed to see angels? Hundreds of thousands of people have. So are you going to start believing in angels now? I'm not because its the brain playing games with your head and the burden of proof lies with those who see such things not with science because science although it cannot explain it fully has a lot of mechanisms within current neurological models to explain what causes this kind of distortion of reality. Science as it studies these phenomenon more will come up with more answers and more mechanisms. Will it eventually reach a limit? Maybe but until then I see no reason to invoke magic fairy tales to explain entity contact.
I'm not a hyperspace atheïst. It's just that it would be impossible for 'entities' to interact with us, if the same rules that aply to us would not SOMEHOW aply to them as well.
This means that as long as this world is the way we percieve it to be there will be no manifestations contradicting science. So elves could exist but they will never fully manifest (in a way that can be proven)and if they would, they would be made of flesh and blood.
Look at free will. You say you have it and you experience yourself having a free will on a daily basis. Yet determinism says you cannot have a free will. Both are true statements from their perspective on the same phenomenon. So this can be explained from a third perspective that's irrelevant for this discussion, but what's relevant is that the results of both truth's can never lead to totally different actions. Everything you do could always be explained by both ways of looking at it. They BOTH have to remain true at the same time, for each one to be possible to be true.
This means that as long as this world is the way we percieve it to be there will be no manifestations contradicting science. So elves could exist but they will never fully manifest (in a way that can be proven)and if they would, they would be made of flesh and blood.
Look at free will. You say you have it and you experience yourself having a free will on a daily basis. Yet determinism says you cannot have a free will. Both are true statements from their perspective on the same phenomenon. So this can be explained from a third perspective that's irrelevant for this discussion, but what's relevant is that the results of both truth's can never lead to totally different actions. Everything you do could always be explained by both ways of looking at it. They BOTH have to remain true at the same time, for each one to be possible to be true.
here...now...you want to make something..but you cant just make it..first you have to think about..so you think of a soda can..and you have to think about how you would make it...you design it in your mind..and then you draw it..and THEN you make it part of physical reality...
so where did the can come from? it came from the information field(imagination land)
we can access imagination land..whenever we want..we use it everyday..
what makes more sense...that the whole universe is physical reality..or would it make more sense that physical reality is just the tip of the iceberg..and the information reality is where everything stems from?
now what is interesting to me..is that if you were a hyperdimensional entity..with insane amounts of information at your finger tips..being able to modify and advance your reality with JUST the thought..without needing to bring it to the physical reality to work with it...WHY THE HELL would you ever manifest yourself into physical reality?? unless it was extremely important...
but you(hyper being) still wanted to be able to communicate with your brethren in physical reality who have forgotten where they come from..so the hyper beings..decide to leave a communication device(dmt) EVERYWHERE...right under out noses...all you have to do is look for it...through plants we are able to communicate with this greater reality...plants are one of the many bridges that we have to cross over..
while on pharmahuasca SWIM was able to communicate with his salvia plant..and she told him how he could help heal his friend..she is such a nice lady...so peaceful...she just likes to grow...
but the point is..if you were advanced enough to permanently cross over and live in hyperspace..and crazy enough..why would you ever need to come back to harsh physical reality..with all these humans destroying the planet they are on?!?! personally if i was an elf..i wouldnt want to be seen in physical reality..i would hide in the information reality..safely hidden from physical damage...i mean really..we've got nukes...if i was an elf..i would only come visit this reality rarely..
so where did the can come from? it came from the information field(imagination land)
we can access imagination land..whenever we want..we use it everyday..
what makes more sense...that the whole universe is physical reality..or would it make more sense that physical reality is just the tip of the iceberg..and the information reality is where everything stems from?
now what is interesting to me..is that if you were a hyperdimensional entity..with insane amounts of information at your finger tips..being able to modify and advance your reality with JUST the thought..without needing to bring it to the physical reality to work with it...WHY THE HELL would you ever manifest yourself into physical reality?? unless it was extremely important...
but you(hyper being) still wanted to be able to communicate with your brethren in physical reality who have forgotten where they come from..so the hyper beings..decide to leave a communication device(dmt) EVERYWHERE...right under out noses...all you have to do is look for it...through plants we are able to communicate with this greater reality...plants are one of the many bridges that we have to cross over..
while on pharmahuasca SWIM was able to communicate with his salvia plant..and she told him how he could help heal his friend..she is such a nice lady...so peaceful...she just likes to grow...
but the point is..if you were advanced enough to permanently cross over and live in hyperspace..and crazy enough..why would you ever need to come back to harsh physical reality..with all these humans destroying the planet they are on?!?! personally if i was an elf..i wouldnt want to be seen in physical reality..i would hide in the information reality..safely hidden from physical damage...i mean really..we've got nukes...if i was an elf..i would only come visit this reality rarely..
Jorkest said:
So they will never contradict our everyday reality. So it could very well be real, but only if it could be unreal just as well.
Man these are some excellent points being made all around. High fives to everybody!
I'm gonna take my time formulating a reply this time around, and I promise I'll try to keep it shorter than the last one!
In the mean time, I just wanna throw out a quick survey, to test a hypothesis of my own... how many of you from the "dmt atheist" camp have had much experience beyond just dmt? By that I mean incorporating things such as harmaloids into your practice, and/or ritual magick, observation of solstices/equinoxes, etc.? I'm guessing not so much on the latter aspects as those things would no doubt seem "silly" to the deterministic mind. I'm mainly curious about have you used harmaloids in conjunction with dmt much? Or drank much ayahuasca? Also am very curious about use of jungle spice, either by itself, or with dmt and/or harmaloids, etc.? Cuz I totally see how just smoking n,n could still allow the deterministic perspective to dominate... but not so much when you bring in those other things. At least that's what really got Swim to crawl out of his deterministic shell and take a look around (yes he was once in the atheist camp as well)...
So what's the word? Survey says...?
I'm gonna take my time formulating a reply this time around, and I promise I'll try to keep it shorter than the last one!
In the mean time, I just wanna throw out a quick survey, to test a hypothesis of my own... how many of you from the "dmt atheist" camp have had much experience beyond just dmt? By that I mean incorporating things such as harmaloids into your practice, and/or ritual magick, observation of solstices/equinoxes, etc.? I'm guessing not so much on the latter aspects as those things would no doubt seem "silly" to the deterministic mind. I'm mainly curious about have you used harmaloids in conjunction with dmt much? Or drank much ayahuasca? Also am very curious about use of jungle spice, either by itself, or with dmt and/or harmaloids, etc.? Cuz I totally see how just smoking n,n could still allow the deterministic perspective to dominate... but not so much when you bring in those other things. At least that's what really got Swim to crawl out of his deterministic shell and take a look around (yes he was once in the atheist camp as well)...
So what's the word? Survey says...?
islandhome
Rising Star
seen every thang but clowns durinh my first aya trip
not nowing what to expect
i have befrended a mantis who i call the doctor
he told me that these beings we see dont really look like thay do and nether did he
he said that its the easyest form thay
can make them selves into so we can see them
he showed me a room where there where these
thangs that where trying to morph in to some sort of beings
hyperspace is a place where thay play learn and pass on info
well thats what i was told any way
not nowing what to expect
i have befrended a mantis who i call the doctor
he told me that these beings we see dont really look like thay do and nether did he
he said that its the easyest form thay
can make them selves into so we can see them
he showed me a room where there where these
thangs that where trying to morph in to some sort of beings
hyperspace is a place where thay play learn and pass on info
well thats what i was told any way
Islandhome I'd say that sounds about right. Never had one of 'em actually tell me that nor really thought about it until you mentioned it but that fits with my impression of it all somehow.
I guess anything without a physical, material body would be essentially formless, or without being bound to any particular form at least.
Thanx for sharing that.
Cool quote btw
I'm guessing since you call him "the doctor" you get the whole "being operated on" thing too?
Those "mantids..." they're an interesting "species" of hyperspace inhabitant for sure. One of these daze I'm gonna have to get around to typing up a report of my experiences with them...
I guess anything without a physical, material body would be essentially formless, or without being bound to any particular form at least.
Thanx for sharing that.
Cool quote btw
I'm guessing since you call him "the doctor" you get the whole "being operated on" thing too?
Those "mantids..." they're an interesting "species" of hyperspace inhabitant for sure. One of these daze I'm gonna have to get around to typing up a report of my experiences with them...
Yikes, don't think I can catch up with this thread, but SWIM would like to add that though he's encountered entities on a number of occasions and has never been able to associate them with a particular archetype. Certainly they are mischievous yet elegant, and certainly their world is circus-like, and certainly the experience can sometimes feel quite "alien" and almost like an "invasion" or even an "abduction." SWIM feels it's easier for people to rely on cultural archetypes, but from SWIM's experience, hyperspace has its own archetypes of a far more complex (yet simpler) nature. Maybe DMT's archetypes are even the source of many cultural archetypes, but those archetypes have largely grown on a soil not of their own and should probably be cast out if a deeper understanding is sought.
I guess SWIM is being lumped into hyperspace aethiest category although I don't consider that an appropriate title SWIM sees what you mean. For survey purposes SWIM has experimented with all forms of spice intake but SWIM doesn't use spice or ayahuasca regularly. SWIM has no need to trip in excess at this stage in life. SWIM also doesn't see the need to explain how high one has been on spice as an indication that one has gone deep enough to be convinced of its awesome power. SWIM is convinced of the awesome power of this substance SWIM just doesn't believe the beings that are out there are real. Plain and simple. They could be but as of yet SWIM sees no reason to think they are for reasons already stated.
SWIM has had plenty of experience that made SWIM question what really happened especially with contacting ancestors (dead relatives) while on psilocin (never happened on dmt). So fuck aliens hearing voices from people who you know died was perhaps the most moving thing that ever happened to SWIM on a psychedelic substance. If it was real it changes everything but SWIM doesn't really believe that was real either so some stupid mantis abduction isn't going to change SWIMs mind or convince SWIM of much of anything except this drug is capable of creating potentially serious delusionary thoughts and ideas that only have a basis in peoples experience under the influence. It is possible that these things are real (SWIM is not that closed minded SWIM is just trying to make a point that just because you saw it doesn't make it real) conscious beings but my belief is that the only way to study is through objective science until it reaches the limit of possible understanding. Subjective trips are not an appropriate way of determining whats going on in this experience at this stage.
SWIM has had plenty of experience that made SWIM question what really happened especially with contacting ancestors (dead relatives) while on psilocin (never happened on dmt). So fuck aliens hearing voices from people who you know died was perhaps the most moving thing that ever happened to SWIM on a psychedelic substance. If it was real it changes everything but SWIM doesn't really believe that was real either so some stupid mantis abduction isn't going to change SWIMs mind or convince SWIM of much of anything except this drug is capable of creating potentially serious delusionary thoughts and ideas that only have a basis in peoples experience under the influence. It is possible that these things are real (SWIM is not that closed minded SWIM is just trying to make a point that just because you saw it doesn't make it real) conscious beings but my belief is that the only way to study is through objective science until it reaches the limit of possible understanding. Subjective trips are not an appropriate way of determining whats going on in this experience at this stage.
islandhome
Rising Star
all that has been said of the dmt trip
can be said of the (real world ) we live in
how do i know any of you are real people (any one that is )
are these places i go to every day
my interactions with this place we call earth
lets see
i see talk to and interact with people
i talk to and interact with dmt beings
(even met some british guy who was shocked to see a human that was cool )
i see touch feel ect interact with my earth world enviroment
dmt world same all sences there
the only thang that i have not done in hyper space is use the rest room
may be thats what the big diffrence is
you get to um go # one and number 2 here
so i guess thats the big one there
its not real unless you can crap on it
thanks and have a good day
i said good day :lol:
can be said of the (real world ) we live in
how do i know any of you are real people (any one that is )
are these places i go to every day
my interactions with this place we call earth
lets see
i see talk to and interact with people
i talk to and interact with dmt beings
(even met some british guy who was shocked to see a human that was cool )
i see touch feel ect interact with my earth world enviroment
dmt world same all sences there
the only thang that i have not done in hyper space is use the rest room
may be thats what the big diffrence is
you get to um go # one and number 2 here
so i guess thats the big one there
its not real unless you can crap on it
thanks and have a good day
i said good day :lol:
thats interesting about having to go to the bathroom...sometimes right in the middle of a breakthrough..SWIM will have to pee all the sudden...so he will have to pull himself out of the spice realm to do it but SWIM can still pee and poo in dreams...
one time while smoking the dust...a craft of some sort crashed into his bed and knocked over a bunch of his plants...well..there were two beings in the craft...but before SWIM could do anything...he had to piss REALLY bad...and he got up to piss..and he looked back..and of course the craft was gone...it was almost like they had made him have to pee so that he would turn his back and they would disappear into oblivion..
the weird part was that...a few minutes later SWIM opened his outside door..and when he did..he heard something run off through the woods..
one time while smoking the dust...a craft of some sort crashed into his bed and knocked over a bunch of his plants...well..there were two beings in the craft...but before SWIM could do anything...he had to piss REALLY bad...and he got up to piss..and he looked back..and of course the craft was gone...it was almost like they had made him have to pee so that he would turn his back and they would disappear into oblivion..
the weird part was that...a few minutes later SWIM opened his outside door..and when he did..he heard something run off through the woods..
This is exactly the schizophrenic behavior I am talking about. I don't mean that as an insult but seriously folks. Look at what this substance does to peoples perception about reality! Maybe dmt is telling us something fundamental about reality but hasn't anyone stopped to seriously consider that this entire idea that this is a "real" place could be way off? I consider the dangers of this very real.
For example the UDV to me is no different then a cult (but then again I feel that about all religion). They use a drug to teach people about their god (who is the christian god). Imagine that on a mass scale being used for not to honest or virtuous purposes?
Jorkest I'm curious... were the plants still knocked over after you came down? And are you sure you didn't knock them over yourself (in other words nothing but this craft could have done it?)
Islandhome you are right about the real world being no more solid than the dmt world from one's own subjective perspective...
From the point of view of objectivity, yeah, the burden of proof lies on the subject to prove that his exerpeice is real. Yet from the point of view of the subject, the burden of proof lies on the supposed "external" world to prove that IT is real.
The only thing I can truly know is that I AM. I experience. As for the source of what I experience, it could be an external, material world... it could be that I am dreaming, I am delusional, I am a brain in a jar, I am plugged into the matrix, I am under the spell of a magician or demiurge, etc. For me to assume that material reality is any more real than hyperspace is just another unfounded dogmatic belief. All I know is that I APPEAR to be experiencing it so I may as well act as if it is real until something happens to make me think otherwise. Plenty of things have happened to make me think hyperspace is real, and plenty of things have happened to make me think otherwise. So I remain skeptical. Plenty of things have happened to make me think material reality is real, and plenty of things have happened to make me think otherwise. So again I remain skeptical.
Basically all we can do is act in a manner that is fluid with whatever situation we happen to find ourselves in at the moment. And it helps to be prepared for that to change at any time.
This morning I was running through some kind of sewer system and something was chasing me. Then I woke up. But had I quit running before I woke up, I may have had to deal with being mauled by whatever it was that was chasing me. The fact that I was dreaming wouldn't have made being mauled suck any less at the time.
Same thing with this world... I'm not convinced it's real and not just another form of dream but to avoid "having a shitty dream" I go ahead and act as if it is real so that things keep running smoothly and I don't find myself "dreaming" about being locked up in a mental institution or something. Wheather or not it actually is real is irrelevant. All that matters is that I'm experiencing it so I may as well go with the flow.
Now burnt you are right to caution people about mixing the two realities. Just because some hyperspace entity tells you to do something in this reality doesn't mean you should listen. Same thing applies to entities from so-called "real" reality... just because I tell you to do something doesn't mean you should listen either.
What if Swim tells you to extract spice with limonene instead of petroleum because it's better? Does that mean you should automatically take his word for it? Probably the best thing to do in that case is test the hypothesis for yourself.
For that matter, what if Swim isn't real?
I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it that hyperspace is real. Quite the opposite actually, as that would be just another form of blind faith. Dogmatic belief is what's really dangerous here, whether it's the belief that something IS real OR the belief that it ISN'T. What I'm encouraging here is to keep an open mind.
Brother I couldn't agree with you more. And thank you for clarifying that. I guess really both you and I would fall into the "dmt agnostic" category since neither one of us is claiming to really know what the heck is going on here. So please don't take offense to anything I said, I wasn't trying to lump anyone into any categories or anything (though if the shoe fits... <wink>). Nor was I attempting to use anyone's experience with spice or lack thereof as an indication of anything, that was just for my own personal edification as Swim did not start experiencing entity contact until he started adding jungle spice into the equation, and I was just curious if this was also true for anyone else. Again just trying to be scientific...
This is exactly what it comes down to. This is what Swim deals with on a daily basis. There are two VERY different potential realities that Swim inhabits, one where his experiences are in some sense real and one where he is completely delusional. It would be good to know which one he is actually in. Like you, I am definitely not advocating blind faith... as you say, just because you saw it doesn't mean it was real. But unlike you, I am not so ready to say:
...for the simple fact that it would be horrendously UN-scientific for me to leap to such a conclusion without further investigation.
Again what's dangerous here is that word "believe."
And therefore I must question your motives for jumping to such a conclusion...
Now this is understandable. If dead relatives and such actually ARE able to contact us... this means a HUGE paradigm shift from the one we are used to living in. This goes beyond stepping outside the box, this means having one's box tossed in the shredder! The question is, are we prepared to get out of the box in time, or are we so warm and cozy in there that we're prepared to go down with it? Cuz if ANY of this IS real, we need to completely change the way we're living our lives! It's easy to say to ourselves that the only thing that's real is matter and that therefore nothing else "matters." It's a lot harder to accept the spiritual and karmic implications of there being something beyond mere physicality, as that would mean a drastic shift in our lifesytle and most of us are resistant to such things. I can only assume that's why your last post seems to have taken on a somewhat defensive tone?
Please do not misunderstand me here. I am not trying to point fingers or make anyone feel bad. As I say we are both essentially in the same camp here (dmt-agnostics). But I would very much like for us both to move into the gnostic camp, whatever that may mean... if it means accepting that it's all delusion then yeah that's important, we need to know that so we don't go around "doing what the insectoid aliens from hyperspace tell us to."
On the other hand our world seems to be spiraling rapidly toward some sort of techno-apocalypse that I feel is largely due to the fact that we ARE so engrossed in material reality that we have completely lost touch with the spiritual and karmic aspects of life that are very much real and that the entire planet is suffering the consequences of THIS delusion. Cuz ignoring something that IS real is just as delusional as believing in something that isn't.
And frankly I'd rather have a bunch of people running around beleiving in elves and spirits that aren't real, and as a consequence respecting these unreal spirits along with the nature that they tend to be associated with, which very much IS real, than saying fuck it there's no such thing as forest spirits so I may as well mow down the trees and build some suburbs and make a buck.
So I strongly feel that this is a very important debate that we're having here, and that neither side should be blown off lightly. And burnt, you've made some of the strongest cases for the "atheist" side, which I deeply respect. I'm looking at this discussion or "debate" in the same way that I look at sparring with a kung fu partner, where we're ultimately both members of the same school testing each other for the sake of strengthening each other. I hope you will see this the same way and continue to contribute as you have been doing without taking anything personally, as nothing I say is meant as an attack. And I highly value your thoughts on this matter... your scientific outlook is exactly what's needed for a worthy sparring partner IMO. And for what it's worth I too have had contact with dead relatives, as well as a whole slough of things that are quite sensitive subject matters and not at all easy to accept. But to turn away from the possibility that it may be real just because it's hard to deal with that possibility or accept the implications of it doesn't really seem like the "rational" thing to do.
Islandhome you are right about the real world being no more solid than the dmt world from one's own subjective perspective...
From the point of view of objectivity, yeah, the burden of proof lies on the subject to prove that his exerpeice is real. Yet from the point of view of the subject, the burden of proof lies on the supposed "external" world to prove that IT is real.
The only thing I can truly know is that I AM. I experience. As for the source of what I experience, it could be an external, material world... it could be that I am dreaming, I am delusional, I am a brain in a jar, I am plugged into the matrix, I am under the spell of a magician or demiurge, etc. For me to assume that material reality is any more real than hyperspace is just another unfounded dogmatic belief. All I know is that I APPEAR to be experiencing it so I may as well act as if it is real until something happens to make me think otherwise. Plenty of things have happened to make me think hyperspace is real, and plenty of things have happened to make me think otherwise. So I remain skeptical. Plenty of things have happened to make me think material reality is real, and plenty of things have happened to make me think otherwise. So again I remain skeptical.
Basically all we can do is act in a manner that is fluid with whatever situation we happen to find ourselves in at the moment. And it helps to be prepared for that to change at any time.
This morning I was running through some kind of sewer system and something was chasing me. Then I woke up. But had I quit running before I woke up, I may have had to deal with being mauled by whatever it was that was chasing me. The fact that I was dreaming wouldn't have made being mauled suck any less at the time.
Same thing with this world... I'm not convinced it's real and not just another form of dream but to avoid "having a shitty dream" I go ahead and act as if it is real so that things keep running smoothly and I don't find myself "dreaming" about being locked up in a mental institution or something. Wheather or not it actually is real is irrelevant. All that matters is that I'm experiencing it so I may as well go with the flow.
Now burnt you are right to caution people about mixing the two realities. Just because some hyperspace entity tells you to do something in this reality doesn't mean you should listen. Same thing applies to entities from so-called "real" reality... just because I tell you to do something doesn't mean you should listen either.
What if Swim tells you to extract spice with limonene instead of petroleum because it's better? Does that mean you should automatically take his word for it? Probably the best thing to do in that case is test the hypothesis for yourself.
For that matter, what if Swim isn't real?
I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it that hyperspace is real. Quite the opposite actually, as that would be just another form of blind faith. Dogmatic belief is what's really dangerous here, whether it's the belief that something IS real OR the belief that it ISN'T. What I'm encouraging here is to keep an open mind.
Brother I couldn't agree with you more. And thank you for clarifying that. I guess really both you and I would fall into the "dmt agnostic" category since neither one of us is claiming to really know what the heck is going on here. So please don't take offense to anything I said, I wasn't trying to lump anyone into any categories or anything (though if the shoe fits... <wink>). Nor was I attempting to use anyone's experience with spice or lack thereof as an indication of anything, that was just for my own personal edification as Swim did not start experiencing entity contact until he started adding jungle spice into the equation, and I was just curious if this was also true for anyone else. Again just trying to be scientific...
This is exactly what it comes down to. This is what Swim deals with on a daily basis. There are two VERY different potential realities that Swim inhabits, one where his experiences are in some sense real and one where he is completely delusional. It would be good to know which one he is actually in. Like you, I am definitely not advocating blind faith... as you say, just because you saw it doesn't mean it was real. But unlike you, I am not so ready to say:
...for the simple fact that it would be horrendously UN-scientific for me to leap to such a conclusion without further investigation.
Again what's dangerous here is that word "believe."
And therefore I must question your motives for jumping to such a conclusion...
Now this is understandable. If dead relatives and such actually ARE able to contact us... this means a HUGE paradigm shift from the one we are used to living in. This goes beyond stepping outside the box, this means having one's box tossed in the shredder! The question is, are we prepared to get out of the box in time, or are we so warm and cozy in there that we're prepared to go down with it? Cuz if ANY of this IS real, we need to completely change the way we're living our lives! It's easy to say to ourselves that the only thing that's real is matter and that therefore nothing else "matters." It's a lot harder to accept the spiritual and karmic implications of there being something beyond mere physicality, as that would mean a drastic shift in our lifesytle and most of us are resistant to such things. I can only assume that's why your last post seems to have taken on a somewhat defensive tone?
Please do not misunderstand me here. I am not trying to point fingers or make anyone feel bad. As I say we are both essentially in the same camp here (dmt-agnostics). But I would very much like for us both to move into the gnostic camp, whatever that may mean... if it means accepting that it's all delusion then yeah that's important, we need to know that so we don't go around "doing what the insectoid aliens from hyperspace tell us to."
On the other hand our world seems to be spiraling rapidly toward some sort of techno-apocalypse that I feel is largely due to the fact that we ARE so engrossed in material reality that we have completely lost touch with the spiritual and karmic aspects of life that are very much real and that the entire planet is suffering the consequences of THIS delusion. Cuz ignoring something that IS real is just as delusional as believing in something that isn't.
And frankly I'd rather have a bunch of people running around beleiving in elves and spirits that aren't real, and as a consequence respecting these unreal spirits along with the nature that they tend to be associated with, which very much IS real, than saying fuck it there's no such thing as forest spirits so I may as well mow down the trees and build some suburbs and make a buck.
So I strongly feel that this is a very important debate that we're having here, and that neither side should be blown off lightly. And burnt, you've made some of the strongest cases for the "atheist" side, which I deeply respect. I'm looking at this discussion or "debate" in the same way that I look at sparring with a kung fu partner, where we're ultimately both members of the same school testing each other for the sake of strengthening each other. I hope you will see this the same way and continue to contribute as you have been doing without taking anything personally, as nothing I say is meant as an attack. And I highly value your thoughts on this matter... your scientific outlook is exactly what's needed for a worthy sparring partner IMO. And for what it's worth I too have had contact with dead relatives, as well as a whole slough of things that are quite sensitive subject matters and not at all easy to accept. But to turn away from the possibility that it may be real just because it's hard to deal with that possibility or accept the implications of it doesn't really seem like the "rational" thing to do.
Agreed thats mainly why swim comes here and rants on endlessly about it
Obviously its been on swims mind more then once. More to come..
olderROM
Alfred
Why isn't the scientific establishment tackling such questions? Probably because psychedelic drugs are extremely taboo, they are mainly only used in the field of psychology, and hard science generally doesn't touch such subjective matters. There is no place in the sciences for these questions....
I am going to school to further 'the cause' and help further our understandings of chemicals like DMT. We here are DMT-Nexus and people in similar groups are the future. The establishment will not touch these topics with a 10 foot pole and yet I feel that the questions the spice compound raises for me happen to be some of the most important questions I have ever had raised. Who is going to address these questions?
Even though we don't have any 'real' legitimacy here. My own personal laboratory and others like it have ground legitimacy... We are going to have to be the ones who grow up and step up. We have to run our own show. We have to be professional and intelligent. I would like to be able to run some legitimate underground studies sometime in the future. Most likely in the area of chemisty... I think that is the only real area that I could contribute definite knowledge in.
I can't even begin to contemplate a method for attempting to show evidence that DMT space isn't real... or show evidence that it is... the biggest question seems 'untackel-able'.
I am going to school to further 'the cause' and help further our understandings of chemicals like DMT. We here are DMT-Nexus and people in similar groups are the future. The establishment will not touch these topics with a 10 foot pole and yet I feel that the questions the spice compound raises for me happen to be some of the most important questions I have ever had raised. Who is going to address these questions?
Even though we don't have any 'real' legitimacy here. My own personal laboratory and others like it have ground legitimacy... We are going to have to be the ones who grow up and step up. We have to run our own show. We have to be professional and intelligent. I would like to be able to run some legitimate underground studies sometime in the future. Most likely in the area of chemisty... I think that is the only real area that I could contribute definite knowledge in.
I can't even begin to contemplate a method for attempting to show evidence that DMT space isn't real... or show evidence that it is... the biggest question seems 'untackel-able'.
^^Well I must say my friend that you are not alone. Not at all. I recommend you take a look at our scientific article section to learn about some of the latest and past research into dmt. Although politically and socially some of these issues are somewhat taboo that does not mean they are not being researched. Research is going on and it will only grow the more scientists like you and many others get involved in it. You don't have to be underground forever and you are not the only one fighting for the right to do such work.
My personal advice if you want to get more involved in this research as you continue your studies is don't act like you are studying these substances because you like to use them but to act like you are studying these substances for helping people with mental or physical illness or for merely the pursuit of truth. It makes you seem more legit and dedicated to something that is in all honesty noble.
That being said science is a long way from deeply tackling issues such as entity contact but is well on its way to tackling issues related to why these substances exist in the human body and how they can effect human consciousness and perceptions.
My personal advice if you want to get more involved in this research as you continue your studies is don't act like you are studying these substances because you like to use them but to act like you are studying these substances for helping people with mental or physical illness or for merely the pursuit of truth. It makes you seem more legit and dedicated to something that is in all honesty noble.
That being said science is a long way from deeply tackling issues such as entity contact but is well on its way to tackling issues related to why these substances exist in the human body and how they can effect human consciousness and perceptions.
SoCal
Rising Star
the whole thing really is just mind-blowingly fascinating and as this thread attests, it really has a way of making people stop and THINK. SWIM definitely feels like something very powerful is going on, but is still a bit of an open slate at this point. I am extremely grateful for this forum.
An analogy:
The caterpillar spent most of his existence struggling to survive, and only thinking of his immediate needs. The caterpillar struggled for existence against many predators, and the caterpillar was unable to see past the few leaves in front of him. The caterpillar could not imagine what it would be like to be a butterfly soaring in the wind, and seeing the beauty of everything around him. The caterpillar could not see the true beauty of the world, because the caterpillar was in the dense vegetation, struggling to survive.
How could the caterpillar even begin to imagine, what the butterfly sees? If the caterpillar had a vision. If the caterpillar understood what was going to happen. If the caterpillar knew that there was going to be a metamorphous. If the caterpillar knew that he would one day glide on the wind. If the caterpillar knew that he would one day soar above the world. If the caterpillar knew that he would one day see beauty which he could not imagine. If the caterpillar knew that he would spend the rest of his days going from one beautiful flower to the next. Could the caterpillar really imagine what this new existence would be like?
If the caterpillar told the other caterpillars what was going to happen, most of the other caterpillars would think that the caterpillar was going insane. Most of the other caterpillars could not even begin to conceive that what they were told was possible. Would any of this mean that what was going to happen to each caterpillar, was not real? Would it simply mean that the other caterpillars were not ready to know the truth?
When the caterpillar first created his cocoon, the caterpillar did not know what was happening. The caterpillar was still attached to the caterpillar's old world, but the caterpillar was no longer a part of the caterpillar's old world. The caterpillar was closed off from the caterpillar's old world, but the caterpillar was not ready to enter the caterpillar's new world.
The caterpillar constructed his cocoon from all of the accumulated rubbish from the caterpillar's existence. This is what the caterpillar must discard before the caterpillar can become the butterfly.
The metamorphous which the caterpillar must undergo to transform from the caterpillar into the butterfly is very painful, but unless the caterpillar endures the metamorphous, the caterpillar cannot become the butterfly. The caterpillar has no idea what to expect when the process is complete. As the metamorphous progresses, the caterpillar slowly starts to understand what it is happening. However, the caterpillar has difficulty believing what is occurring, despite the wings which are forming.
After the caterpillar's metamorphous is completed, and the caterpillar has become a butterfly, the butterfly is still in the cocoon. Regardless of how hard the butterfly tries, the butterfly cannot possibly fly until the butterfly first discards the cocoon. Before the butterfly can fly, the butterfly must force it's way out of the cocoon, which takes some effort.
One day, the butterfly breaks out of it's cocoon and soars off into it's new world, leaving an empty shell behind.
The butterfly looked back and remembered how he once believed that the leaves in the butterfly's old world were the most important things in the universe. The butterfly recalled that he had worried about which caterpillar had the juiciest leaf, and whether the leaves would always be there. The butterfly now knew how insignificant the leaves really were. The butterfly now saw the trees and knew that there were other trees. The butterfly now saw all of the trees, and so much more. The butterfly saw things that the butterfly had never known existed, and could not have conceived.
The butterfly could not understand why he had believed that the insignificant leaves on a single tree had been so important. However, without those insignificant leaves, the caterpillar could not have sustained itself, and grown to become the butterfly.
The butterfly lands on the flower of a tree. The same tree that the butterfly had lived on as the caterpillar. The butterfly carries pollen to another flower, to fertilise the seed, which will fall to the ground and grow into a tree for caterpillars to live on.
Do four butterflies gliding around a meadow of flowers know that they were the same four caterpillars that lived together on a single branch? If the four butterflies do not know that they were the same four caterpillars that lived together on a single branch, does it mean that the four butterflies were not once four caterpillars that lived together on a branch?
When the four caterpillars lived together on the branch, could any of the four caterpillars have conceived that the four caterpillars would one day be four butterflies gliding around a beautiful meadow, or even that the meadow existed?
How many centuries did it take for us to discover that the caterpillar and the butterfly were the same entity? We spend most of our lifetimes like a caterpillar struggling to survive, and only thinking of our immediate needs. The metamorphous which we undergo is extremely painful, but unless we endure the metamorphous, we will remain as caterpillars. When we live with our souls, we are like a butterfly, gliding above the ground and enjoying the true beauty of the world.
The caterpillar spent most of his existence struggling to survive, and only thinking of his immediate needs. The caterpillar struggled for existence against many predators, and the caterpillar was unable to see past the few leaves in front of him. The caterpillar could not imagine what it would be like to be a butterfly soaring in the wind, and seeing the beauty of everything around him. The caterpillar could not see the true beauty of the world, because the caterpillar was in the dense vegetation, struggling to survive.
How could the caterpillar even begin to imagine, what the butterfly sees? If the caterpillar had a vision. If the caterpillar understood what was going to happen. If the caterpillar knew that there was going to be a metamorphous. If the caterpillar knew that he would one day glide on the wind. If the caterpillar knew that he would one day soar above the world. If the caterpillar knew that he would one day see beauty which he could not imagine. If the caterpillar knew that he would spend the rest of his days going from one beautiful flower to the next. Could the caterpillar really imagine what this new existence would be like?
If the caterpillar told the other caterpillars what was going to happen, most of the other caterpillars would think that the caterpillar was going insane. Most of the other caterpillars could not even begin to conceive that what they were told was possible. Would any of this mean that what was going to happen to each caterpillar, was not real? Would it simply mean that the other caterpillars were not ready to know the truth?
When the caterpillar first created his cocoon, the caterpillar did not know what was happening. The caterpillar was still attached to the caterpillar's old world, but the caterpillar was no longer a part of the caterpillar's old world. The caterpillar was closed off from the caterpillar's old world, but the caterpillar was not ready to enter the caterpillar's new world.
The caterpillar constructed his cocoon from all of the accumulated rubbish from the caterpillar's existence. This is what the caterpillar must discard before the caterpillar can become the butterfly.
The metamorphous which the caterpillar must undergo to transform from the caterpillar into the butterfly is very painful, but unless the caterpillar endures the metamorphous, the caterpillar cannot become the butterfly. The caterpillar has no idea what to expect when the process is complete. As the metamorphous progresses, the caterpillar slowly starts to understand what it is happening. However, the caterpillar has difficulty believing what is occurring, despite the wings which are forming.
After the caterpillar's metamorphous is completed, and the caterpillar has become a butterfly, the butterfly is still in the cocoon. Regardless of how hard the butterfly tries, the butterfly cannot possibly fly until the butterfly first discards the cocoon. Before the butterfly can fly, the butterfly must force it's way out of the cocoon, which takes some effort.
One day, the butterfly breaks out of it's cocoon and soars off into it's new world, leaving an empty shell behind.
The butterfly looked back and remembered how he once believed that the leaves in the butterfly's old world were the most important things in the universe. The butterfly recalled that he had worried about which caterpillar had the juiciest leaf, and whether the leaves would always be there. The butterfly now knew how insignificant the leaves really were. The butterfly now saw the trees and knew that there were other trees. The butterfly now saw all of the trees, and so much more. The butterfly saw things that the butterfly had never known existed, and could not have conceived.
The butterfly could not understand why he had believed that the insignificant leaves on a single tree had been so important. However, without those insignificant leaves, the caterpillar could not have sustained itself, and grown to become the butterfly.
The butterfly lands on the flower of a tree. The same tree that the butterfly had lived on as the caterpillar. The butterfly carries pollen to another flower, to fertilise the seed, which will fall to the ground and grow into a tree for caterpillars to live on.
Do four butterflies gliding around a meadow of flowers know that they were the same four caterpillars that lived together on a single branch? If the four butterflies do not know that they were the same four caterpillars that lived together on a single branch, does it mean that the four butterflies were not once four caterpillars that lived together on a branch?
When the four caterpillars lived together on the branch, could any of the four caterpillars have conceived that the four caterpillars would one day be four butterflies gliding around a beautiful meadow, or even that the meadow existed?
How many centuries did it take for us to discover that the caterpillar and the butterfly were the same entity? We spend most of our lifetimes like a caterpillar struggling to survive, and only thinking of our immediate needs. The metamorphous which we undergo is extremely painful, but unless we endure the metamorphous, we will remain as caterpillars. When we live with our souls, we are like a butterfly, gliding above the ground and enjoying the true beauty of the world.