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The case against Elves

Migrated topic.
People often ask me to prove to them subjective reality is real. These requests stem from the desire to shoehorn subjective reality into a pre-existing objective framework, while within the framework of subjective reality itself, they make little sense because the proof only manifests as a result of the belief.

Subjective reality is a belief system — a perspective. It is no more real or unreal than objective reality, which is also nothing but a perspective. How do you prove a perspective? That question doesn’t make much sense, since your particular perception of reality depends on your perspective. In truth the best way to discern a perspective’s accuracy is to experience it from both the inside and the outside. To do anything less means you’ll succumb to too many blind spots. I’ve never felt comfortable about adopting a specific belief unless I’ve personally experienced that belief as well as its opposite. For example, at one point in my life I genuinely believed all psychic phenomena was total bunk. At another point in my life I believed much of it was real. I even went back and forth between these beliefs a few times. When I had racked up enough experience on both sides, I had enough clarity to pick the belief that was most accurate and empowering for me. Others may go through this process and make the opposite choice from me, which is perfectly fine.

Subjective reality is one of those belief systems I experienced from the inside and the outside. Ultimately I found the inside perspective to be significantly more accurate and empowering. Again, I don’t expect everyone will share this opinion. Just because it works for me doesn’t mean it will work for you.
 
My physics professor at my university told me this, after about 15 years as a physics professor, and traveling overseas to the amazon and different areas and also studying different hallucinogenic plants, including "ayahuasca""

Believing you’re nothing more than a human body in a world that’s out of your control is an inherently limiting perspective, ultimately one that’s rooted in fear. You’re free to place such limitations on your life, but when you do so, you’re essentially saying, “Let me be less than I am.” And after living this way for so long, you begin to accept it as reality, even though it’s a reality you’ve created from a place of fear and contraction. The alternative is to create from a place of joy and expansion, but this level of creation is not available to you as long as you cling to the belief that you’re “just a body.”
 
DMTtripn2Space said:
Believing you’re nothing more than a human body in a world that’s out of your control is an inherently limiting perspective, ultimately one that’s rooted in fear. You’re free to place such limitations on your life, but when you do so, you’re essentially saying, “Let me be less than I am.” And after living this way for so long, you begin to accept it as reality, even though it’s a reality you’ve created from a place of fear and contraction. The alternative is to create from a place of joy and expansion, but this level of creation is not available to you as long as you cling to the belief that you’re “just a body.”

AMEN!
 
Such a great analogy, the caterpillar/butterfly parable... yeah a lot of people seem to require a sort of "cocoon" phase before becoming psychicly aware. Like a sort of psychotic break, or a psychological metamorphosis that is -mistaken- for a psychotic break.

That's another danger I see in society not recognizing what's going on in these individuals... ever see a caterpillar that didn't make it? That got stuck in the "cocoon" and couldn't get out? It happens. It ain't pretty.

I've got a friend who had a mushroom trip that opened his third eye, but he was alone and wasn't able to handle it. Society didn't help him out with the integration of the experience. Instead they put him on a dopamine antagonist. For those of you unfamiliar with psychology, all this does is basically inhibit the neural mechanisms that could potentially allow him to "break on thru to the other side" of his metamorphosis. It didn't -reverse- the metamorphosis, he's still crazy... he just doesn't have enough energy or motivation to be a nuisance to society with his craziness. He just spends most of his time on the couch at home being crazy now. Swim has tried a few times to get him into a ceremony, but he's so convinced that he's crazy and that "psychedelic drugs made him crazy" that he's not willing to give it a shot. Not like he has anything to lose at this point... it's really sad, to see that he's given into other peoples' definition of him. He IS crazy now because he believes he is. He takes his resperidol and spouts off insane psychobabble and that's about it. Oh yeah and he regularly displays psychic phenomena all the time but just doesn't have a constructive way to channel it. So many times while he's been spouting off insane psychobabble he's commented on things or events going on in my life, or thoughts that I've had, that he couldn't POSSIBLY have known about. But none of his shrinks spend enough time with him to notice any of that, they just talk to him for five minutes and perscribe some pill for a chemical imbalance that they haven't even tested him for, that may or may not even be there, like they could somehow know after talking with him for just five minutes. And even if there is a chemical imbalance there, who's to say if it's the cause of his strange behavior or just a symptom of his altered perceptual state (Cf. my example above of a person in a world of blind people suddenly developing sight). So many "schizophrenics" display these unusual psychic abilities... but so few people take the time to notice. It's so much easier to just write them off as being "crazy" and that's that, you never have to think about the deeper implications of "just what the hell does that mean anyway?

Based on observations like these, I've come up with the following model:

There's basically three different states of consciousness: Schizophrenia, Uniphrenia, and Somniphrenia.

Somniphrenia is the state we all start out in, a sort of sleeper state, the caterpillar state if you will. In this state our consciousness is divided, but we are unaware of it so we think we're normal, and since most people are in this state, it seems normal by the common definition even though this state is actually horribly insane.

Schizophrenia is when we start to awaken. This is the coccoon stage wherein we start to become aware of our divided nature, but don't know how to deal with this new awareness. Proper set and setting is required for a successful metamorphosis, at which point we (hopefully) enter into:

Uniphrenia, where we learn to control our new awareness and realize we are all one. To a somniphrenic, a uniphrenic talks crazy talk about psychic phenomena, spirits, and how we're all one, etc. The difference is they are totally calm and rational about it. For the schizophrenic, their heightened awareness leads only into further and further states of division, separating them from themselves and everyone else; for the uniphrenic, their experience leads to a newfound state of unification and healing. They become happier, healthier, and generally much cooler to be around than they were before they had their little "psychotic break." This person goes on to become the "mystic" or "guru" or "shaman" or any number of other terms applied to people who are by society's definition still "crazy" in their idealogies but are completely capable of functioning in society, often better than so-called "normal" people except for the fact that they don't quite fit in amongst all the somniphrenics.

That caterpillar analogy works on a collective scale as well... apparently when the catpillar is undergoing metamorphosis, the old caterpillar cells actually react violently to the new butterfly cells and try to kill them. The butterfly cells however, instead of fighting back, practice a form of non-violent reistance... they simply continue to grow and multiply, and just go on doing their thing until eventually they outnumber the caterpillar cells to the point where the old ones just give up the fight and embrace the coming of the New Way.

That gives us something to look forward to eh?

Even though we don't have any 'real' legitimacy here. My own personal laboratory and others like it have ground legitimacy... We are going to have to be the ones who grow up and step up. We have to run our own show. We have to be professional and intelligent. I would like to be able to run some legitimate underground studies sometime in the future. Most likely in the area of chemisty... I think that is the only real area that I could contribute definite knowledge in.

So I've been having this thought for awhile now... maybe I should suggest it in its own thread... why not have a section for our own "underground" report writeups, for those of us who actually know how to write a formatted journal article? This would be something you would actually have to submit to and have it peer-reviewed in order to be accepted. I like this idea because we're not bound by the same limitations of "publish or perish," etc., that normal acedimic scientists are, and we aren't bound by the limitations of any particular commercial journal trying to appeal to its audience or be politically correct or whatever. We're just a community of like minded people supporting each other's interests. This would also encourage more scientific experimentation on our behalf, instead of the semiscientific investigations that so often get posted on here that are indeed helpful but never seem to come to any real conclusions, or if they do you have to scour thru all these posts to find 'em.

Let's take a step up here people and take those scientific reins in our own hands! Fuck waiting for the mainstream to catch up! Whaddaya say?

Agreed thats mainly why SWIM comes here and rants on endlessly about it Obviously its been on swims mind more then once. More to come..

Heck yeah brother, lookin' forward to it! Like you Swim hardly ever smokes dmt, maybe only a few times a year, but he thinks about it all the friggin' time! Finally, something he thinks about more often than sex! :lol:
 
hello,

great thread,

im a noob,

obviously.

i liked these bits best.

Complexity breeds all kinds of weird shit, and the human brain is the most complex system on the planet.

The way I've come to see it, all reality exists in my head, including my head.

There is no we, there is only experience and the experience of experience


Here's an interesting thing to consider:
Once upon a time in SWIM's yacht in international waters, himself and five other people were kickin' it. One person had never smoked dmt before, so they decided to turn him on. He smoked it, and when he looked at everyone else, their heads turned into dicks. He then went out in the back yard and puked (SWIM's got a really nice yacht, complete with back yard), after which he was fine and everything returned to normal.
Now obviously our heads didn't really turn into dicks. This was the guy's subjective reality, not concensus reality.

But what if two people both smoked DMT and both saw the remaining four people's heads turn into dicks? Then it's not so clearly subjective any more... we now have a discrepency in concensus.

Let's take this even further... what if everyone but SWIM had smoked dmt, and they all saw SWIM's head turn into a dick? SWIM would then be the only person who didn't think he was a dickhead. Now where's concensus reality?

What if a hundred people smoked, and SWIM was the only one who thought he wasn't a dickhead? Then SWIM would be the crazy one!

The only "definitive truth" for Buddhism is the absolute negation of any one truth as the Definitive Truth.

Everything you do could always be explained by both ways of looking at it. They BOTH have to remain true at the same time, for each one to be possible to be true.


the only thang that i have not done in hyper space is use the rest room
may be thats what the big diffrence is
you get to um go # one and number 2 here
so i guess thats the big one there
its not real unless you can crap on it

:lol:

Wheather or not it actually is real is irrelevant. All that matters is that I'm experiencing it so I may as well go with the flow.

haha..SWIM learned a long time ago..that he is completely fucking nuts..and then he smoked dmt..and found out he really was

One day, the butterfly breaks out of it's cocoon and soars off into it's new world, leaving an empty shell behind.

and then the butterfly got eaten by a bird and pooed out.
sorry, im quite immature.
most of that stuff made me smile like a crazy person.
 
On a side note...I have learned ever so much from the grateful, intelligent people on this forum and especially this thread!

I tend to argue on a metaphysical/subjective/philisophical side, but thats just me. And if we were still like our ancestors back in the early times of this earth, we would have nothing to rely on besides our own intuition and close observation and calculation of different cycles,trial and error,etc. I understand technology is basically an extension of ourselves to better our understanding of everything around us, but at the same time it comes down to US..the individual. Because in the end, all we have is ourself to rely on. And if these sacred texts (such as the Tibetan book of the Dead) and different literary texts that date thousands of years back hold any merit then why not be in tune with your higher self (or whatever you would like to call it)?

I'm not saying any of those texts are true, i'm just stating that it is possible, like anytthing else.
I'm telling you, the Buddhists have it right! :idea:
 
Wow, The "Case against Elves" Turned into the "Case against reality". I'm reading some good stuff here and it'll be good brain food for later events. Right now I'm reading Kira Salak's "Hell and Back". Great article. Help's me understand how ayahuasca and DMT are healers. I learn more everyday. I'm glad I found this place. My brain hasn't been stimulated like this In about two years. Instead of spiraling into alcoholism like I was I've taken to learning. Hell, I'm actually reading books again. Thanks guys.
 
On another side note..heres an actual translation from a tibetan buddhist monk regarding the meanings behind the TBOTD:

1. That all possible conditions, or states, or realms of sangsaric existence, heavens, hells, and worlds, are entirely dependent upon phenomena, or, in other words, are nought but phenomena.

2. That all phenomena are transistory, are illusionary, are unreal, and non existent save in the sangsaric mind perceiving them.

3. That in reality there are no such beings anywhere as gods, or demons, or spirits, or sentinent creatures-all alike being phenomena dependent upon a cause.

4. That this cause is a yearning or thirsting after sensation, after the unstable sangsaric existence.

5. That so long as this cause is not overcome by enlightment death follows birth and birth death, unceasingly-even as the wise Socrates believed;

6. That the after-death existense is but a continuation, under changed conditions, of the phenomena-born existence of the human world-both states alike being karmic

7. That the nature of the existence intervening between death and rebirth in this or any other world is determined by antecedent actions;

8. That psychologically speaking, it is a prolonged dream-like state, i nwhat may be called the fourth dimension of space, filled with hallucinatory visions and beings directly resultant from the mental-content of the percipient, happy and heaven-like if the karma is good, or miserable and hell-like if the karma be bad.
 
My god, to even ask these kinds of questions shows some insight that probably 99% of the sheeple of the world don't even perceive.

Is there a consensus of where the world is heading as far as awakenings or any plans the elves/entities have for this "reality"?
 
I think the world is heading into another cycle of revolution. It's been a good run but the powers that be are corrupt and failing us and the world economies are starting to slip. Maybe things will hold on and get better, or maybe we will follow the pattern that we always have and the people will say no more. But hopefully the elves and aliens will come save us and show us a world without money. Although that would send my grandpa's coin business into the shitter, lol.
 
Heres a little more subjective food for thought visualdistortion :) :

Unless enlightment be won, rebirth in the human world, directly from the Bardo-world or from any other world or from any paradise or hell to which karma has led, is inevitable. Enlightment results from realizing the unreality of the sangsara (or in other words..existense). That such realizing is possible in the human world, or at the important moment of death in the human world, or during the whole of the after death or "Bardo state", or in certain of the non human, non objective, nontangible realms. Training in meditation or yoga, i.e. in control of the thinking processes so as to be able to concentrate the mind in an effort to reach Right Knowledge, is essential. The goal is and only can be Emancipation from the sangsara. That such realization comes from the realization of nirvana. That nirvana is non-sangsaric, being beyond all parameters, paradises, heavens, hells, and worlds. That it is the Ending of sorrow. That it is reality.

Once again i AM NOT saying this is completely 100% true. But i definitely think it holds merit regardless of tnagible,objective evidence.
 
What if SWIM tells you to extract spice with limonene instead of petroleum because it's better? Does that mean you should automatically take his word for it? Probably the best thing to do in that case is test the hypothesis for yourself.

This has everything to do with chemistry and absolutely nothing to do with plant spirits. Limonene gets into the brain and exerts effects it has a number of biologically interesting activities (an antidepressent effect is one of them). So if you smoke dmt with limonene you are taking two substances not one. If you smoke dmt with petroleum residue (a significant amount of residue) you may get a queezy sick headache feeling. The same goes for when you smoke jungle spice. You are most likely taking a mixture of substances that alter the effects of the dmt.


I can't see how anyone can logically say that the dmt experience is more real then reality. Or that dreams are more real then reality. You can die in reality you can be physically harmed. In dreams and in dmt worlds you cannot be physically harmed. You can be tramatized or made ecstatic which can and that does in cases cause physical changes. But the physical changes I am talking about are taking place in the brain, receptor expression levels can change, metabolic regulations can change. Its not something spiritual going on at all. If you take dmt it effects your emotions in a profound way and if these you are flooded with good emotions your brain can learn something new make new connections and pathways and thereby lift someone out of a psychological issue such as a depression or some neurotic behavior pattern.

This is not a spiritual phenomenon! Nothing is. Not one single thing ever in the history of scientific pursuit has uncovered any real evidence that spirit exists. Many things were explained off as spirit in the past but time and time again science has figured out there underlying mechanisms. Yet people still continue to reject science and except superstitious explanations for so many experiences in their lives. Psychedelic drugs and mystical experiences are one of those phenomenon. Science has found evidence that both experiences are related to chemical changes taking place in the brain a change in our perceptions of reality. There is no evidence at all that any kind of spiritual change or entity contact is really happening. All your emotions have been shown to be effected and induced by the chemical and electrical state of your brain.

Unless enlightment be won, rebirth in the human world, directly from the Bardo-world or from any other world or from any paradise or hell to which karma has led, is inevitable. Enlightment results from realizing the unreality of the sangsara (or in other words..existense). That such realizing is possible in the human world, or at the important moment of death in the human world, or during the whole of the after death or "Bardo state", or in certain of the non human, non objective, nontangible realms. Training in meditation or yoga, i.e. in control of the thinking processes so as to be able to concentrate the mind in an effort to reach Right Knowledge, is essential. The goal is and only can be Emancipation from the sangsara. That such realization comes from the realization of nirvana. That nirvana is non-sangsaric, being beyond all parameters, paradises, heavens, hells, and worlds. That it is the Ending of sorrow. That it is reality.

Once again i AM NOT saying this is completely 100% true. But i definitely think it holds merit regardless of tnagible,objective evidence.

Its not true at all. At least there is not a single shred of conclusive evidence to indicate it is. Just because buddhist monks wrote down some book about what they think happens when human beings die doesn't mean they are correct. There is nothing in this world to show that they are anywhere near being correct. The only positive thing to come out of the whole idea is it gives people a way to relax and feel physically and emotionally better about it when they do. Whether that relaxation takes place in the form of meditation or yoga doesn't make much of a difference. These again are not spiritual phenomenon. Nothing is.

And all this talk about reality being an illusion must be settled. There is a real world out there. The fact that you and I are here talking about it attests to that. We have evolved to see that world in a very different way then lets say a jellyfish at the bottom of an oceanic trench. All this buddhist stuff that claims its all an illusion is based on an interpretation about what happens during a mystical experience that was not based on facts and science but religious tradition. Religious tradition is founded on nothing but faith and faith proves nothing. Don't read all these stupid books out there that say quantum mechanics proves what the buddhists were right or that spirit is real or that your entire life is an illusion. Quantum mechanics explains whats going on in our real universe at the subatomic level but in a way that is so complex and counter intuitive that no single human being really understands what it means. But that doesn't mean that it means that spirituality and dmt elves are real. That connection is completely unfounded and only based on a connection between poetic language of the ancients and the metaphors used by the pioneers of quantum theory to try to explain just how weird quantum theory is.

Finally I would like to conclude by stating I firmly do not believe any of this entity contact is real. If some real evidence comes up to indicate that it is real and spirits are real and may exist then perhaps I will be forced to change my mind. But no amount of subjective psychedelic experiences can ever prove that. No matter how much we all wish it could. It cannot. When you contact entities under the influence of psychoactive drugs you are either fulfilling some deep psychological desire for such things to exist and give your life meaning or your brain is trying to tell you something about whats going on in your life much like dreams do. There is nothing to show otherwise and until I see something beyond all this pseudo scientific spirit based belief system to show that it is real I see no reason anyone should believe it is.

This non scientific attitude amongst drug users seriously disturbs me. The non scientific attitude's about alternative medicine seriously disturbs me. It shows that people are willing to believe in anything to satisfy something deep within themselves sometimes out of very real desperation. This need is something that can so easily be used against individuals by those who wish to either profit off of them or control them.

Psychedelics have a useful place in society. They are capable of allowing people to solve very complex problems in their lives that they normally would not have been able to so quickly understand. They can be fun and rewarding. They can show one the beauty of nature and reveal the magnificence of this beautiful world. But they should never be used as a tool to enhance unreal and unfounded beliefs. I do not think that everyone should go on running around believing in lies about forest spirits or gods because it will make the world a better place. People should want to make the world a better place because of a reasonable understanding that we depend on each other and other forms of life for our survival and pleasure.
 
Once again,I have stated that everything im posting is not to be taken as believeable and 100% true. I'm just stating points and information that i've read over the years. Take it as you will. Everything cannot be explained by sciene and quantom physics. All i'm saying is we will never know everything, and theres alot we have to learn. Science and quantum physics have discovered alot of great things, especially in the past few years. I am not rejecting science,but merely stating my opinions, and the opinions of others.

And i am not condoning or saying that buddhism is completely right but it makes alot of great points, just about life in general.

Peace and Love
 
I agree with alot of what you have said burnt and alot of it I have thought for a long time. But I do like to ponder the upper realms. Maybe my interest in what is "beyond" stems from my being very religious not to many years ago. But in truth we know very very little about the universe and reality. But we do have a reality that can be observed and tested. It is truly real in the sense that we can bring our body along with our mind to observe and act upon this reality. But if someone believe reality is totally subjective and "nothing is real" that's alright if it helps them live more happily, because that's really what it's all about. Just because we haven't proved the presence of a spirit it doesn't mean that we don't have one and vise versa. I really tend to lean towards the "scientific" side but I really have a very "spiritual" side to me that I can't surpress. I'm just trying to strike a balance between the two.
 
I think we DO bring intelligence and information back from the 'communication' we make, only our conscious mind never gets a chance to perceive it, perhaps because it is just too complex.

I feel it's a downloading of information, it's very real, and for people to fall try back on a scientific explanation using a drug's effect on the nervous system... pooey, go read 50 different books of science and tell me if any of the great minds agree on much. They don't. It's all hypothesis after a point of common understanding, which remains quite low on the chain.

From a biological prospective, the complexities of dna and rna and so beyond our understanding at this present moment, you'd have to believe evolution is responsible for all of our higher organizing and communications - but where is the necessity of it? Darwinism requires need to survive and surely there is so much we humans do that is unncessary. Why did we evolve this way? There is no scientific answer to that.

You can say we don't die in dreams, but I'm not entirely sure this is true. Certainly i've had repetitive dreams in which I existed in a continuous environment that for some reason or other I ceased to have after some years or months. I may have died in that reality.

Mental illness is abound in north america. Worthy of scientific explanation? You're going to fall back on measurements and experiments? or more concisely and absolutely are you going to describe it as a sickness of the soul. You can talk about atoms and hormones all you want, i'll look at the entire system, that includes the immaterial and imperceptible.
 
Cool I see what your all saying and respect your input and thoughts (despite all my ranting and raving 😉 ). I wish it was as easy for me to accept some of the things I have seen as real. But that's just how I am. Anyway I think I have gone as far as I'd like in this conversation.

The only times when I feel like I'm actually pursuing anything in these psychedelic realms is when I accept these entities on a level of real manifestations. Otherwise I'll just become surrounded by negative energy trying to fight off whatever is to come of the experience. I agree with this 100%, but on a level of trust, I cannot delve into these things without knowing what I'm looking for.

Maybe that's been SWIMs problem lately. SWIM has been puzzling so much over whats real and whats not whenever SWIM trips that it winds up making the whole experience seem like a mental argument rather then something useful. SWIM has had a mental block with tripping lately and maybe this is all what its coming down too.
 
well its good that we can have these two(or more) perspectives to look at...there must be a balance of these thoughts while dabbling in the things SWIWe do..its not healthy or useful to think we know what is truly going on here..all we can do is make guesses...but i think conversations like this really make people look at both sides..and then make their own decision from there..based on all ideas
 
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