The FASA Method: A Summary - DMT Fumarate and Beyond

[monkeyboy]

k- so should one bother with a wash of their STB product using this method? Will bits of water/basified muck from a sloppy separation cause problems with this technique?

Yes, they will. It may make a mess actually. On the otherhand, separating layers is pretty much an elementary skill to learn, it would be generally assumed that one does not have a sloppy separation to begin with!

SWIM's FOAF does not want to know how things could turn out in such a case. If water is present in the xylene/toluene, then the dmt fumarate will be dissolved into it. And since the water will most likely be basified with NaOH, some of the dmt fumarate will be freebased and hide inside the xylene/toluene. Any way one tries to see it, bad separation just asks for unnecessary trouble. Just get only the solvent out, it's easier!

Re to the first question, the STB dmt-fumarate product can be washed with clean acetone, just to remove any residual lipid impurities, and any xylene/toluene.

Hahaha That 'skill' of whick swiy speaks... believe its called "patience"

Swim has had to deal with ghetto equiptment this time around... poking holes in plastic containers and such- there are logistical considerations to deal with

 

[Entropymancer]

Poking holes? Why? Is there something wrong with simple decanting?

 

[Faust]

The eCrater link for cheap ($3) Fumaric acid is down and all of the links via Google Shopping (Froogle) that use eCrater.

Is there an alternate source for making FASA on the cheap?
fumaric acid - Filter Results

 

[geeg30]

Cheap Fumaric acid going up on ebay UK within next few days

 

[Ethnochemist]

If one were to use NaOH during the A/B extraction step, would the acetone washes of the fumarates wash out the leftover NaOH? (That might be in the Xylene).

If not, swim will probably use sodium carbonate.

E.C.

 

[Infundibulum]

The myth of NAOH going to the xylene is something that should finally stop!

But still, lets assume that NAOH does go to the xylene;

FASA will salt out the alkaloids and it will also convert NaOH to the harmless salt sodium fumarate. This will also fall out of the xylene/acetone mixture along with dmt fumarate. During the acetone washes the neutralised form of NaOH (i.e. sodium fumarate) will not wash away. But it will be left out when someone freebases the fumarates.

But all these things would never happen in the first place since NaOH would not be present in the xylene. Unless one carries over some of the basic solution which is a bad bad bad thing to do if one wants to go FASA.

Hope that helps!

 

[prey]

Hi there.

You bring up a good point.

If you look for example at how they produce canola oil it is a lot like DMT, hehe.

First they macerate the canola seeds, then cover them in hexane. The hexane absorbs all of the oil, plus some impurities. Next NaOH is added to precipitate out unwanted material that was carried over! This is filtered, and finally the hexane is evaporated off, leaving pure canola oil.

Is there NaOH in canola oil? No.

 

[Ethnochemist]

Thanks for the info.

SWIM just wasn't sure if Xylene was like Naphtha, swim read that water is very very slightly miscible in naphtha...swim wasn't sure if this was the case with Xylene. Thanks for clarifying.

E.C.

 

[rellik]

Is it possible that FASA precipitations directly from xylene MHRB pulls are dropping other inactive alks such as NMT, tryptamine, etc?

looking at ron69's post in the bufo thread of xlogp for NMT it is between DMT N-Oxide and DMT. Could edit: (xylene be pulling NMT and may) this be one of the reasons why oral DMT dosages vary so much?
I guess this isnt FASA specific and could apply to evaped xylene pulls but those usually result in a sticky product not often used for oral doses.

just some rough thoughts that came to mind earlier today as i have had varying experiences using similar fumarate dosages from different xylene pulls and similar MAOI quantities. Though this may be attributed to body chemistry variations also.

disclamer: these speculations may be completly wrong

 

[logos2012]

What is a good way one would "incubate in a warm place"? How warm does it have to be? Could somebody put the solution in a jar and just give heat baths and mix around every once in a while?

What would be some good measurements for the citric acid Acetone and the fumaric acid Acetone if someone was to do 100 grams bark?

How much less toxic are the fumes from Acetone compared to Naptha or Bestine?

 

[Jorkest]

acetone, bestine > xylene acetone and bestine are not bad compared to xylene..xylene is wicked stinky..but acetone and bestine arent too bad...bestine is sorta nice..and acetone has such a lovely smell

 

[Captu4ik]

Wowwee !!!! SWIM has about 10 lb.s of 'Big Medicine' to extract, and this sounds like the ticket! SWIM was going to do a STB, pull with Xylene, then try salting with Citric Acid, basifying with NaOh, etc., but this sounds like a better way to go. So far, Phalaris has been hard to process in any great quantity because so much de-fatting was involved, but this TEK should rectify that (and more).

Thanks everyone for your work, it is greatly appreciated. I shall report back SWIM's efforts when his acid arrives -- Ed.

 

[Faust]

How many mg total of Fumaric Acid powder will SWIM need to follow the Citric Acid Tek mentioned in the first post?

When using 1kg or 2.2lbs of powder bark.

A Safer DMT Extraction - No Lye, No Naphtha

For one thing, it inspired a DMT extraction that doesn't require any lye or hydrocarbon solvents (like naphtha, toluene, etc.). This tek uses only citric acid, fumaric acid, acetone, sodium carbonate, and water. This makes it much safer for the layman than playing with strong lye solutions and being exposed to the vapors of hydrocarbon solvents.

The purely imaginary method described below does work, but it works really really slow. SWIM's FOAF was able to extract ~100mg freebase alkaloids from 10g of MHRB. This method does not discriminate between the alkaloids that are extracted (j.spice, d., d-Noxide etc etc), this is however a subject of discussion.

The tek:

1) dissolve 5g of citric acid per 100ml acetone

2) take the shredded/powdered bark and cover it with enough citric acid acetone. Incubate in a warm place, gently agitating every so often. After 2-3 hours, filter off the citric-acid saturated acetone extract and set aside (this solution should have acquired the dark reddish colour of MHRB). Repeat 2 more times.

3) saturate acetone with fumaric acid. Acetone can hold ~20mg/ml fumaric acid if let for a day or so to completely dissolve.

4) Add the fumaric acid-saturated acetone in the citric acid-saturated acetone MHRB extract. One cannot put too much.

5) Set it aside and wait for 2-3 days. One should see a yellowish precipitate on the bottom.

NOTE: In step 2 one is making an acetone extraction and at the same time converting the alkaloids their citrate salt. After addition of the fumaric acid-saturated acetone in step 4, there is an interconversion of alkaloid-citrate to alkaloid-fumarate salt, like:

dmt-citrate + fumaric acid <-> dmt-fumarate + citric acid

citric acid has a pKa of 3.13, while fumaric acid's pka is 3.43. Fumaric acid is a weaker acid and thus in the above reaction one should have most of the dmt as a citrate salt and just a tiny amount as a fumarate salt. dmt-fumarate however is totally insoluble in acetone (while dmt-citrate is perfectly soluble), and it precipitates as soon as it forms. The insolubility of dmt-fumarate acts therefore as a "sink" and given time all of the dmt-citrate will eventually convert to dmt-fumarate and precipitate out.

6) wash the precipitated fumarate salts with acetone, then take them out and let them dry.

7) dissolve the alkaloid-fumarate salts in 5ml of tap water, then and then add saturated sodium carbonate to make the solution basic. The alkaloids will be freebased and the solution will become milky. In 3 days they will precipitate out forming nice needle-like crystal in the basic solution. At this stage, one can filter the solution (nasty procedure since the crystals tend to be sticky and waxy) and retrieve any left alkaloids by dissolving them in acetone.

8 ) Let the crystals dry, wash them with acetone (it removes any traces of sodium corbonate which is totally insoluble in acetone), evaporate the acetone and enjoy the product.

For the FOAF of SWIM 30mg were for a good STRONG experience.

edit: Fumaric Acid 30(g) grams is back in stock;
http://flowingvisions.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2972332

FlowingVisions Rare Herbs and Extracts

flowingvisions.ecrater.com

 

[Infundibulum]

Hold this tek back for a bit; SWIM's FOAF is trying a better version that might have much much better results.

But if SWIY wants to try it as it is, better do it witha 10-20g just to get a feeling for it before jumping to bigger amounts.

SWIM's FOAF does not like this tek that much, it does work however, and it needs some improvements.

 

[Faust]

Hold this tek back for a bit; SWIM's FOAF is trying a better version that might have much much better results.

But if SWIY wants to try it as it is, better do it witha 10-20g just to get a feeling for it before jumping to bigger amounts.

SWIM's FOAF does not like this tek that much, it does work however, and it needs some improvements.

What is the problem?

Is it the ingredients involved? dmt-citrate<->acetone-fumarate?

FOAF has already his citric acid and acetone, but is not ready to test.

 

[Infundibulum]

Not much problem, I guess it depends whether SWIY wants to extract some for hyperspace travelling or whether he wants to extract just for researching new extraction methods and techniques.

But if SWIY wants to do it, do not start with 100s of grams. Tell him to go for 10-20g of a known batch with known yield to see how the tek is working FOR HIM. The reason is that this tek has not been tried by many people, (hardly a couple), so not many people will be able to troubleshoot if problems arise.

But most importantly, the tek has not (yet!) proven to be working nicely for a large group of people. Just as an example, the guy who first did it used lab grade acetone, lab grade fumaric acid, lab grade citric acid etc etc. Not the kind of stuff one can buy from hardware stores. How does SWIY know it is going to work nicely for him?

Well he can find out! As I said, try with 10-20g of bark and see how it goes. It would be very promising to hear back with success!

 

[Saidin]

Is it possible that FASA precipitations directly from xylene MHRB pulls are dropping other inactive alks such as NMT, tryptamine, etc?

looking at ron69's post in the bufo thread of xlogp for NMT it is between DMT N-Oxide and DMT. Could edit: (xylene be pulling NMT and may) this be one of the reasons why oral DMT dosages vary so much?
I guess this isnt FASA specific and could apply to evaped xylene pulls but those usually result in a sticky product not often used for oral doses.

just some rough thoughts that came to mind earlier today as i have had varying experiences using similar fumarate dosages from different xylene pulls and similar MAOI quantities. Though this may be attributed to body chemistry variations also.

disclamer: these speculations may be completly wrong

This could be happening. I've been getting 2% yields from FASA on pre-powdered bark. Granted, I haven't tried a normal stb extraction on it, but the yields have been crazy. Each pull looks a little different too, though I haven't been able to determine if they have different effects.

 

[Infundibulum]

I would presume that FASA gives someone all (or most of?) the alkaloids that can be found in a plant material. Now, saying ALL the alkaloids can be a bit of an overstatement, however it does wirk with a wide range of alkaloids, notably with "interesting" alkaloids. SWIM has tried FASA with dmt, mescaline, harmine, and harmaline and is working nicely.

Or to be more precise when STB is used for FASA, one gets all the alkaloids that can withstand such a high pH.

And yes, SWIM's FOAF is getting insane 2% yields as well with FASA, with the end-product smoking beautifully and being what someone would want from a spice experience.

 

[Faust]

Not much problem, I guess it depends whether SWIY wants to extract some for hyperspace travelling or whether he wants to extract just for researching new extraction methods and techniques.

But if SWIY wants to do it, do not start with 100s of grams. Tell him to go for 10-20g of a known batch with known yield to see how the tek is working FOR HIM. The reason is that this tek has not been tried by many people, (hardly a couple), so not many people will be able to troubleshoot if problems arise.

But most importantly, the tek has not (yet!) proven to be working nicely for a large group of people. Just as an example, the guy who first did it used lab grade acetone, lab grade fumaric acid, lab grade citric acid etc etc. Not the kind of stuff one can buy from hardware stores. How does SWIY know it is going to work nicely for him?

Well he can find out! As I said, try with 10-20g of bark and see how it goes. It would be very promising to hear back with success!

FOAF has started a small test group 20g of MHRB and 5g of food-grade citric acid in klean-strip acetone solution.

Quick question here; Materials were left unadulterated (did not add mag sulfate to acetone). Very deep 6" approx aluminum turkey pan with precisely covered bark-spice koolaid was agitated every 30 mins for 3 hrs.

Do you put the 3 seperate acetone-citrate solutions into the final collection [easy hand/spatula access] jar? Or do you recycle each acetone-citrate wash and use it over and over and over, 3 times? If recycling, do you store your used alkaloid-heavy acetone in an airtight jar in a freezer or something [to prevent evaporation]?

Note: the first acetone-citrate solution had refused to dissolve 3-5 white/clear particles of citric acid were left in the container even after vigorous stirring (15min) and swirling of the solution. Will have pictures of the materials and process when FOAF is comfortable with his procedures/environment.

Note: when just experimenting FOAF found that more citric acid (6g+/100ml) will dissolve in acetone than 5g/100ml so it was not that the solution was saturated that apparently could not dissolve those 5 granules of citrc acid.

 

[Faust]

Pics as promised, FASA in the 20g test jar.

100g MHRB + citric acid-acetone, in the extraction pics.