The future of our civilisation?

[polytrip]

For a long time i have loved being a westerner. I do not believe in ideas of cultural superiority, but i guess thát very thing was exactly what made me love being a westerner: that i thought we where beyond that, that from our dark past we had learned not to fall anymore for ideas of superiority of one land above the other, one people over the other, one gender over the other, etc.

Many people hate the west, and some have good reasons for it. But many who hate the west hold a double standard for acountability: the wrongs of other countries are being dismissed by refering to the fact that they have another culture that holds other values.
By this logic something like 'rendition' is a terrible crime because we in the west think that torture is wrong, but the egyptions or syrians that actually DO the torturing are supposed to be less wrong, because in their culture a human life is supposed to have less value.

The chinese, russian and other governments constantly use this logic to excuse themselves in doing away with human rights: we in the west are supposed to respect the fact that the word respect has no meaning at all for the chinese or russian leaders.

And we have fallen for it, since we where thinking we could make money by doing busines with the chinese and the russians and the iranians, and the nigerians, and the birmese, etc.

In short: i DO believe in human rights. I believe people should be protected against suffering and that this right aplies to all humans equally. The 'glory' of a nation or a god, wich usually means the glory of religious or national leaders, can never be an excuse for preventable human suffering.

I have long thought the west to be a beacon for humanity, when it comes to human rights.

But when i look around me i see that the solidity of what holds these rights in our society's is weakening. Constitutions are being violated everyday, labour-rights, human solidarity and care for the poor who still exist in our society's, are seen as an obstacle for a free market, wars are being fought that have no basis but the self-interest of leaders and they're being sold to us with lies, hate against immigrants and especially muslims is growing through the decades and democracy is more and more becoming a facade.

I don't think a world dominated by china will be any better than a world dominated by the west, it is more likely to be worse.

So the only hope for the very notion of human rights would be maybe a strong india, a country where human rights are also being violated in an extreme manner, but at least there you can say it are the extreme economic conditions that cause these things: india's economic situation is roughly comparable with that of europe during the industrial revolution and human rights violations in europe where at least as bad then, and an increase in wealth lifted europe and america up out of that misery.

The west should form coalitions with countries that also have the notion of human rights embedded in their (political) culture and it should take a critical look at itself.

I see how we are selling out the beliefs that are the foundations of our civilisation and how we are betraying ourselfes day by day....and how we believe that we can get away with it.

What is the future of our civilisation? Can there be a place for human solidarity, for respect? Or will we become just like china, where only the party establishment and the people with money and without opinions are entitled to those goods?

 

[ragabr]

Really big topic to choose, polytrip. ;-)

I'm not a big believer in world-wide solidarity, but very much for non-violent protocols. It looks to me that national states have hit their limits. Each one of them depend on high concentrations of cheap energy and control of information flows. Already the Naxal insurgency in India, the cartel wars in Mexico, MEND action in Nigeria, to list a few, have demonstrated the power of cheap local action to create autonomous zones from state and globalized control.

I believe that low concentration, cheap energy (solar, wind, etc) can maintain high levels of living world-wide if communities are freed from the rent-extraction of state-corporate institutions. Especially with open-source hardware movements like Open-Source Ecology.

Unfortunately, state power has traditionally aligned itself with illegitimate criminal undergrounds. It is in the short-term interest of governments and corporate bodies to encourage black-markets in geographic areas they consider to be in competition or closed to them commercially. The book McMafia does a wonderful job illustrating the impact of these measures around the world. Reading that along with Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine and Dmitri Orlov's Reinventing Collapse provides a strong base for understanding some of the systemic challenges proponents of localization face.

My greatest fear is that upstanding individuals in communities will see their choices as between criminal gangs and supporting traditional state infrastructures. Trusting in the institutions we have today, instead of building the skeleton to support a new type of community will simply leave everyone prey to the forces of violence and ignorance when the old order consumes itself.

 

[corpus callosum]

I think all civilisations run a circular course, although the 'circumference' may vary.All start small, expand, reach a climactic position of strength then inevitably decline.History confirms this.

I think the extreme violation of human rights in India transcends the economic sphere and its knock-on effects ;their culture still retains the concept of 'The Untouchables' (Dalits) and this predates Indias growing economic power.It stems from their Hindu-derived caste system which shows no signs presently of changing.

I feel that those countries where human rights are lacking are inherently insecure and feel that by offering these rights that they could undermine their own existence in time.Some would say that this is becoming apparent in the West now and Wikileaks is an illustrator of this.

The Western powers spout on about human rights insincerely and are happy to trim them back should the need arise;places like Egypt/Syria/Morrocco etc certainly keep pretty quiet about human rights and abuse them daily-but in a perverse kind of way their positions are a little more credible than that of the West but ultimately are not acceptable.

The circus called the UN is where nations are supposed to nurture their shared adherence to the concept of human rights etc but it seems to me that the stronger powers (ones possessing the veto) use it to rubberstamp their nefarious practises and if this is not possible, will just ignore it totally.

Lastly I think democracy as we see it in the US (or UK for example) is a facade-the choice between a kick in the bollocks or having your jaw broken is no real choice.And the parrott-cry 'But its the best system ,albeit imperfect' does require som scrutiny.Vested interests are the only things with the power to endure and ultimately the Palaces of Power stay the same, its just the guards that periodically change.

 

[Magicman]

Who is it that has the signature about the venus project ? i can see him ringing in here.
I like the venus project

 

[polytrip]

My main concern is that not only people will lose their faith in western governments, but most of all that people will lose their belief in western values that ARE important like human rights, solidarity, sharing, respect, etc.

I do belief btw, that the indian caste system has been strongly encouraged by the brits and doesnt run as deep into indian hearts as many people think, india is also the cradle of budhism that rejects the caste system.

Poverty is also a huge catalist of human rights violations. It encourages corruption, crime, slavery, abuse, jalousy, hate, xenophobia, agression, social barriers, etc.

There are many countries that do share a simmilar belief in human rights with western nations. But whether those beliefs can come to bloom is another thing.

A world dominated by dictatorial powers like china will be most definately a world less well of than a world dominated by countries that have the belief in human rights embedded in their culture.
And i don't think china is likely to change very soon. communism has created a culture where respect for the individual has totally vanished and kapitalism has intruduces the element of greed into chinese society.

I think the west should do everything it can to make countries like india that are balancing between dictature and democracy, tip towards democracy.

 

[corpus callosum]

The caste system in India predates the British involvement by a long long time.The Brits are good at exploiting these things for their own ends however.The amount of prejudice against these unfortunates continues to be very evident, albeit that this is a function of geography.

http://indiafacts.in/statistics/crimes-against-dalits-in-india/

India is on the face of it the worlds largest democracy but their behaviour is more akin to a harsh dictatorship especially in Kashmir;Wikileaks released a load of info of how their troops routinely torture and sexually abuse civilians.

I think inequality more than poverty per se is the driver of the negative things you mention, Polytrip.

 

[polytrip]

Yeah, i see that india has this darker side. I'm not one of those westerners who idealises indian society and who thinks that the people over there are more spiritual.

I think though that countries like india, brazil, thailand, south-africa and others have the potential to become good and truly democratic society's because there is a basic notion of the sanctity of life deeply rooted within the culture itself, just like in the west.

In china, or russia i don't see such a potential that much. Their cultures are more totalitarian/collectivistic. Individual rights are alien concepts in these cultures, but mostly communism has eradicated such notions as solidarity. People have learned from one generation to the other, to look the other way when bad things happen.
Chinese people will give evasive answers when you talk about human rights violations and not just because they're afraid, but also because it is a pavlovian reflex.

 

[talking monkey]

I think the half baked semi truths propagated by the two-party system to polarize detractors is our biggest problem. We look across the sea to find a better place that does not exist. We attack all ideas not propagated by our party of identity while the political elites engage in a culture of power, greed, and bribery. Things like earmarks are the way of doing business and in the every-persons world it would be considered bribery. I am humbled by the intuitive posts here and feel a student to some of the people on this forum. In this little corner of cyber-space lies beings struggling and finding the truths within themselves. We cannot change the world unless we change ourselves and the elites are incapable of this because of the system even if they were capable of it. We need to evolve or die. We are voting to pick which slave masters will have power for the next few laps around the sun. If we tried to change it believe me the two parties would band together against us. I am sorry to be so grim but alas it is the way i perceive it. Only a true mass awakening or catastrophe will get us there IMHO. We only change when consequences are dire.

 

[polytrip]

Maybe i should have asked: how can we cause western society to be more humane?

That's the question that haunts me.

When i grew up in holland, you didn't saw homeless children anywhere. You just didn't have homeless childeren in holland a few decades ago.

Now there are homeless childeren in holland.
I have a hard time accepting how society has changed. I have a hard time accepting that everyone is accepting the unnacceptable.

You can't turn back the clock, but we have lost something important and we should try to get it back.

 

[Magicman]

I find it strange that u talk of society getting worse poly trip , and i always do when people speak of it like that.I fully understand why they do , but i disagree that it has, maybe holland in particular has gotten poorer, but other places have gotten better , and people see the ills of todays societies; in a third world chasing the first .and wars and all the atrocities you care to list ( and as you say , it being inhumane ) but , you forget it has always been this way in some shape or form , in some different place under some different leader . It is the people causing them , the reason it seems worse is novelty ; the bad factors change , and therefore seem worse. they arent . medieval times were maybe the worst in history, but in actual fact it was just bad in different ways . i was going to think up other examples ,but i dont want to seem patronizing .

 

[Ice House]

I see a world that is changing due to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. The ultimate goal of the Islamic faith is a one world religion. The more moderate and peceful muslims are fleeing traditional muslim lands for western countries where that they can find freedom of religon and free social welfare and jobs. In America like france and Germany we have given them safe haven and they have established muslim enclaves and sharia law. Once we welcomed them, now many Americans regret this. They use the system and they are quietly establishing a huge radical following in our own country. Soon the will be a majority and then what? Will Sharia law be imposed on us also? Lets face it, in a democratic system, its the majority that establishes the laws.

I feel threatened how should I react and feel about whats going on?

Anyone?

 

[Magicman]

shit ice house, never thought about it like that.
but im just so tired of being trapped in governmental systems ,everywhere u turn , no way to liberate yourself. sigh.
Too many frustrations to type aaargh. this has brought them to the foreground of my mind.
Move to where it wont happen , away from the west, move to some barely established country.

 

[polytrip]

I see a world that is changing due to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. The ultimate goal of the Islamic faith is a one world religion. The more moderate and peceful muslims are fleeing traditional muslim lands for western countries where that they can find freedom of religon and free social welfare and jobs. In America like france and Germany we have given them safe haven and they have established muslim enclaves and sharia law. Once we welcomed them, now many Americans regret this. They use the system and they are quietly establishing a huge radical following in our own country. Soon the will be a majority and then what? Will Sharia law be imposed on us also? Lets face it, in a democratic system, its the majority that establishes the laws.

I feel threatened how should I react and feel about whats going on?

Anyone?

I don't think that muslims are ever going to be majority in europe or america. America has a population of over 300 million and europe of over 500 million. You don't easily outnumber that many people.

On the other hand it is clearly true that especially in europe, people have been naive.
At the time the rushdie thing started to play, europeans should have been realising that at least a mini-clash of cultures was likely to happen.

Allowing for sharia-law within western countries is unacceptable since it is a clear violation of our own values and goes against the constitutions of all western nations.

Nevertheless, i don't think islam is a very big threat to us.
Especially to america it poses hardly a threat at all, since most immigrants are of latin-american origin, so immigration isn't even gonna change the total percentage of muslims in america.

Besides climate change and other things, in terms of foreign interventions, china is a much more serious threat.
Doing business with countries that violate human rights will put pressure on your economic system to lessen regulations like labour-rights.
If there is always a place where you can produce cheaper, wages on the lower end will go down, creating greater inequality.
In terms of labour-rights, our economy's are caught in a race towards the bottom.

Once we started accepting products on our markets that where made by slaves we sealed our fate.

In the case of allowing both sharia law in the west and trade in slave-made products, we have betrayed our own values.

Just as btw hate againts all muslims is a form of betrayal of those very same values.
At this moment in europe, that hate against muslims is also a much greater danger to society than islam itself. I can't judge for how the american situation is in this regard, but anti-islam politicians in europe are pleeing for huge violations of our constitutions and even abolishing whole constitutions.

We will lose our humanity if we allow for that to happen. As a matter of fact, allowing party's that want to abolish the constitution in parliament is already a form of betrayal to the constitution, because what you are actually saying with that is: "genocide is not allowed in our country, but you're free to try to make it happen".
It's like saying "you're not allowed to rob a bank, but you are allowed to try to rob one".
And the moment you would actually want to stop it taking place you'd be almost by definition to late.

 

[MelCat]

I personally believe that there are many possible outcomes for our society.

If we continue going down the same road that we're on (and by we, I mean Westerners) then as Corpus said, history will repeat itself and we will start to decline.

Many of our ways of thinking are outdated and need drastic revisions.

That's funny that Magicman mentioned me and the Venus Project because that is exactly the change that we need to see on a Global scale.

A quick overview of the Venus Project from their FAQ:

Very Briefly, The Venus Project is an organization that proposes a feasible plan of action for social change; one that works toward a peaceful and sustainable global civilization. It outlines an alternative to strive toward where human rights are not only paper proclamations but also a way of life.

The Venus Project presents a vision not of what the future will be, but what it can be if we apply what we already know in order to achieve a sustainable new world civilization. It calls for a straightforward redesign of our culture in which the age-old problems of war, poverty, hunger, debt, and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but as totally unacceptable. Anything less will result in a continuation of the same catalog of problems found in today's world.

The Venus Project presents an alternative vision for a sustainable world civilization unlike any political, economic or social system that has gone before. It envisions a time in the near future when money, politics, self and national-interest have been phased out. Although this vision may seem idealistic, it is based upon years of study and experimental research. It spans the gambit from education, transportation, clean sources of energy to total city systems.

Many people believe what is needed is a higher sense of ethical standards and the enactment of international laws and treaties to assure a sustainable global society. Even if the most ethical people in the world were elected to political office, without sufficient resources we would still have many of the same problems we have today. As long as a few nations control most of the world's resources and profit is the bottom line, the same cycle of events will prevail.

As global challenges and scientific information proliferate, nations and people face common threats that transcend national boundaries. Overpopulation, energy shortages, global warming, environmental pollution, water scarcity, economic catastrophe, the spread of uncontrollable disease, and the technological displacement of people by machines threaten each of us. Although many people are dedicated to alleviating those conditions, our social and environmental problems will remain insurmountable as long as a few powerful nations and financial interests maintain control of and consume most of the world's resources and the monetary system prevails.

If we really wish to put an end to our ongoing international and social problems, we must declare Earth and all of its resources the common heritage of all of the world's people.

Earth is abundant and has plentiful resources. Our practice of rationing resources through monetary control is no longer relevant and is counter-productive to our survival. Today we have highly advanced technologies, but our social and economic system has not kept up with our technological capabilities. We could easily create a world of abundance for all, free of servitude and debt based on the carrying capacity of Earth resources. With the intelligent and humane application of science and technology, the people of the earth can guide and shape the future together while protecting the environment. We don't have enough money to accomplish these ends but we do have more than enough resources. This is why we advocate a Resource-Based Economy.

More info about the Resource Based Economy and tons of other great info about the Venus Project and their views/ideals can also be found on the FAQ.

As far as India, China, Muslims and Russians go... They all have the exact same issue as us. We value the "all mighty" dollar over basic human rights. Problems in todays society do not get dealt with unless there is a profit to be made.

Once we evolve past the need for money we will see a much brighter future for everyone.

It's like the old saying. There is more than enough for everyones needs, but not for everyones greed. And from the late, great Jimi Hendrix, when the Power of Love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.

Either way, we still have a long way to go.

 

[Magicman]

There he is . . .
I'm quite fond of the venus project, but a major revolution would be necessary to implement such a different society

 

[xibalbaNOW]

Major revolution indeed. Concepts like human rights only exist in a world where the prevalence of violating said rights is so rife. For us to transcend ourselves and human society we need total dissolution of borders, the abandonment of secular culture, and a new symbiosis of technology in a new science. This post is particularly relevant on a forum exploring the psychedelic world - i'm sure i'm not alone when i say that psychedelics surely hold the key to this new human world, whatever that may be!

 

[blue_velvet]

Surely, xibalbaNOW, although I'm not sure about abandoning secular culture. Terence McKenna referred to himself and other psychedelic users as "secular humanists." Secularity is a very good thing. Look here at the Nexus. Despite the number of psychedelic users and the use of 'spirit molecule' in the title, this is still a secular forum. The bond is beyond religion.

But you're absolutely right about dissolving borders (boundaries) and needing a new techological symbiosis. Anarchy, in any and all of its incarnations, can only be made possible with radical change in the minds of the people. Psychedelics could potentially provide this change.

 

[corpus callosum]

I see a world that is changing due to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. The ultimate goal of the Islamic faith is a one world religion. The more moderate and peceful muslims are fleeing traditional muslim lands for western countries where that they can find freedom of religon and free social welfare and jobs. In America like france and Germany we have given them safe haven and they have established muslim enclaves and sharia law. Once we welcomed them, now many Americans regret this. They use the system and they are quietly establishing a huge radical following in our own country. Soon the will be a majority and then what? Will Sharia law be imposed on us also? Lets face it, in a democratic system, its the majority that establishes the laws.

I feel threatened how should I react and feel about whats going on?

Anyone?

I don't think that muslims are ever going to be majority in europe or america. America has a population of over 300 million and europe of over 500 million. You don't easily outnumber that many people.

On the other hand it is clearly true that especially in europe, people have been naive.
At the time the rushdie thing started to play, europeans should have been realising that at least a mini-clash of cultures was likely to happen.

Allowing for sharia-law within western countries is unacceptable since it is a clear violation of our own values and goes against the constitutions of all western nations.

Nevertheless, i don't think islam is a very big threat to us.
Especially to america it poses hardly a threat at all, since most immigrants are of latin-american origin, so immigration isn't even gonna change the total percentage of muslims in america.

Besides climate change and other things, in terms of foreign interventions, china is a much more serious threat.
Doing business with countries that violate human rights will put pressure on your economic system to lessen regulations like labour-rights.
If there is always a place where you can produce cheaper, wages on the lower end will go down, creating greater inequality.
In terms of labour-rights, our economy's are caught in a race towards the bottom.

Once we started accepting products on our markets that where made by slaves we sealed our fate.

In the case of allowing both sharia law in the west and trade in slave-made products, we have betrayed our own values.

Just as btw hate againts all muslims is a form of betrayal of those very same values.
At this moment in europe, that hate against muslims is also a much greater danger to society than islam itself. I can't judge for how the american situation is in this regard, but anti-islam politicians in europe are pleeing for huge violations of our constitutions and even abolishing whole constitutions.

We will lose our humanity if we allow for that to happen. As a matter of fact, allowing party's that want to abolish the constitution in parliament is already a form of betrayal to the constitution, because what you are actually saying with that is: "genocide is not allowed in our country, but you're free to try to make it happen".
It's like saying "you're not allowed to rob a bank, but you are allowed to try to rob one".
And the moment you would actually want to stop it taking place you'd be almost by definition to late.

Ice House-Why exactly do you feel threatened by Muslims? Im also interested to know what exactly you mean by 'huge radical following' and what your evidence for this is.I speak as a Muslim so your feelings on the matter I find intriguing.

 

[polytrip]

The majority of muslims hate the fundamentalists just as much as the rest of us.
The point is that they often feel uncomfortably expressing this publicly because they're often from a culture where freedom of speech is not apreciated as over here in the west. In many islamic countries it is even quite dangerous to say what you realy think about fundamentalists. If not because of measures that could be taken by the government, then often from groups of fundamentalists.

Immigration is a bit of an issue, though. On one hand completely closing the borders for people who live in extreme poverty is quite harsh. But on the other hand people who can't adapt to modern society's because they're completely illiterate for instance often find themselves in even greater trouble when they move to the west

Migration policy is a big moral challenge for most western governments. A bit too big a challenge probably.

European governments tend to be a bit too strict while i think america is a bit to leniant, because of the advantage many busines can take of immigrants.

I find it totally immoral to let ordinary citizens compete on the labourmarket with people who're, forced by circumstances, willing to work way below minimum wage.

But when you look at the greater picture you can see that the big corporations will benefit hugely from all these sweatshops, because they are a tool for helping to keep wages low for ordinary citizens.

Using slavery in this manner is just another way of stealing from the poor and giving it to the rich, just as nationalising banks and car-manufacturers and letting the CEO's still have their extremely big bonusses, is.

Stealing from the poor in a stealthy manner and giving the lute to the rich is more and more becoming a specialty of many western governments.

 

[blue_velvet]

I think third world laborers need to take responsibility, organize, and demand higher wages. Government can't possibly do anything effective in this case. At present, many of those laborers are doing better than they were before thanks to outsourcing. The problem most Westerners have with it is the effect it has on the Western middle class. This goes for illegal immigrants as well. They work below minimum wage giving them an advantage in the labor market. I seriously believe that there will never be an adequate political solution to any of the world's ills. It is solely on the people to create any change world. The best thing anyone can do is give the power back to the people, and I mean that in the most literal sense.