The issue of Gramine

[Transform]

Don't know if I understand the comment before last one completly?

So a normal A/B extraction does remove all the tyramine for sure (or at least most of it to be relevant)

But it doesn't remove any gramine at all or only just a small part, leaving most behind in the final end-product right?

Or just partially, removing most of it or at least a large part so it "might be" of no or of a lesser relevance?


I think the almost all the effects tyramine, are well researched and are known quite well already and we know it's dangerous with MAOI's.
That is why all food that contains (high) amount of tyramine is on every diet-list if you want to take/do Ayahuasca
(because tyramine isn't broken down anymore by MAO, the tyramine levels in your blood can raise your bloodpressure to such high levels it can be fatal or in the best scenario will leave you behind with a big headache)

I may hope that this common knowledge is known by everyone who takes ayahuasca? So we can at least conclude already then that Phalaris is not suitable in ayahuasca brews? (at least if it is not tested beforehand on tyramine?)

But I am still curious about a convenient or reliable method on how to remove gramine, if a normal A/B extraction doesn't do the job?

There are two types of MAO, and the one inhibited by ayahuasca (MAO-A) is the one which mostly breaks down tryptamines, whereas tyramine is broken down by the other form (MAO-B), which isn't affected by normal doses of ayahuasca. The dietary proscriptions for ayahuasca (a selective reversible inhibitor/RIMA) are for broadly different reasons than the tyramine prohibition for irreversible, possibly nonselective, inhibitors of MAO.

Perhaps the question is, how does gramine interact with the MAO system? Also, we are still dealing with some unknowns with the grasses so extrapolating too directly from ayahuasca could be problematic.

 

[neurobloom]

Don't know if I understand the comment before last one completly?

So a normal A/B extraction does remove all the tyramine for sure (or at least most of it to be relevant)

But it doesn't remove any gramine at all or only just a small part, leaving most behind in the final end-product right?

Or just partially, removing most of it or at least a large part so it "might be" of no or of a lesser relevance?


I think the almost all the effects tyramine, are well researched and are known quite well already and we know it's dangerous with MAOI's.
That is why all food that contains (high) amount of tyramine is on every diet-list if you want to take/do Ayahuasca
(because tyramine isn't broken down anymore by MAO, the tyramine levels in your blood can raise your bloodpressure to such high levels it can be fatal or in the best scenario will leave you behind with a big headache)

I may hope that this common knowledge is known by everyone who takes ayahuasca? So we can at least conclude already then that Phalaris is not suitable in ayahuasca brews? (at least if it is not tested beforehand on tyramine?)

But I am still curious about a convenient or reliable method on how to remove gramine, if a normal A/B extraction doesn't do the job?

It depends on what kind of solvent you're using. Aliphatic hydrocarbons like hexane, naphtha, petroleum ether, pentane shouldn't pull gramine at room temperature. There's also evidence of cold limonene not pulling gramine.

Wider spectrum solvents like toluene, xylene, chloroform, dichloromethane will pull gramine. But i personally don't care for gramine in my extract and haven't noticed any difference with or without gramine in these smoked extracts.

As for Tyramine it will not be pulled in a standard acid base extraction as it's more attracted to the aqueous layer even as freebase. Some may end up in your extract but nothing substantial.

 

[Isanara]

This recent publication (2023) might be of interest here

 

[Transform]

It might even embed quite nicely, now that we have the new forum:

Recent Developments of Gramine: Chemistry and Biological Activity - PMC

The natural alkaloid gramine has attracted significant attention in both academic and industrial circles because of its potential and diverse biological activities, including antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal, anti-inflammatory and antitumor ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov