The kratom community could use your guys help...

[Heretic]

Hi, for those who are not aware kratom has recently come under legal fire. The responsible vendors and members of the community are attempting to start self regulating before the government does it for us. Kratom has already been made illegal in the states of Indiana & Iowa. One method of self regulation is a boycott of vendors who sell to headshops in the attempt to remove the association the herb shares with the legal high industry. The other attempt is analysis of different kratom products, and this is why I come here to you today. In particular we are looking for synthesis impurities as well as synthetic additives that could have found their way into leaf and extracts. For those who are not aware, some kratom has been laced with the research chemical o-desmethyltramadol. There are also chemists who are extracting the major alkaloid Mitragynine and converting it into the minor but extremely potent 7-ho-mitragynine alkaloid. I would imagine there would be synthesis impurities left behind that could be picked up using HPLC or other methods. I do not post in this forum too much, but I have been a part of this website since before it was even an active forum, and have spent much of my adult life spreading the lessons I have learned here. I appreciate the consideration and if you guys can help me out I already have all the products in question, we just need someone with the ability to step forward. If money is an issue I am sure we can get some together. You would be surprised at how many people benefit from the herb kratom, it is much more than what meets the eye. All of these Indoles are.

Thank you.

 

[SpartanII]

As an opiate-lover, this really saddens me. But what exactly are you asking us to do?

If the government wants it banned/scheduled, it's going to get banned/scheduled.

I'm curious, how long does the Kratom community expect it to be before it becomes unavailable?

 

[Infundibulum]

Hi, for those who are not aware kratom has recently come under legal fire. The responsible vendors and members of the community are attempting to start self regulating before the government does it for us. Kratom has already been made illegal in the states of Indiana & Iowa. One method of self regulation is a boycott of vendors who sell to headshops in the attempt to remove the association the herb shares with the legal high industry. The other attempt is analysis of different kratom products, and this is why I come here to you today. In particular we are looking for synthesis impurities as well as synthetic additives that could have found their way into leaf and extracts. For those who are not aware, some kratom has been laced with the research chemical o-desmethyltramadol. There are also chemists who are extracting the major alkaloid Mitragynine and converting it into the minor but extremely potent 7-ho-mitragynine alkaloid. I would imagine there would be synthesis impurities left behind that could be picked up using HPLC or other methods. I do not post in this forum too much, but I have been a part of this website since before it was even an active forum, and have spent much of my adult life spreading the lessons I have learned here. I appreciate the consideration and if you guys can help me out I already have all the products in question, we just need someone with the ability to step forward. If money is an issue I am sure we can get some together. You would be surprised at how many people benefit from the herb kratom, it is much more than what meets the eye. All of these Indoles are.

Thank you.

Since speaking between the lines is really not much help, what do you really want, straight and cut? What I understand is that you want someone with access to analytical equipment to analyse the end-products of mitragynine -> 7-ho-mitragynine conversion to see if they are safe enough for consumption? And that's because in a potential kratom banning one would be able to stock up and by extracting mitragynine and converting ot to its 7-ho- derivative one will be getting more (time-wise) bang for his cash?

Do I get you right? I guess it's not that difficult to speak out what you want, please help us understand you, otherwise it makes no sense.

 

[Heretic]

No, that is not what I meant. I do not find much things that are synthesized to be safe for consumption, even the products we find our food preserved with. I am heavily a natural fan. What I was requesting is for several kratom products, including plain leaf as well as extracts to be analyzed to see if they have been laced. The products that they could be laced with are known (o-desmethyl tramadol) and when it comes to lacing with a synthetic version of 7-ho-mitragynine, there would most likely be synthesis impurities left inside the end product, which could be picked up by HPLC (I hope).

We are not sure about the long term legality of kratom, but three states have already taken initiatives, and the media is having a field day with it. Much of this drama comes from a few cases of ER visits, which we believe could be caused by the laced products, and the rest of the drama comes from the leaf being sold in headshops, at times to minors. I am sorry if I was not clear in my original post.

I will explain my belief about the lacing:

Kratom contains 25 different alkaloids, many are anti-addictive in nature, such as the opioid antagonists and NDMA antagonists found in the leaf. The two main alkaloids are Mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine. Mitragynine is found in high concentrations, making up 80% of the alkaloids. 7-ho-mitragynine only makes up 2% of the alkaloids. Mitragynine itself is not that strong of an opioid agonist. 7-ho-mitragynine is 3-17 times stronger than morphine. People have, and might still be extracting the Mitragynine and converting it into 7-ho-mitragynine with lead tetra acetate or other methods, then selling this semi-synthetic as an extract and potentially lacing plain leaf kratom with it. If the kratom community wants to survive, it needs to self regulate and oust those who are doing this, and you guys are the only community I know that has the capabilities to do so.

Hope this cleared things up a little bit.

 

[Infundibulum]

Well, that's a hell lot more clear, thanks for your time - I really believe that you are fighting for a fair cause and I also believe that there are good reasons to think that kratom products may be laced - after all, all the headshops around my area are making most of their profit from kratom alone.

As for testing them, this is a touchy subject (see: breach of anonymity and so forth ) that I personally cannot be of further assistance, but I really hope that someone with access to such technology+time will be seeing this post and contact you via PM. But just to keep the ball rolling, do you have any further cues re the possible adulteration of kratom? I got no personal experience with kratom but a dear friend of mine got his life totally out of control (he makes a living as a homeless beggar now) after gotten hooked for good on kratom (his claim). Since this sounds antithetical to the commonly advertised "benign" nature of kratom, would you suspect he was ingesting spiked kratom?

Thanks for any of your advice,
Infun

 

[endlessness]

Do you know where the people who were hospitalized got their kratom from, and what kind of product it was?

Do you think that, say, if you had the different products tested, it would really help in terms of the law changes?

Is this of real priority when it comes to harm reduction?


I ask these things because all the analysis takes time and work, so if possibility ever arises, priorities have to be established.

Do you know what could be the possible impurities in 7-ho-mitragynine synthesis or other things kratom can be laced with?

 

[benzyme]

don't hate on synthetics, mayn. that's just ignorant.

there's no difference between a synthesized compound that's structurally the same as one
extracted from a natural source.

 

[Infundibulum]

don't hate on synthetics, mayn. that's just ignorant.

there's no difference between a synthesized compound that's structurally the same as one
extracted from a natural source.

Well, I do not thinks he hates on synthetics; he rather hates the possibility of kratom being sold spiked with the creations of non-accredited, profit-driven, kitchen chemists.

As a parallel, there's nothing really bad with semen but I really do not want the milk I buy to be spiked with semen. I like to spike my glass of milk with semen myself.

 

[benzyme]

Clarke's Analysis of Drugs and Poisons

the kratom community should educate itself on how to do its own analysis, support its own habit.

 

[jamie]

"I got no personal experience with kratom but a dear friend of mine got his life totally out of control (he makes a living as a homeless beggar now) after gotten hooked for good on kratom (his claim)."

Wow, I never did try kratom due to stories like this..I have heard more than once that it can be quite addictive..

 

[benzyme]

:wonders how that's possible..after all, it's a natural plant compound, right?:


yeaaa... I could, but won't, assist people in potentially addictive compound isolation and/or analysis.

 

[SpartanII]

Wow, I never did try kratom due to stories like this..I have heard more than once that it can be quite addictive..

It's short-acting, weak opiate-like herb comparable in strength to Vicodin so it's not nearly as difficult to come off of compared to heroin or methadone. But yes, it can be addictive especially if you use extracts and dose high/often.

 

[Pup Tentacle]

It's definitely an interesting plant but I definitely see how one could develop a habit. I tried it but started from the get-go knowing it plugs opiate receptors. I know how that can end up so I was careful.

 

[Heretic]

Yes kratom is addictive. But yes it also has built in addiction disruptors as well as a ceiling effect similar to the opiates given to rehab patients thanks to it's opioid antagonistic effects. Plain leaf has built in deterrents for the abuse that can be had with isolated opiates and the poppy plant. Combined with the rhynchophylline content found in the leaf (an anti-addictive NMDA antagonist also found in cat's claw) it is a very good tool for those living with chronic pain and an ever greater tool at helping people leave the world of isolated opiates. It is only when the compounds are split up from their intricate relationships with one another that kratom can become as dangerous as strong opiates. So yes, I do believe it is very important for harm reduction reasons to have these tests done. Like I said if money is an issue I can talk to a few of the interested people in the community I know and I am sure they would be able to chip some money in to have a test done.

I personally use kratom once through twice a week and have no problem at all with taking month long breaks. The stimulating varieties of kratom also served as a great tool for helping me keep up with my former friends who went down the drain thanks to mephedrone. I have even had a spiritual experience on kratom one time that I would say was nothing short of being as influential to my life as DMT itself. I am of the firm belief that nature is our friend. I am not saying that every plant is safe, but I do believe in plant intelligence, and have much respect for the evolved plants that carry with them the molecules of consciousness, especially higher order indoles such as tryptamines.

Thank you for the apt analogy Indundibulum. I found myself hooked on speed for a portion of my life thinking it was MDMA because of the same selfish reasons of people lacing product. I have a bit of a vendetta towards actions such as this you could say and would like to protect others from the same thing happening to them.

I would not come here and ask for such a favor unless I was confident that it has the real potential to significantly help many different people. Thank you.


@endlessness

The impurities would most likely be artifacts from synthesis, which the common reagent is lead tetra acetete although there are other methods, I can find them out the information is public just buried. I doubt the mainstream vendors are using O-Desmethyl Tramadol as synthetic 7-ho-mitragynine would be much harder to expose as a lace. There is also an intermediate )7-acetoxy-mitragynine) that would most likely be present as well. This intermediate is not present in plant synthesized 7-ho-mitragynine. Their is another method using a fluoride analogue and one other using another metal, I can't remember exactly but I will dig around and find out. Is it possible to detect heavy metal impurities down to ppm? I tried to do this myself with a heavy metal tester but the strips were not quality enough to detect anything, then again perhaps the leaf I tested was all legitimate. I imagine the quality of the test kit impeded accurate results to be honest though.

We do not know what products caused the hospitalizations but several vendors are supplying extracts and isolates to headshops so we would start with the major suppliers.

Yes, I do believe testing could prevent the illegality of this herb. There are two major forums where the main kratom vendors do their business, and these forums have strict rules to try and prevent this regulation from happening. If they find out that their approved vendors are doing something as shady as this, I would be of the opinion that those vendors would be given an ultimatum, to either stop, or be removed from the community and exposed. This testing would be the first vital step, the next is our responsibility, and that is to boycott the vendors providing any sort of product to the headshop/legal high community. We think we can prevent the government regulating our herb if we regulate it ourselves in a sense.

 

[alert]

Yes, I do believe testing could prevent the illegality of this herb. There are two major forums where the main kratom vendors do their business, and these forums have strict rules to try and prevent this regulation from happening. If they find out that their approved vendors are doing something as shady as this, I would be of the opinion that those vendors would be given an ultimatum, to either stop, or be removed from the community and exposed. This testing would be the first vital step, the next is our responsibility, and that is to boycott the vendors providing any sort of product to the headshop/legal high community. We think we can prevent the government regulating our herb if we regulate it ourselves in a sense.

Why do you think this? For every one vendor who tests their Kratom there are going to be ten who do not. Also, each supplier would have to test each new batch of material. Who is regulating it so that that you know each new analysis is genuine? This is an expensive and unrealistic system. I think it is admirable that you want to want to save this plant from scheduling but I question the benefits that are to be had. In fact, I'd argue that doing and posting analysis like this will actually bring more of the negative attention you are trying to avoid as it shows that the plant is being sold with the direct purpose of human consumption.

 

[genre]

I don't think I innerstand this legal high community thing. Like, its a bad thing to get high or something?

 

[genre]

And synthetics are not the same as their natural cousins. Molecules are more than just little balls stuck together. They spin, vibrate, there are quarks and things that can't be synthesized.

 

[The Day Tripper]

And synthetics are not the same as their natural cousins. Molecules are more than just little balls stuck together. They spin, vibrate, there are quarks and things that can't be synthesized.

I think you may be mistaken here.

Quarks are "supposedly" the makeup of the inside of particles, which are the insides of atoms, which join together to make molecules. You don't have a particle, atom, or molecule without quarks, hence all classically defined matter, synthetic or natural (thats not a well definable line either) has quarks. Synthetic molecules are identical to their natural counterparts. A synthesized isolate of one alkaloid, or a few, compared to a plant is entirely different though. Not because it "lacks quarks and things, and does not spin or vibrate", but because it has a different overall chemical composition, oftentimes many different molecules of varying structure.

See the difference? It has nothing to do with a synthetic molecule being different than a naturally produced molecule, but the composition of the overall product. One being full spectrum, variable in its composition and alkaloid levels based on natural factors, and the synthetic being isolated, not accompanied by the other alkaloids, and much less variety in the structure of molecules contained within it.

 

[Hiyo Quicksilver]

What's the big deal guys? The OP said it's only as addictive as vicodin! Where's the harm in that?? :twisted:

So, I'm confused here... the "Kratom Community" the thread title references... Are these people who use the drug to abate pain and provide mild stimulation so as to manage injuries while working, treat chronic anxiety, or other legitimate healing purposes? Or are they just recreational opioid users like the OP?

Maybe the best thing the Kratom Community can do to save their beloved plant is to stop using it... We're currently seeing how the skyrocketing use of DMT and Ibogaine by the young, fixated, exploratory crowd can so effectively draw attention of the authorities, and we aren't running a crusade against the late-teen/twenty-something crowd of DMT users who import five friggin kilos of MHRB a year, thinking that if they keep stuffing themselves into hyperspace in the same frail and afraid, stubbornly held together states that they'll receive some sort of magical transformation that will require no effort, or some massive download of information conveniently prepared in English (thanks Joe Rogan!).

This is how stuff works man... You can't stop stupid, you can't stop the inquisition, and you cannot stop your peers from endangering others' safety and convenience with their reckless use. If you really want to take responsibility, ensure a sustainable source for the drugs you use and protect your and your fellow man's birthright to participate fully in nature... Buy some good seeds of your favorite strain of Kratom and get your hands dirty. That will likely work far better than going toe-to-toe with the gun-weilding, court-supported drug law enforcers.

The only reason I can see that it's worth a call to arms to preserve the legal status of this plant is that thousands of people use it to enable themselves to make a living and live normal, fulfilling lives. It is the overuse and abuse of this plant by recreational opiate lovers such as yourself that puts these people at risk of unfair pain and poverty.

More than the help of the Nexus, the "Kratom Community" could use a good dose of help from itself.

 

[Yerba]

Self-policing is good policy. Movie theaters and places that sell video games have made efforts not to sell "adult" rated entertainment to kids, and have barely managed to avoid regulation by the government as a result.

Maybe if heads had taken swift action to keep salvia extracts out of head shops and gas stations (away from kids who would misuse it), the plant wouldn't have been criminalized in so many states or at all.