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The official Ron Paul thread
- Thread starter RayOfLight
- Start date
politics and economics are not my knowledge forte, but I am highly aware, so I'll keep this short and sweet...
Ron Paul has some decent insight on what needs to be addressed and fixed, but he will never be elected president, no matter how many people vote for him, because the old guys behind the curtains (the ones who really run the show) won't allow it.
Ron Paul has some decent insight on what needs to be addressed and fixed, but he will never be elected president, no matter how many people vote for him, because the old guys behind the curtains (the ones who really run the show) won't allow it.
FiorSirtheoir
Rising Star
christian said:
Really? I am going to jump in on this. "Government is superficial bullshit"? I am personally putting my life and my family on the line, trying to really deal with this so called superficial bullshit that is murdering people, that is throwing people into cages, brainwashing people to talk about the pathetic ramblings of 'western government'. The reason shit is the way it is here in the United States is because people are apathetic, and they value the material more than the spiritual. I would highly recommend a little reading in the Bhagavad-Gita, hell even the Bible. The entire point of the 'psychedelic mind' is bring back to this plane of reality what was obtained and applying it, to this world. This world is temporal, there is a higher existence, but guess what it is part and parcel to this one, everything is entangled and on the smallest scale; below zero point, is consciousness. We are more than our bodies, we are greater than this world, if we choose to be, and we are here for a reason!
Things are really fucked up in America, our governments are completely out of control, from the perspective of what was intended. What you see in Afghanistan and in Iraq, is exactly what has happened here, only our 'liberation or Operation Iraqi Freedom' happened 150 years ago, and that disease, that corruption is being spread all through the world.
There is nothing wrong with wanting specifics, wanting details, wanting explanation to learn, otherwise it is just a bunch of philosophical masturbation; "ohhh! I stroke you...okay, okay, okay...now you stroke me! Don't we feel better now that we have just vomited a bunch of tripe everywhere! It isn't going to have an effect on any kind of change, but it sure will keep people from climbing up that hill, now that it is all sticky and slimy". A messiah is not going to sweep in and save the planet, Ron Paul is not going to put America back upon the actual foundations of liberty and freedom, he may try in small ways, but you cannot continue building, upon and remodeling a house, or building a sky scraper when the foundation has been compromised.
Quit it with all the bullshit! If you really don't what to have an effect upon what is going on around you as far as the "superficial government" is concerned then keep your unqualified opinions to yourself. Frankly I am tired of hearing it, and it is not just here on the nexus - when you run off at the mouth about things you really don't understand and if you are really honest with yourself, your not really all that interested in; things you really don't want to engage in and search out, the only thing you are doing is muddying the waters.
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”
I am really not trying to throw anyone under the bus, truly. Everyone has the freedom of mind to make their own story, but I have honestly found that typically, false ego is a bitch and greatly interferes with the true self, and the really crazy thing is, the only mirror I have found to be able to see all the aspects of this false ego is Aya or Pharma.
"The truth is, all might be free if they valued freedom, and defended it as they ought... The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on Earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only to have the law of nature for his rule."
We do have a duty, and it is to one another, to fix this crap! We are hanged together or separately.
smokerx said:
hey, what ever helps you sleep at night.
I won't waste the energy.
my plan is simple....buy less, and use less energy. if more people followed this rationale,
it would put a huge strain on the economy, but would also hit the politicians where it hurts..
by undermining businesses and banks.
FiorSirtheoir
Rising Star
smokerx said:
Paul is probably just a tool to placate the libertarians, like Obama for the socialists - that is an unqualified opinion.
Voting in the current political venue in America is a waste of time, you have to attack the problem at its roots, otherwise we will fight this hydra until there is blood in the streets(to a significantly greater degree than there is now).
I'm quite calm...I have always been an intense person, it's in my nature. I must disagree with you...I do not think governments are superficial or bullshit. Throughout history, governments have organized numerous mass-murders, propaganda machines, institutions of slavery and countless other atrocities. Does that seem like "superficial bullshit" to you?christian said:
Look, here's the thing, the Nexus is a forum rooted in the Scientific Method, numerous Mods and Trav have laid this down in a variety of threads (since before I was a moderator). In fact it even says as much in the attitude:christian said:
The Nexus Attitude said:
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You do have evidence and can develop it significantly more than you have. If you simply present opinions with no evidence, people who are unaware of the horrors perpetrated by various governments (especially as we are an international forum) may have no clue what you are talking about. Nobody said we need CT's, in fact, we are opposed to CT's, this is one reason that you should cite evidence; so that people don't think it's a CT, another is so that people who are interested in or unaware of what you are talking about can look it up online and see for themselves, rather than relying on your opinion. My psychedelic mind is engaged in these thoughts because these governments are the main harbingers of the social and global problems that psychedelics have made me reflect on in great detail.christian said:
Ok, first allow me to say that I'm completely calm...now, how do we get evidence? Well, that's fairly simple. As I've already shown in several threads, Paul simply can't do many of the things he's promised; they don't lie within his powers as the president. That strikes me as amazingly simple and easy to prove. He is not honest as he has made numerous promises he cannot keep; hence he is making empty promises and as such, he is a liar (see the other Paul discussions for evidence). You don't need to vote him into power to know that the president does not pass the budget, or withdraw the troops, or abolish the Fed, so the assertion that he must be elected for us to know what he can do is wrong.smokerx said:
Now, I must say, I take SERIOUS offense to you comparing Bush to Hitler. George W. Bush has committed atrocities against numerous countries as well as his own people. Hitler murdered 10 million civilians in his death camps, caused the deaths of over 22 million troops, and total figures of WWII-related deaths come out to nearly 2 billion. I'm sorry, but their crimes are simply not in the same ballpark. As to what evidence he gave? There was plenty of evidence as to the kind of president Bush (and Cheney) would be. Look at his environmental policies in Texas, look at his legislation which allowed people to bring guns into churches (which arguably resulted in several deaths)...it's all there on the public record (Cheney is slightly more ominous because his policies in the private sector must be inferred from the business practices his companies and affiliates engaged in, but nonetheless, it's not a hard jump to make and facts/statistics are easily obtained), there was every indication as to the kind of president Bush would be. As to Obama, if you had the foresight to look at his campaign contributors, you would have seen that he was heavily (moreso than any other presidential candidate) backed by Wallstreet...indicating that he would bail out the banks and look out for CEOs, Banks and Insurance Companies (which also factors into the abysmal pass at healthcare "reform" ), so again, the evidence was there.
I believe I've demonstrated the kind of evidence that can be shown, both in my posts directly related to this thread, as well as in my replies to you and christian. As already pointed out, the Nexus attitude requires evidence for debate. Please don't tell me I have to accept someone's opinion, that's in direct contradiction to the Attitude (the only set of "rules" here). Because of what is stated therein, I feel that I was well within my bounds to ask him to leave if he wasn't going to contribute to the discussion.smokerx said:
I didn't decide he should get out of the thread, on the contrary, I told him if he could contribute posts based in factual evidence and support, he was welcome to continue, but if he was "not going to add to the discussion" then why should he be posting? I notice you omit his posts at this point which were essentially devoid of any relevant information. He didn't do anything "wrong", but he did fail to adhere to the Nexus policy of providing factual evidence in debates where such evidence is available. He could easily provide evidence, not to me or a1pha, but to the thread, to the readers, to the site as a whole. I see nothing unfair about that. He made a statement without evidence, he was asked to cite sources, he declined in a flip manner, he was further challenged for evidence, he continued to decline in such a manner, he was asked to either contribute appropriately or leave; now, what exactly is so unfair about that?
PS - I agree with everything Fior has said in these last several posts...well put, man.
smokerx
ThGiL fO TiRipS
Smokerx just farted anybody need evidence ? 
Come on Snozz I am sending you a big hug and lots of love.
I know the nexus rules but we can always go around it if possible nobody is being rude here and I believe it is allowed to express opinions here without talking about where it came from. All the things that come from heart are right to me. Those generated by brain should be questioned. I have always fallowed my heart and never needed any evidence and it always came out as good thing.
You see its all about hearts as you already said your self if I understood it right.
Love is the answer to everything and love is always love no need evidence just feel it with your heart.
That is why I stepped in when I felt the Christian was talking through his heart and you where asking him to start using his brain. Maybe he did not want to. I would not If I was in his sandals Maybe I got it all wrong but that was how I felt and I did not like that feeling. Only Christian can say If I felt it right or wrong.
That will be probably all from me now unless you would like to talk to my heart. No brain activity allowed today
Come on Snozz I am sending you a big hug and lots of love.
I know the nexus rules but we can always go around it if possible nobody is being rude here and I believe it is allowed to express opinions here without talking about where it came from. All the things that come from heart are right to me. Those generated by brain should be questioned. I have always fallowed my heart and never needed any evidence and it always came out as good thing.
You see its all about hearts as you already said your self if I understood it right.
Love is the answer to everything and love is always love no need evidence just feel it with your heart.
That is why I stepped in when I felt the Christian was talking through his heart and you where asking him to start using his brain. Maybe he did not want to. I would not If I was in his sandals
Maybe I got it all wrong but that was how I felt and I did not like that feeling. Only Christian can say If I felt it right or wrong. That will be probably all from me now unless you would like to talk to my heart. No brain activity allowed today
The evidence that smokerx has just farted is not conclusive but is highly suggestive that he has indeed passed flatus.The skidmarks, I think, would be accepted by most juries comprising of 12 good men/women!
(Smokerx-this is a joke; I cast no aspersions on the state of your briefs one way or the other:wink:
).
(Smokerx-this is a joke; I cast no aspersions on the state of your briefs one way or the other:wink:
).
smokerx, I love you too
It's not about people being rude, it's not about how much love is in your heart, it's not about people farting, it's not about making arguments that are then abandoned because they don't hold any water upon close examination.
It's about providing evidence in threads where evidence is required; evidence is required about phenomena that occur in consensus reality, i.e. science and politics, as per the Nexus Attitude. In these threads we cannot "always go around" this attitude as this causes these threads to deteriorate. I hope this makes sense to you and that you understand why this is the case.
Peace & Love
SB
The Nexus Attitude said:
It's not about people being rude, it's not about how much love is in your heart, it's not about people farting, it's not about making arguments that are then abandoned because they don't hold any water upon close examination.
It's about providing evidence in threads where evidence is required; evidence is required about phenomena that occur in consensus reality, i.e. science and politics, as per the Nexus Attitude. In these threads we cannot "always go around" this attitude as this causes these threads to deteriorate. I hope this makes sense to you and that you understand why this is the case.
Peace & Love
SB
FiorSirtheoir
Rising Star
christian said:
I know you were not talk to me specifically. I was addressing a general attitude.
Peace.
benzyme said:
My gut knows that many points Ron Paul makes are valid such as sound monetary policy and our butting out of the affairs of other countries by the withdrawal of the military. Even if the impossible happened and he got elected, Ron would be probably murdered by the CIA as I believe JFK was for stepping on the wealth of the few in charge especially those in the military industrial complex.
Ron is not part of the 'club' (none of us are either) of a few hundred at most behind the curtain Benzyme speaks of who really are in control. I can't cite evidence, nor can I argue eloquently on this topic.
However the pit of my stomach feels the truth. I have learned to trust this more that the mad rantings of my logical mind which is expert at creating illusions through my egotistical defense mechanisms of rationalization and self deception.
Well, if you look at the wealth disparity of the US, I'd say you have pretty good evidence. I can't find the stats for the top .1% at the present, but here's a good breakdown of the top 1%, 10% and 20% as of 2007. The top .1% is even more disproportionate (actually all of these figures have or should have become more disproportionate over the past ~4 years)...they are the "club", imo, this data gives a good general picture of what's going on.Rivea said:
Table 1: Distribution of net worth and financial wealth in the United States, 1983-2007
Total Net Worth
Year Top 1% Next 19% Bottom 80%
1983 33.8% 47.5% 18.7%
1989 37.4% 46.2% 16.5%
1992 37.2% 46.6% 16.2%
1995 38.5% 45.4% 16.1%
1998 38.1% 45.3% 16.6%
2001 33.4% 51.0% 15.6%
2004 34.3% 50.3% 15.3%
2007 34.6% 50.5% 15.0%
Financial Wealth
Year Top 1% Next 19% Bottom 80%
1983 42.9% 48.4% 8.7%
1989 46.9% 46.5% 6.6%
1992 45.6% 46.7% 7.7%
1995 47.2% 45.9% 7.0%
1998 47.3% 43.6% 9.1%
2001 39.7% 51.5% 8.7%
2004 42.2% 50.3% 7.5%
2007 42.7% 50.3% 7.0%
Wealth distribution by type of asset, 2007
Investment Assets
2007 Top 1% Next 9% Bottom 90%
Business equity 62.4% 30.9% 6.7%
Financial securities 60.6% 37.9% 1.5%
Trusts 38.9% 40.5% 20.6%
Stocks and mutual funds 38.3% 42.9% 18.8%
Non-home real estate 28.3% 48.6% 23.1%
TOTAL investment assets 49.7% 38.1% 12.2%
Housing, Liquid Assets, Pension Assets, and Debt
2007 Top 1% Next 9% Bottom 90%
Deposits 20.2% 37.5% 42.3%
Pension accounts 14.4% 44.8% 40.8%
Life insurance 22.0% 32.9% 45.1%
Principal residence 9.4% 29.2% 61.5%
TOTAL other assets 12.0% 33.8% 54.2%
Debt 5.4% 21.3% 73.4%
Source
Soulcrusher
Rising Star
christian said:
You realize they have census figures... Also demographic studies are very common place, many large corporations do them, for SEVERAL industries, real estate, education, medical, retail sector etc.... All are performed by various experts in their fields with certifications that let them provide EXPERT witness testimony if they need to do litigation work...
Is this a sarcastic comment? If so, why? What point are you trying to get across with this?christian said:
I gave a link to where I got my figures, which provides a source for their figures...feel free to fact check it and point out any errors in the statistics you come across.
Have a nice day
:d
Why rude attitude? I thought snozz's post was perfectly calm and respectful. When you say he was rude what do you mean? What exact part of his sentence? Give constructive criticism, not (what seems like) a confrontational post and smilie.
I would like to see you give a better argument why the figures "can be manipulated" in this specific case. Did you read the methodology? The source ? What is the specific problem you consider? Or do you distrust any source per se? You say "it must be deemed suspect", and how do you change from 'being suspect' to being directly trusted or distrusted? By looking and method and giving constructive criticism, right?
Otherwise if you just distrust without even checking the sources, then what kind of basis for arguments and communication do you give?
Here in the Nexus as you realized we have a scientific attitude. This means we work with sources to back up what we talk about. If you dont agree with a source, then explain why, and the feedback can be served for improving the conversation, but pure distrust for the sake of it doesnt help in taking conversations further.
I would like to see you give a better argument why the figures "can be manipulated" in this specific case. Did you read the methodology? The source ? What is the specific problem you consider? Or do you distrust any source per se? You say "it must be deemed suspect", and how do you change from 'being suspect' to being directly trusted or distrusted? By looking and method and giving constructive criticism, right?
Otherwise if you just distrust without even checking the sources, then what kind of basis for arguments and communication do you give?
Here in the Nexus as you realized we have a scientific attitude. This means we work with sources to back up what we talk about. If you dont agree with a source, then explain why, and the feedback can be served for improving the conversation, but pure distrust for the sake of it doesnt help in taking conversations further.
If you'd taken the time to follow the source link I provided, you would see that the statistics presented are not "government figures". They were actually generated by a professor at The Levy Institute of Bard College (a private institution). As such, I don't really understand what you're going on about. I never said figures can't be manipulated, but the onus is not on me to show how the figures I am presenting may or may not have been manipulated. If I present figures, it's because I believe them to accurate and to support my opinion; if you feel that the figures are incorrect, by all means, do some fact checking or whatever other footwork to expose the flaws.christian said:
I am not so dogmatic as to hold onto a position or set of numbers simply because I wish to be correct. If you provide good evidence or a good argument as to why the numbers are inaccurate, I'm more than happy to listen and acknowledge it. If you exposed a flaw in their data collection/creation methods I would be more than happy to acknowledge them as wrong and look for new supporting figures. I do not engage in these discussions to present untenable positions and cling to them dogmatically.
The link to the paper (provided through my original "source" link) is presented below:
Wolff, E. N. (2010). Recent trends in household wealth in the United States: Rising debt and the middle-class squeeze - an update to 2007. Working Paper No. 589. Annandale-on-Hudson, NY: The Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.