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The role of multiple boils in DMT/MHRB extractions

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Shaolin

Shaolin

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As I understand the heat has two roles.

1. Catalyst in a way, speeding up the reaction (migration of DMT alkaloids in the acidic solution)
2. Energy that helps breaking down plant material

All good but my question is why do people recommend three boils ?

I presume that 10 volume H20 (10g MHRB, 100ml of H20, 100g MHRB, 1000ml of H20, ...) can efficiently hold all the DMT salts (after all it's usually boiled down 3x ).

I have read that multiple boils do increase they yields but has anyone done a real comparison or is this a "conventional wisdom" ?

Thank you.
 
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I have seen the FAQ but the washing clothes is just "conventional wisdom".

Anyway I don't buy it totally. For instance I'm pretty sure that DCM doesn't need three pulls to get everything out (yet to test that theory) therefore concentration gradient is somehow dependent on the substances used in the reaction. Will Google the keyword thought. Thanks.

All in all, it sound logical but I'm still wondering if anyone has done any comparisons.
 
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I'm confused. As I understand we can't calculate distribution coefficient (K) since we don't have any hard data about DMT solubility in different solvents ?

This is nice though.

"Imagine that one extraction can recover 90% of the compound. A second extraction with the same
solvent may be able to pull out 90% of the remaining material. Effectively 99% of the compound
was recovered with two extractions. One large extraction would have only obtained the initial
90%. Many smaller extractions are more efficient than one large extraction".

In any case, one 90 min boil getting 90% is a decent tradeoff for the 3*3 hour boil and 99%. But would 3*30 minutes work as well ? Oh the lovely spirit of experimentation :d

Thank you.
 
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First of all, if you’re using powdered bark, you don’t need any boils at all. I just use hot water and I get excellent yields. I add near-boiling water and a splash of vinegar to my bark, stir, then allow the bark sediment to settle (settling takes maybe 20-40 minutes). I siphon off the liquid and reserve it for later reduction.

When removing the liquid, it isn’t possible to get all of it. Maybe 20% of it remains in and around the bark powder, so 20% of the dissolved salts remain in solution. A second “rinse” leaves behind 20% of 20%, which is 4%. A third leaves behind 0.8%. I do 4 rinses, leaving behind 0.16%. This means that my reserved liquids contain 99.8% of dissolved salts.

My guess is that most if not all of the DMT salts are formed and in solution during the first acidic rinse. The remaining rinses are done just to get it all out.
 
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I'll go further than that Gibran2, with MHRB I do ZERO boils and use room temp water!! My yields are always over 1% (and as high as 1.6%), so I see no need for messy time consuming boils. I save the 3x3 for caapi, cacti and DMT containing leaves.

My yields could arguably (maybeperhapspossible) be slightly higher, but it's just not worth the fuss to me for the extra 0.1-0.3%

Besides, I like extracting, so I aim for a decent yield. Superhigh yields, while scientifically satisfying, mean more product, which translates to more time before I can extract again!

JBArk
 
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I’ve discovered that well-shredded caapi doesn’t require three 3-hour boils. I do four 30-minute boils and get very good yields. More than that is a waste of time and energy. My guess is that if powdered caapi were used, no boiling at all would be required.

(As an aside, many salvia extraction TEKs recommend soaking salvia leaf in room-temperature acetone for up to a week! Salvinorin A is so soluble in acetone that it can all be easily removed via three 1-minute soaks in 0ºF acetone. Longer is definitely not always better!)
 
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If there was a really high amount of spice in the bark, say like 10-20%, the science behind 3 boil/pulls would sound necessary, but there isn't really much spice there, up to 2% in the most potent bark I've heard.

I think only one boil/pull with enough water is capable of taking the spice from finely powdered bark all at once.

Somebody tell me if I'm wrong (Because I'm sure I am :D )
 
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You guys seem to forget not everyone has magical elves drop off powdered bark to their door. Some of us have to leave civilization with a machette :D so unless you have a powder high heat and 1.5hrs is absolutely necessary. Yeap it doesn't matter how little spice is in the bark, whatever you recover each time is just a proportion of the total, never the entire thing. I hope that document explains it.

Please stop repeating 3hr boils, that figure is exaggerated. Hell even 1.5hrs may be overkill but that said how much work is it to leave something turned on? Very little.
 
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Eranik said:
If there was a really high amount of spice in the bark, say like 10-20%, the science behind 3 boil/pulls would sound necessary, but there isn't really much spice there, up to 2% in the most potent bark I've heard.
Click to expand...

There is a lot more than just spice that gets dissolved into the water.
There's some weird water soluble resin that gets pulled too. Among other stuff.
 
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interesting thread this.
i tend to do a one kilo a/b and have always went for the three boils method. i set a target of achieving a 1% yield. i have never once managed this with the three boils. 7g is the best i've obtained (and 5g the worst) when the naphtha pulls have finally stopped producing results from the initial basified reduction. to reach my goal of 10g i've always had to re-boil (usually twice more) and this never fails to give results often going beyond the 1%.
i'm pretty sure i'm doing nothing wrong with the initial boils, i'm using 85% phosphoric acid at ph4 and boiling for one and a half hours at a time.
my own (probably hopelessy wrong!) theory is that the results differ due to how fine the bark is pre-powdered. certainly i've noticed there's different consistancies to the gloop you're left with on straining after each boil with some powders. infact i've had to let stand and strain numerous times through muslin cloth to finally get rid of the brown silt which sinks to the bottom of my jerry can before i do the reduction.

am i doing something wrong here? i can always find something to occupy myself with during boils so the time factor isn't really an issue, my gas bill could be though!

any tips gratefully recieved!
 
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jbark said:
Besides, I like extracting, so I aim for a decent yield. Superhigh yields, while scientifically satisfying, mean more product, which translates to more time before I can extract again!
Click to expand...

I know what you mean:) . Most often I extract 50 g only. I change lots of things: solvents, acids, alcohols, extraction time, etc. IME, yields over 1% should be treated with suspicion. I few times I got yields around 1.8%. The product looked clean and white but was noticeably weaker then usual.

BTW, an extractor solves the issue of multiple boils very radically. In a few hours fresh hot solvent cycles through the bark 20 times or more.
 
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Trickster said:
...IME, yields over 1% should be treated with suspicion. I few times I got yields around 1.8%. The product looked clean and white but was noticeably weaker then usual.

BTW, an extractor solves the issue of multiple boils very radically. In a few hours fresh hot solvent cycles through the bark 20 times or more.
Click to expand...
Assuming you have good technique, differences in yields can be attributed to the quality of your bark more than anything else.

MHRB from the first vendor I ever used produced 0.7-0.8% of yellow spice every time. I tried another vendor and got yields right around 1%. My current vendor consistently sells a product that yields 1.5-1.7% of very clean white product (and for considerably less cost, too).

There isn’t such a thing as “weak DMT”. If you have a product that is noticeably weaker, then it must be contaminated/cut/diluted with something. The source of the contamination is either the bark itself (unlikely) or something you add (or a reaction product of something you add) during the extraction process.
 
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ozora said:
interesting thread this.
i tend to do a one kilo a/b and have always went for the three boils method. i set a target of achieving a 1% yield. i have never once managed this with the three boils. 7g is the best i've obtained (and 5g the worst) when the naphtha pulls have finally stopped producing results from the initial basified reduction. to reach my goal of 10g i've always had to re-boil (usually twice more) and this never fails to give results often going beyond the 1%.
i'm pretty sure i'm doing nothing wrong with the initial boils, i'm using 85% phosphoric acid at ph4 and boiling for one and a half hours at a time.
my own (probably hopelessy wrong!) theory is that the results differ due to how fine the bark is pre-powdered. certainly i've noticed there's different consistancies to the gloop you're left with on straining after each boil with some powders. infact i've had to let stand and strain numerous times through muslin cloth to finally get rid of the brown silt which sinks to the bottom of my jerry can before i do the reduction.

am i doing something wrong here? i can always find something to occupy myself with during boils so the time factor isn't really an issue, my gas bill could be though!

any tips gratefully recieved!
Click to expand...
Nope you're doing nothing wrong, it can be hard to get every scrap of spice out of non-powdered bark simply because the spice has to migrate a lot further to get into solution, extra time and heat and boils solves this problem.

A lot of crazy yields can be attributed to poor cleanup steps. Swim would rather not smoke NaOH and plant fats.
 
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gibran2 said:
Assuming you have good technique, differences in yields can be attributed to the quality of your bark more than anything else.
Click to expand...

All my experiments are with the same batch. Well, it may have degraded over more than 12 months, although I keep it in a freezer completely sealed.

gibran2 said:
There isn’t such a thing as “weak DMT”. If you have a product that is noticeably weaker, then it must be contaminated/cut/diluted with something.
Click to expand...

That is obvious. I did not call it DMT. We ALWAYS deal with "a product".

gibran2 said:
The source of the contamination is either the bark itself (unlikely)
Click to expand...

Do not think so. Any plant matter contains a wide array of substances some of which end up in your product, unless we use chromatography.

For example, if I apply very wide pH range during an extraction, many substances will be converted to base. Some of them may be marginally soluble in the NPS we use. Therefore, we will have them in the final product even if we use freeze-precip.

gibran2 said:
or something you add (or a reaction product of something you add) during the extraction process.
Click to expand...

I prefer to use standard extraction procedures and lab grade or better chemicals. With some experience this factor becomes insignificant.
 
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