Theory of DMT Entities

[a1pha]

burnt -- I can't speak for others, but I haven't read a single statement from you that came across sounding superior. Rational and thoughtful, yes. Thanks.

LLB -- I'm a little unclear with buddhist cosmology myself. Could you please 'enlighten' me to your understanding of it? Even in what I have read, none of it would be classified as 'imperical' -- even by a loose definition of the term.

 

[smokeydaze]

Really all I am saying in often a lot of words and a lot of posts is that.:arrow: The typical DMT experience/trip happens when DMT levels reach higher then average levels in your body and central nervous system causing an alteration in the way your brain is working thus altering perception thus making things happen that normally would never happen and causing us to gaze awe struck and ask what was that?

In its basically simple form yes.

But there is definitely more going on than just some wires been crossed over.. beyond this is where the answers lie - most probably never to be found.

Where does the idea that someone a long time ago programmed information into the dmt molecule? It doesn't even make sense. I don't get these ideas.

The universe has been around for 14 billion years and we Humans have only been around for 200,000 of those years. To think we are the only ones is the most naive and ignorant suggestion anyone could make. I'm not saying that's what you think, simply substantiating my skeptical point of view.

Because it does not make any sense whatsoever.

I say this to myself every time I have DMT.

 

[Dorge]

"Seriously though, these are complex things. There is no risk of any of us explaining anything away even if we do try to understand it deeper then our ancestors."
you miss my point...

 

[carruthers]

Lets actually talk about the brain for a minute before we give up on it. I'm no brain expert but I have an avid amature interest in brains and I don't see how it's impossible. Here's a few theories:

Our brains are modular composites of parallel processing units. Two really important units are the thalamus and the cortex. Sensory information from the environment is brought into the thalamus and processed, mixed with motor information and memory and sent to the cortex where awareness likely resides. Everything is mapped in parallel, so there are visual bits of the thalamus that project to visual parts of the cortex and auditory thalamus to auditory cortex et cetera. There are even really specialized mappings with corticothalamic feedback loops for written language or spoken language.

This constant, exquisitely balanced feedback between the cortex and the thalamus is mediated by serotonin signaling. Most of the actual communication between these modules relies on glutamate but the feedback is balanced by serotonin.
Psychedelics like psilocin and LSD are known to directly muck up cortico-thalamic feedback by interacting with serotinin receptors. If you change these molecules so that they no longer bind serotonin receptors they are no longer active.

Acute high doses like easily achieved with vaporized DMT may almost abolish normal feedback loops in the brain. I think under these states the visual cortex receives unfiltered information from all over the brain, even other parts of the visual cortex! TMKs hypothesis that you can see your sense of syntax may have a lot of truth.

Abstract 4 and 5 dimensional geometry is totally consistent with unregulated intercortical feedback within the visual cortex. Loops nucleate slow and play out rapidly with almost no dampening mechanism at play. Similar feedback loops are apparent in high dose psilocin visuals but are more dampened and can even be brought under the control of consciousness, to a certain extent.

Realistic visions of people and places with eyes closed may be spurious input from the hippocampus. Abstract symbols may be the language parts of the cortex firing on it's own or maybe it's receiving input from the auditory thalamus. Visuals cause extreme activation of the hypothalamus and are so infused with emotion.

Feebdack blown away and crosstalk takes over. it is not hard to imagine the mechanisms that might be at play. It takes a little work to learn about the brain but it is rewarding. makes trips better, less scary in a way.

Think about it: would you rather be kidnapped and probed by an inexplicable alien intelligence from dimension X or would you rather expose your visual cortex to direct unfiltered information from the core emotional parts of your ancient lizard brain? Both are difficult experiences but the latter may be much easier to integrate.

Lots of interesting stuff here. The dreamers may lament the defining of DMT in these scientific/neurological terms, but I believe it opens up another realm of speculation which is just as interesting and rewarding (but which the dreamers have less access to due to the amount of learning required to generate informed speculations).

I'm also willing to admit the possibility that some neurological phenomena are best explained as metaphors such as can be found in most of the world's religions. It's possible that the psychologically healthiest way for the human brain to live is to believe in God, which may cause beneficial changes in the brain's organization. By completely disregarding the spiritual canon we may be throwing out thousands of years of careful psychic exploration, which is shunned because it's described in metaphor rather than scientifically definite terminology. It's not only science that has value.

 

[deedle-doo]

I'm also willing to admit the possibility that some neurological phenomena are best explained as metaphors such as can be found in most of the world's religions. It's possible that the psychologically healthiest way for the human brain to live is to believe in God, which may cause beneficial changes in the brain's organization. By completely disregarding the spiritual canon we may be throwing out thousands of years of careful psychic exploration, which is shunned because it's described in metaphor rather than scientifically definite terminology. It's not only science that has value.

Agreed. Humans seem to need a sense of fitting into a larger spiritual narrative that binds other humans and the rest of the cosmos. This is a vital part of our social biology. It is OK for us to modify our spiritual narratives as we learn ever more about ourselves and the cosmos. I think our spiritual narratives should be free to go beyond our scientific understanding but it should not contradict or distort it. This is hard because most spiritual narratives are passed down as more-or-less dogmatic written traditions. It may be hard to update or abandon some precept of the tradition in the light of some strange and beautiful new knowledge.

We should always celebrate anything new we can learn about ourselves and the rest of the cosmos! I enjoy a harmony between my spiritual narrative and my scientific pursuits. Understanding the mechanistic underpinnings of consciousness will not make us all depressed or something. It will actually empower us with detailed understanding of our real strengths and weaknesses.

 

[smokeydaze]

Cortex this and thalamus that aside, are you saying we are solely accountable for these hallucinations? Their complex engineered forms and duties within the dmt realm are just a result of some mish mashed receptors in our brains, an expression of our own crosstalk? I understand how in theory this is/maybe how the experiences work, but does it really account for what happens.. Remember I'm not referring to pretty geometric shapes or fluffy clouds of cosmic dust. I'm talking about fully functional interconnected hydraulic machines of psychedelic vision that have purpose, direction and life driving them. I can't seem to (logically) stomach the fact these things are created just by me, the way I see it I'm simply the necessary hardware for the totally separate software to be played. But please, thoughts..

 

[deedle-doo]

Cortex this and thalamus that aside, are you saying we are solely accountable for these hallucinations? Their complex engineered forms and duties within the dmt realm are just a result of some mish mashed receptors in our brains, an expression of our own crosstalk? I understand how in theory this is/maybe how the experiences work, but does it really account for what happens.. Remember I'm not referring to pretty geometric shapes or fluffy clouds of cosmic dust. I'm talking about fully functional interconnected hydraulic machines of psychedelic vision that have purpose, direction and life driving them. I can't seem to (logically) stomach the fact these things are created just by me, the way I see it I'm simply the necessary hardware for the totally separate software to be played. But please, thoughts..

I think you sell yourself short. You didn't ever imagine you were capable of such effortless creativity. I think these states give us insight into how normal creativity works too. Very creative people can imagine these things and more without drugs. Likely these people are already set up for some amount of synaesthesia.

Brains are super powerful! Why should it be surprising that the same brain that can understand the mysteries of the atom can imagine complicated machines? Your brain is very capable of completely understanding really complicated machines. In fact, human brains invented machines.

SWIMs visions tend to be more biological or ethnic. Makes sense given what preoccupies SWIMs mind most of the time. Maybe these machines are a visual metaphor for the actual function of some other part of your brain. There are circuits in the cortex that seem to only exist for pre-processing information as opposed to sensory awareness. Maybe you are plugging the processing circuits directly into consciousness. Your consciousness has no real frame of reference with which to experience this processing and a machine might be one way to render it.

 

[smokeydaze]

Oh yes, I whole heartingly agree. These skeptical alternatives are a means of discussion and the aim of my previous post was simply to get your point of view. I completely understand and relate to what your saying. But still, hmm. For example, I consider myself a relatively creative person (check out my link if interested) but can't for the life of me imagine creating such beautiful scapes of functioning brilliance or see anything remotely similar represented by anyone else. They just seem tooooo amazing to be imagined by my brain, that's the basis for my nagging suspicion that these highly evolved and complex creations aren't ours. However, I have always had the same beliefs as you in that the experiences are simply us. I've always thought DMT is just a super hyper-drived version of our beings, as apposed to some other dimmensionnnalismplace. In every aspect possible though it is us, this I'm not disputing. But moving further forward from this is the skeptical theory. Although it is us, how this happens and the happenings of these happenings are all due to DMTs conscious creation by something - it is their masterpiece, their crowning glory, a gift to mankind. In short, this super form of being is made possible by the out of this world engineering put into DMT. The happenings/visions of the experience are just a part of the engineering. The fact we have subconscious input into the experience is just another feature of this brilliant substance. It is the nectar and absolute epitome of existence, and that doesn't just happen by chance.

Hmm, one could also say that by them I mean us and by us I mean that we are amazing creations. But, the question will still perpetrate.. who/what then made us. But none the less, lets just focus on who/what made DMT or are they the same person/thing.. aww im confused.

 

[carruthers]

Assuming dmt allows internal brain activity to be visualized, I wonder if the visual experience of dmt changes depending on how the brain is organized. Mathematicians and performance artists might SEE differences in the way their brains work. Instead of expensive brain scans we could simply ask the patient to describe their experience to see whether it's substantially different than a normal dmt experience. We could build up a database of trip reports from brain-damaged patients to discover correlations. DMT could usher a new generation of self-help books dedicated to diagnosing mental issues from dmt-space.

 

[burnt]

DMT could usher a new generation of self-help books dedicated to diagnosing mental issues from dmt-space.

Thats in a way what shamans do. There is validity to these ideas but I think the HOW and WHY is whats being disputed.

But none the less, lets just focus on who/what made DMT Wink or are they the same person/thing.. aww im confused.

Its really easy to explain who/what made dmt by looking at biosynthetic evolutionary pathways. All chemical substances that are biosynthetically produced can be explained this way. What drove their existence is the same as what drove our complex existence :arrow: evolution. This also explains why these funny little compounds in some organisms exist for defense and in other they exist as neurotransmitters.

I am not doubting that DMT can tell us more about what we are. Even make us more aware of what we really are by changing our everyday way of looking at things. But I must doubt that DMT is deserves the title pinnacle of our existence. It may be required for human perceptions to function properly but so are many other neurotransmitters. I must also doubt that the entities are real beings that exist externally from us because of the brains well known ability to construct images of people places and things that when messed up tells people the wrong things. Schizophrenia is an excellent example of this.

 

[۩]

in deep trance,
one can see the turf of other planets
with life, sitting, swaying like kelp
to the rhythm of the cosmos
casting consciousness
in beautiful formations.

This is a direct correlation with the bodhisattva, or monk.



in another trance, one could see these other beings who have mastered physics, consciousness, and send out these artificially intelligent bots that find anyone who enters hyperspace and downloads their information.



Possibilities.

 

[smokeydaze]

But I must doubt that DMT is deserves the title pinnacle of our existence.

Fair enough, so whats better than DMT then?

 

[carruthers]

But I must doubt that DMT is deserves the title pinnacle of our existence.

Fair enough, so whats better than DMT then?

DMT is unparalleled for personal psychedelic exploration, but will it produce the next Jesus, Gandhi or Einstein? These are singular beings whose effects have rippled across the entire human continuum. I would argue that the pinnacle of our existence would be achieving this kind of positive influence on a grand scale and acting as the catalyst for the next evolution of humankind. This is the work of a lifetime.

Many people believe that DMT will have a role to play in the next phase shift of human consciousness, but it's only one piece of the puzzle.

 

[deedle-doo]

Assuming dmt allows internal brain activity to be visualized, I wonder if the visual experience of dmt changes depending on how the brain is organized. Mathematicians and performance artists might SEE differences in the way their brains work.

This would be fascinating to study. I wonder how many isolated shamans have visions of whirling complex machines? My guess is their visions are more full of whirling complex plants and animals. So the quality of the experience is informed by culture. On top of this the uniqueness of the individual tripping brain and its environment informs the content of the visions. Certainly a complex thing to study but I agree with you that it could be incredibly valuable for the wellness of the human population if we did understand these things better.

 

[burnt]

Fair enough, so whats better than DMT then?

Well its not so easy to say what neurotransmitter is better then what other one or what chemical in nature is better then what other one because it varies so much. Regardless though it appears that dmt is a very minor constituent in the human body and other neurotransmitters certainly are found in much more abundance. But that doesn't mean it does not play some pivitol role, it very well could be critical to what makes us human no one knows.

The only way to really figure it out is to stop its production or make a mutant animal that doesn't produce it at all. DMT's role as a neurotransmitter is still in question but more interest is being paid to it and other small tryptamines and phenetlyamines as the trace amine receptor system gets a bit more attention in the scientific literature.

My point I guess is that I don't think just because when consumed it produces powerful psychedelic experiences means its essential for human existence even though it might be because it produces these experiences might not be the reason why. Its endogenous role may be more subtle.

Many people believe that DMT will have a role to play in the next phase shift of human consciousness, but it's only one piece of the puzzle.

I would say other psychedelics such as lsd and mushrooms have already had a bigger impact on at least western culture which is still reverberating throughout the world to this day. Will dmt play a larger role in the future? Maybe.

 

[smokeydaze]

My point I guess is that I don't think just because when consumed it produces powerful psychedelic experiences means its essential for human existence even though it might be because it produces these experiences might not be the reason why. Its endogenous role may be more subtle.

Oh maybe you misunderstood my statement. I wasn't saying it plays a pivotal and underlining role in our existence.

Was just stating that its the best thing in the world, for me anyway.

I DMT

 

[burnt]

Ah well then thats great :d

 

[smokeydaze]

Do I hear an amen?

 

[wake and bacon]

But I must doubt that DMT is deserves the title pinnacle of our existence.

Fair enough, so whats better than DMT then?

DMT is unparalleled for personal psychedelic exploration, but will it produce the next Jesus, Gandhi or Einstein? These are singular beings whose effects have rippled across the entire human continuum. I would argue that the pinnacle of our existence would be achieving this kind of positive influence on a grand scale and acting as the catalyst for the next evolution of humankind. This is the work of a lifetime.

Many people believe that DMT will have a role to play in the next phase shift of human consciousness, but it's only one piece of the puzzle.

That amen was coming from my mouth for this post

 

[smokeydaze]

I found this on the FAQ page and thought it was fairly interesting (take note of 5 ):

Listed below are eight suggested interpretations of the DMT experience which imply answers (true or false) to some or all of the questions raised above. Some of these, like the experience itself, are bizarre, but at this stage any idea should be considered since in this matter the truth (to paraphrase J.B.S. Haldane) probably is not only stranger than we suppose but stranger than we can suppose.

1) There are no alien entities at all; it's merely subjective hallucination. The DMT state may be interesting, even extremely interesting, but really there are no independently-existing alien entities to be found.

2) DMT provides access to a parallel or higher dimension, a truly alternate reality which is, in fact, inhabited by independently-existing intelligent entities forming (in the words of Terence McKenna) "an ecology of souls".

3) DMT allows awareness of processes at a cellular or even atomic level. DMT smokers are tapping into the network of cells in the brain or even into communication among molecules themselves. It might even be an awareness of quantum mechanical processes at the atomic or subatomic level.

4) DMT is, perhaps, a neurotransmitter in reptilian brains and in the older, reptilian parts of mammalian brains. Flooding the human brain with DMT causes the older reptilian parts of the brain to dominate consciousness, resulting in a state of awareness which appears totally alien (and sometimes very frightening) to the everyday monkey mind.

5) A non-human intelligent species created humans by genetic modification of existing primate stock then retreated, leaving behind biochemical methods for contacting them. The psychedelic tryptamines are chemical keys that activate certain programs in the human brain that were placed there intentionally by this alien species.

6) The realm to which DMT provides access is the world of the dead. The entities experienced are souls, or personalities, of the departed, which retain some kind of life and ability to communicate. The realm of dead souls, commonly accepted by cultures and societies other than that of the modern West, is now accessible using DMT.

7) The entities experienced are beings from another time who have succeeded in mastering the art of time travel, not in a way which allows materialization but in a way which allows them to communicate with conscious beings such as ourselves.

8 The entities are probes from an extraterrestrial or an extra dimensional species, sent out to make contact with organisms such as ourselves who are able to manipulate their nervous systems in a way which allows communication to take place.

These hypotheses can be expanded and are, or course, vulnerable to objections. No doubt other hypotheses are possible. These matters will not be resolved until we have more data to test these and other hypotheses"