theory's on DMT visions

[polytrip]

I like to hear some explanations (explanatory theories) on how so many people can have experiences with DMT that are so simmilar.
There is the A-'hyperspace and all the elfs are real'theory.
The B-'these are archetypical phenomena that are biologically (B1) or culturally (B2) or both ways (B3) programmed' theory. And my own theory (C) is that our brains generate more or less the same 'random' electrical patterns, caused by it's neural structures and the physical characteristics of the electrochemical principles on wich the whole functioning of the neuron is based. And that we just have to give meaning to this 'random' patterns. That's my explanation on how a stream of images can be so totally weird and incomprehensable and so 'familiar' at the same time.
But i realy want to hear more explanations.

 

[deedle-doo]

great question. I think the visionary qualities of the experience may be the easiest to tackle because we understand normal visual perception so well.

First of all, We can reduce your model 'C' into 'B1'. We can also reduce the whole 'B group' without losing anything because interactions with the environment change the structure and function of neurons and neuronal circuits changing their biology and the propagation of randomn noise through the system.

That said, I think you may be on to something. Neurons and neuronal networks are imperfect machines and generate a fair amount of noise. Electrical-chemical static. Allthough the noise is generated by individual neurons randomnly, it propagates along steryotyped neuronal circuits activating feed-back damping loops. This is part of how we mostly keep the noise out of concoius awareness. Perhaps part of the visionary experience generated by massive doses of tryptamine involves amplification of this noise up to the level of concious awareness? This is testable but may involve objectionable monkey vivisection.

It's familiar because it's made of your mind. It's alien because your not really supposed to be seeing it. Deep and primitive parts of your brain are sending waives of information directly into your cortex. Your sensory modalities are sending information to all sensory cotexes so you get synasthetic experiences.
The gain is cranked and wierd feedback tries to kick in.

It is amazing to me how effortlessly creative the human brain becomes in these states. People see such fantastic images they doubt the ability of their brains to produce them. Neurologists have started to address whether having unusual connections between neural circuits unnderlies 'normal' creativity with some promising results. Very creative people tend to be naturally synethetic for instance.

We need to use psychadelics as a tool to understand the origins of human conciousness and creativity.

 

[jamie]

I think that maybe its somewhere in between all of those. I mean, i soppose that its plausable that our everyday sober reality could bedefined by "C" as well.. I think that most of what we interprete is just random data that our brain tries desperatily to make sense of, and were so accustomed to the paradigm our brain produces for us that we accept it as "real", concensous reality. So one could say that this reality is subjective, secondary to the true ocean of fluctuating data that is all.. However that doesn't necessarily make this reality less "real" or tangible, even we ae secondary. Do you believe in YOU?? So on that level I guess any experience could be seen as "real", or just as well a random interpretation of data which our brains organise into a identifiable "whole". Perspective plays a key part in this dicussion in my opinion. I actually have days where imyself will slip back and forth between these 2 paradigms, but I feel the most balanced when I jsut accpet both,.. kinda touches on the dual nature of the universe we live in. Some days I will see it more as the cold hard science behind chemistry, others as the magical transformations of alchemy. So i would say there 2 sides of the same coin.. this is interesting, looking foreward to reading others opinions..

 

[polytrip]

Yeah, i agree that my own theory is just a specification of the B's. Anyway, i hope to read more theories on the phenomena. I have read so many things on this forum that sort of shocked me because i always thought that many dreams and hallucinations that i've had where just too weird and too strange...turns out that other people who sometimes even live on the other side of the planet are having the same dreams and hallucinations!!!
And often this are the dreams and hallucinations that are weird in such a specific way, that it seems just a chance of 0.00001% that anybody would have the same visions:shock:

 

['Coatl]

All I can muster is that we connect to this thing.... and we all connect to the same thing.

That's about all I know...

 

[polytrip]

[quote='Coatl]All I can muster is that we connect to this thing.... and we all connect to the same thing.

That's about all I know...[/quote]
That's another theory of wich A is a further specification then; DMT is some sort of connecting device.

 

[deedle-doo]

Whatabout how similar ancient art motifs are? Hellenestic motifs are strikingly similar to motifs found in ancient south america and asia. Art from these different cultures depicts different things but look at the filligree. The little detail work. There are unmistakable psychadelic tweedly-dees on greek pots and aztec mega-temples and the armor of Han soldiers.
Similar motifs are unleashed into conscious awareness of present day humans by a burst of exogenous tryptamines.
It'd be pretty cool if it proves true and tryptamines give us a window into the ancient heart of human creativity. Hard to test though.

 

[Cheeto]

I think its alot deeper than souly dealing with the brain, life exists outside the brain. Why a fall this way is because some things stand out too much to be ignored, like for example people tending to see aliens, in whatever form, that tell them crazy shit like were created by them. (DMT: Spirit Molecule), approved research by DEA.) To me thats just to strange, yet makes total sence. All the alien abduction's, UFO siteings, cave-man pictures of UFO's, myths of atlantis and alien contact. Not to mention i've personaly seen a few(UFO's not aliens), or what was tought to be. To me, it really makes perfect sence that we would be an expirement of aliens.....imagine if we became that advanced, where to travel between stars was as easy as going to the store, wouldn't you think humanity would have some expirements going on with life found throughout the universe? And then there is this, if we are there expirement, do you really think were the only ones?? How many more planets have they gave intelligent life to? When you think about the facts, which are things you see around the world, you know its fact many people claim to see ghosts, aliens, ufo's, does this whole theory really sound so far fetched, how about the fact that i didn't come up with this theory, i just put trust into so many trip reports comeing back basicly saying the same shit i am now. Any thoughts?

 

[jamie]

Yes I agree with coatl that we are all connected to this thing.. or place or places..whatever. My question is was it/were they already there before we discovered it/them, or did we creat it/them AS we discovered it/them??

 

[jamie]

I say this because in a way I believe that we create this reality, or at least our paradigm of what reality is, as we go along(evolve).. like all plants and animals, even the earth itself could each exist within its own "reality island", and all these islands really just add up to a bunch of peninsulas poking out of this trandimenional thingy.

 

[Cheeto]

Yes I agree with coatl that we are all connected to this thing.. or place or places..whatever. My question is was it/were they already there before we discovered it/them, or did we creat it/them AS we discovered it/them??

More thoughts from me...

well, i would think it would be a little more far out than the aliens being real, i mean for things to only exist as we discovery them. Thats not really a logical thought, i know people tend to look at that view, what if we create our own reality, but i don't see that as likely to be true. We do experience our on reailty, my experince is different from yours. Thats a human thing i think, always trying to place himself in the center. In this theory, weather you see it as souly one person or all humans manifesting together, your still saying that we are the center of everything, and nothing exsist outside us. I can see everything haveing its own personal experince of reality, but not its own separate reality. I guess really it could depend on your definition of reality, but truly reality is what is here before something comes along to experince it. Unless there's something other that you see i'm missing, please explain how you could make this theory add up to seem plausible.

 

[jamie]

Yes I agree with coatl that we are all connected to this thing.. or place or places..whatever. My question is was it/were they already there before we discovered it/them, or did we creat it/them AS we discovered it/them??

More thoughts from me...

well, i would think it would be a little more far out than the aliens being real, i mean for things to only exist as we discovery them. Thats not really a logical thought, i know people tend to look at that view, what if we create our own reality, but i don't see that as likely to be true. We do experience our on reailty, my experince is different from yours. Thats a human thing i think, always trying to place himself in the center. In this theory, weather you see it as souly one person or all humans manifesting together, your still saying that we are the center of everything, and nothing exsist outside us. I can see everything haveing its own personal experince of reality, but not its own separate reality. I guess really it could depend on your definition of reality, but truly reality is what is here before something comes along to experince it. Unless there's something other that you see i'm missing, please explain how you could make this theory add up to seem plausible.

Well, i see what you are trying to say, but i think you are trying to hard to rationalize.. to say that what is real is what is here before something comes along to experience it makes absolutily no sence.You seemto imply that some things are not real?? so what are they then? cosmic jokes?? It ties youre brain in knots it does:d ,HOW can you comprehend the experinced apart from the experiencer? they are one and the same.. I am not saying that there are not subjectivly "real realities" out there, just that everything is objective at a higher level, ther farther up you go the more everything seems to tie together.

WE are subjective as well, on this level. We are also objective, on higher levels. We create EVERYTHING. Everything is connected, everything is one and the same,..i know I am ME, but i have also been the planet and the universe, not metaphorically, but literally. I have experienced my own psyche split up into seemingly seperate selves, fractlas of who I really am in the subjective existance, and then merge back into a comparativly objective whole again.

I dunno if this makes sence or not to others, I tent to ramble on and on :lol:, but what I was trying to say before in my last post was that we dont really know weather these "beings" and places are subjective to us on this level, or if they are simply fractal representations of our own human psyche. If they are fractals of us on this level, than they would not have had the opportunity to exist as such on this subjective plane until we humans developed the neuro-electric technologies to "unlock" such dimensions of experience, ALTHOUGH, they would have always been present within objective, godhead conciousness.

It may help to view us as mini gods, who, through the study of alchemy, found ways to experience our seemingly whole selves as complete universes of many subjective experiences within our selves.

The alternative could ring true as well, I have no problem with the idea that these beings and dimensions we experience are seperate from us on our current day to day circuit of reality, and are much older or possibly younger than us as a species..even so, they would still be part of us, or us a part of them perhaps on a higher reality curcuit, or level.

Actualy , i think that its both. I have had completely sober "alien encounters" durring the night for as long as i can remember. They are my first memories of being... and I cannot deny this fact. On the other hand I have had the split psyche trip on many occasions, and i view tham as no less valid as well. I just think there is way to much going on to even begin to pretent that we can comprehend, let alone come to any sort of a conclusions. All I know is that we are all connected to this thing, liek coatl said. And thats a metaphore at best..all we realy have is metaphores.

 

[jamie]

[quote='Coatl]All I can muster is that we connect to this thing.... and we all connect to the same thing.

That's about all I know...

That's another theory of wich A is a further specification then; DMT is some sort of connecting device.[/quote]

Yes I totally agree, it is a connection device. Everything is a connection device actually, connection is the epitomy of linguistics, i think. But a connection to what? We could connect up to something, down to something, hell, even left or right to something, and out of that connection to that something, a higher insight or knowledge can be extracted, from which a new referene point of connection is accessible, to some higher or "newer" something.

Its like all of history is about the cosmic dance. We all dance in circles around this object, translinguistc in nature, confused shadows of what IS. So we dance and we dance and spurt out every singe discriptive tool we can, desperatily trying to paint the picture of what IS, yet nothing comes close. This object just shakes it all off and we watch in awe as our precious little metaphores drip off like water. So we quickly collect it all up and try again from a new reference point.

i think the real question here is where is it taking us? back to the self...?

 

[○]

[quote='Coatl]All I can muster is that we connect to this thing.... and we all connect to the same thing.

That's about all I know...

That's another theory of wich A is a further specification then; DMT is some sort of connecting device.

i think the real question here is where is it taking us? back to the self...?[/quote]

EXACTLY