There's no you.

[Lichen]

I've been reading through some old notes of mine and came across something a friend wrote for me. Now, this guy basically had a sort of epiphany last year and he said it has completely changed his life, his outlook and his approach to the world. He said that at the moment of the epiphany he literally felt physically different - glowing and amazing.

He wanted to share this information with everyone and I said I was very interested, so he wrote it down for me. The problem is... I just do not understand it.

Here it is:

There is no you. You, doesn't actually exist!
The thinker is the thought. You are not reading this, reading is occurring, (and you are not discerning whether or not to go along with this - discernment is taking place) without you.

The following sentences are wrong:

In order for there to be seeing, there must be a see-er.
In order for there to be doing, there must be a doer.
These are wrong. Figure out why they are wrong. There is no you. Not your hand, just hand.

So I went away and thought about this alot, and came up with:

There is no I, there is only a human body. The thinker, the "you", the "I", is a consideration. It is merely an imagined viewer (witness, see-er, doer, victim). Regardless, things occur despite observation. What is considered to be I, the thinker and viewer, is nothing. There is only happenstance, occurance, event.

If I don't exist, the person breathing right now (whom I consider to be I) does not exist.

He read this and said that I'm not quite getting it. He said:

I does not exist. Everything else does, including the eyes that are reading this. There is no me.

I really really worked at this, and did incredible amounts of thinking about it but never made any progress, I really just do not understand it.


I post this here so that maybe it can be of use to someone else or that perhaps someone can at least help me understand it. I am starting to wonder if my brain is just not hardwired to understand this concept.

 

[gibran2]

You might be interested in this:

http://www.theopensecret.com/index.shtml

 

[Saidin]

I understand the concept, but it is one of those things you can't really explain to someone, they have to figure it out on their own. What your friend says is about all that can be said, eventually it will 'click'

In your example, the body is breathing, but 'you' are not. The body exists, but 'you' do not. 'I' is a fiction, therefore I doesn't exist. There's just life. There's no you. You are literally the imagination of yourself. Whatever has been imprinted upon you in this world is who you are not.

There was a site dedicated to exactly this subject and they had a way of bullying you into getting it. The Ruthless Truth...but it looks like they got overloaded. Here's a blog by him about his journey and explains the idea in more depth. http://ruthlesstruthdotcom.blogspot.com/2010/10/thunder-and-sunshine.html

Good luck with it, pretty liberating once you understand it.

 

[Lichen]

I am really going to work at this, but man, I find it so frustrating. I read and read and read this stuff but there's no "pop", nothing clicks.

It feels to me like all people are doing is refusing to use the word "I" and nothing else really changes. I see no problem with saying "I", as it is the only convenient way to explain to people which person you are referring to.

 

[christian]

Burt explains it well...

 

[MooshyPeaches]

you can never really understand it for it would be only a definition of linguistics. you can see it, you can be it. infact that is all you are actually doing.

the ego wants to intellectually understand it as a concept, because being certain and knowing is comfortable.

there is nothing you can do to realize it either, no effort is required.

to work at 'it' and try to progress towards 'it' is creating the belief of separation from it, which reinforces the identity/ego/the 'me'

try to just breathe and see. notice the heartbeat. breathe and see the seer that can't be seen yet is you

 

[Shamasi Wiz]

Malarkey! You're totally you.

 

[christian]

It depends on who you mean you are: The Universal awareness which works through your body??
: Your consciousness??
: or your egoic self??

You as a "person" are operating from a deluded combination of Awareness to consciousness to egoic self. Freedom or True Realization, is to understand that you are everything, and not limited to anything. You are basically Energy. When you choose to try and understand yourself you realise that there is nothing to understand, just being. Unless you state that you are Energy or God, you are limiting your true nature, because you are everything and nothing in particular. Basically You cannot understand how great you are with the limited egoic thinking mind, you can only "know" that you are so much more.

You are much more likely to 'Know this' through a psychadelic experience, than be able to 'think this' understanding(with egoic limits).8)

 

[Lichen]

I read nearly everything on ruthless truth's blog (a monumental effort in itself), he has a pretty amazing story to tell and as much as I'd like to believe in all this (lets face it, it does sound a little too good to be true) I can't help but remain skeptical.

I've been thinking about this constantly, trying different approaches towards looking at it as opposed to syntactically thinking about it. I've tried go about my day literally believing it, but I was simply fooling myself.

I would be more skeptical, but the fact is - there is a lot of people all saying the same thing. That they simply looked at it, there's no you, the I doesn't exist and they became enlightened. A big claim, I know. This is not the sort of thing that should ever be spoken lightly about. But whatever it is, a lot of people are all agreeing that it works and that they want to share it with other people.

I'm going to stick with it, try different approaches towards it. Stop thinking about it as a problem, a philosophical concept, a thought experiment and start seeing that there being no me is credible if not probably true.

My problem: I don't see how accepting that I doesn't exist would change a single thing about my life.

My friend would say to me, "If there was no you, no I, what would the consequences of that mean?".

I have no idea. There' so much talk of freedom and liberation, but I don't see the connection between realising that the you is imaginary and being liberated from something. The liberation from the illusion of self? I already feel pretty liberated and free, I don't see myself as a barrier to this.

You folks seem to know a fair bit about this, could any of you confidently say that you are enlightened?

 

[Tek]

I can confidently say I'm enlightened, yes. However what that word ACTUALLY means, is horribly misunderstood in our current day and age. To 'get enlightened' you don't actually DO anything, nor is anything added unto you as a seperate person existing in time and space (it's not like suddenly going super saiyan, which was the naive way I used to look at it if any of you are dragonball Z fans). In reality, it is more as if something has been removed, a filter or way of looking at things that was just inaccurate. A burden of perspective was lifted. When seeing through the illusion of the self, what you're left with is the experience of life happening to no one in particular. It's just happening, and the thing you think you are, this body and mind, are just a part of the fiction.

Something that really, really helped me get my mind around the no-self concept was doing an exercise that Terence McKenna prescribed. In one of his lectures, he mentioned doing an exercise where he would ask the voice of the mushroom experience 'who are you for yourself?'. Have you ever done this? It's incredibly peculiar what happens and I highly recommend doing this activity the next time your deep into a trip. What I found sort of proved the no-self concept to me: that the voice, the presence in hyperspace HAS NO IDEA WHAT IT IS. Its a question that is absolutely perplexing to it, as if it just doesn't make sense to it. It doesn't know what it is, just that it is, and that's enough.

It was then I realized in a very puzzling way, that the way we look at things is so totally ass backwards that Earth should have been called bizarro world. See the thing is, from our perspective, events happen to things, cause and effect rules our understanding of the universe. So, we think as humans that 'well, stuff is going on and it must be going on to me since I'm the one who is experiencing it so therefore I must exist.' This is classic Descartes. What that blog actually describes really well is that Cogito Ergo Sum should not be interpreted as 'I think therefore I am'. I believe what it essentially says is 'thinking occurs', which is quite obvious really but who is doing the thinking? There doesn't need to be a thinker for thinking to occur. YOU don't need to exist for thinking to occur, which is very hard to understand and accept considering our western way of looking of things.

You say: I don't see how accepting that I doesn't exist would change a single thing about my life.

Do you see the inherent contradiction in that sentence? Ciarin on that ruthless blog would tear you a new one for writing a sentence like that lol. Think about what you just said, I mean really think about it and you might be able to start cracking at it a little.

YOU don't see how accepting that YOU don't exist would change a thing about YOUR life.

IT'S NOT YOUR LIFE!!! That's the trick, that's the secret, no one is living your life right now it's just happening all by itself without the you that you think you are. You don't conciously think about walking, it happens automatically right? Like right now, no matter HOW MUCH I think about taking a drink of coffee, unless I stop thinking about it and just do it a drink won't be had. So this 'I' that thinks about drinking coffee can't do a damn thing! EVER! No matter what, that thinking ego that claims its the you of your life is absolutely completely powerless to effect life at all. THIS is the human condition. This is original sin.

There is a reason that those who 'gain enlightenment' (hate writing it like that), very rarely talk about it. When an enlightened person is around other people who are 'not enlightened' the enlightened person automatically sees everyone around him as being enlightened. That's sort of how it works. When you understand that there isn't anyone here really, just the experience itself, and if you already understand this, you can't explain it to anyone else because you already know there isn't anybody else!!!!

It's not something that is easily explained, and re-reading what I wrote I feel like its such a weak way to present a relatively simple concept. You do not exist. Existence exists, but you do not. There is no you to enjoy or hate your life, there is just enjoyment or hatred of life. There is no you to love another person, there is just love. There is no you to get offended or hurt by the things others say because there is no you to hurt of offend. This is how it changes your life.

 

[AstraLex]

Tek, your description is amazing and resonates very well with me.

the voice, the presence in hyperspace HAS NO IDEA WHAT IT IS.

Haha, wow. You have no idea how strongly this resonates with my perception of the hyperspace experience. After initial establishing of communication with the Hyperspace-thing, I remember asking ‘them’ over and over again: “Who are you? Are you good, are you evil? What are your intentions?” and things like this.

No sufficient answer ever came and I became a little desperate at first: ‘Maybe there is no Hyperspace at all? Maybe I just became mad and now fooling myself?” Only later did I realize, that giving ‘meaning’ and ‘labeling’ things that happen to us, is a unique human feature, which is quite odd in the rest of the universe.

So nothing has a meaning, nothing is what you think it is. When you ‘get it’, you will also get the total and complete freedom to do whatever you want in you life. Therefore, in my point of view, all the enlightened people on earth have one thing in common: all of them follow their passion, their dream to the fullest of their ability.

You see, there is no pre-set way of how to live your life. People who become enlightened know this and live their lives to the fullest. People who are not enlightened yet, do not know this and are therefore not free, always looking for an idol or strong leader to follow.

Love to all of us.

 

[Floz]

When you get to the end of my post, don't ask any questions at all. Now think of it this way.

 

[Shamasi Wiz]

I can confidently say I'm enlightened, yes.

Hehe, I hope you're joking.:lol:Or I hope it's really fun and you use your enlightenment to make everybody happy.

I think we've each been given the perspective of being separate for a reason. One reason is to totally transcend our singular identity and perceive/experience the underlying unity of everything, where our selves are dissolved into the big, awesome whole. And the other reason is to discover and embrace our uniqueness, and to run with it and play our individual part in the big picture. Both are important, and I believe both should be pursued.

You're totally you. I wasn't joking about that. There are an infinite number of things that are completely unique to who you are, and an equal number of jobs the universe needs done that only you can do. I believe that life constantly wants the best shit ever to be happening at every level, but it's a constant process that each piece is working on. No matter how all-encompassing your perspective may be, there's always bigger. No matter how deeply you know yourself, there's always more to find out. And no matter how many things you've done and ways you've interacted with the world, there's always more to do.

We all have the ability to lift the veils and see the perfect unity that exists between everything, but it can always get perfecter.So we put on our blindfolds, forget what we've seen, and head out for new adventures. We struggle, we succeed, we love, hate, learn, and grow. We summon our own power to kick the ass we need to. Then after we're done, we see that we've been fighting that which is already us. It may seem meaningless, but we've just added such a unique and vital experience to life that the universe as a whole will be happy to have. That's my take, anyway. So I say don't kill your ego, but don't let it grow unnaturally big. Keep it in balance with the whole that it's part of.

EDIT:

That's my take, anyway.

Or that's the take that's being expressed by that which is not me.

 

[3rdI]

this thread is making my head hurt, hang on, there is no head, oh man im confused:?

ive been reading through the Ruthless Truth and while i find it quite difficult to ignore what a horrible Bell-esque type person Ciarian seems to be, it does resonate with what i have been thinking lately.

After a recent experience i have been entertaining the thought that who i am is not real, I dont exist, and that i am a self constucted invention of my own my mind to fit in with the world, and my self constucted ego is how i can best deal with the world on a day to day basis. (i know this is not a new idea, but its a new possible realisation to me)

This has made me think that the things i dont like about myself are not real and as such they can be disposed off with ease, if its not real then an aknowledgement of this should dispurse these negative aspect and my life will be better.

The thing that im finding hard to follow is this....

"There is no thinker, there is just thought"

It leads me to the Bell way of thinking that we are all one being/energy experiencing ourselves subjectively.

Is this the line along which Ciaran is going down???

(this probably adds nothing to the thread but i thought it might help me to get it down somewhere, i dont really have anyone to talk to about these things as my friends give me a wierd look and its suprisingly not the most excepted topic to speak of over the water cooler.)

 

[Tek]

Maybe this will help give you some perspective.

This entire universe, all that deep blackness we see in space, is like the inside of god's mind. Here on planet Earth, we are just one tiny dream or thought that god is having inside of his gigantic head, but the dream and the dreamer are never seperated. The dream is created inside of god's own mind, so how can there exist anything that is seperate from god?

Furthermore, if we are but a dream inside of god's head, then the thoughts the we assume are being generated by us, are not. If you created an imaginary person inside of your mind right now would he be capable of having a single thought all his own? Of course not, all of his thoughts would be your thoughts, but you could imagine him in such a way to where he BELIEVED your thoughts were his own. This is the illusion of individuality. Just like a dream, the thoughts and ideas generated inside of the dream are the dreamer's alone, not the subjects or objects in a dream. Existence itself is the only thing that can produce thought, but since existence is everywhere all around us, thought is constantly happening, we only assume it is we humans that are responsible for this process.

I like to think a lot about Alan Watt's concept of nothingness. It's not the type of nothingness that when you close your eyes nothing's happening and it's just blank darkness. Instead the way he thinks about nothing is more like the nothingness of space which clearly has things in it. The nothingness needs to exist for something to exist, if for no other reason than to serve as a background for something (the darkness of space brings out the light of the stars and planets as an example). Now, what easier and more carefree existence could there be then being nothing at all? But at the same time maybe after a long 'time' (time doesn't exist) of being nothing, the totality of being might want to pretend to be something for awhile, but that would require being to forget that it was nothing and convince itself (through filtering it's omniscience via an organ like the human brain) that it actually was something.

When you really get down to the core question of 'who am I', stripping away all arbitrary things like occupation, sex, race, etc. what are you really left with? Something that cannot be defined, and if it cannot be defined what you are can you even call that something? Clearly, existence IS real. It's happening right now all around, but for it to exist and be real do YOU have to exist, as a tiny human pretending he is seperate from the world around him?

The best thing you can do to really try and test this for yourself, is just look around. Just LOOK around, and tell yourself even if only as a thought experiment 'I do not need to exist for this experience of life to be real'. Existence is it's own thing, and thankfully we are all a part of this grand thing and never seperate from it other than by our own perceptions. And once it happens one time (and I'm right with Ciarin about this), it's over. You only need to see through the illusion one time for it to alter you in such a way that the ego can never regain it's prior dominance. It might take a long time to process, and the ego might come back in oscillations, but it's never the same. Once you see the truth, deception just doesn't have the same power over you and your ego assumes a diminished role in your life, operating in the background as it always should have been doing since the dawn of human history.

I of course must put the disclaimer here though that this is all my own study and body of work. It has proven itself to me in such a way that I can no longer deny it's reality, however I'd also hate to be one of those people who speak in absolutes and alienates people as a result. So take what I say and if it resonates with you take it in, but if not throw it out. My way is probably not your way and that's always something to keep in mind.

All paths lead to the same place imo.

 

[3rdI]

cheers Tek, much appreciated.

EDIT-

It has proven itself to me in such a way that I can no longer deny it's reality

was this proven to you unassisted by entheogens or was it through your work with these substances that you came to these conclusions?

cheers

 

[Shamasi Wiz]

The dream is created inside of god's own mind, so how can there exist anything that is seperate from god?...
If you created an imaginary person inside of your mind right now would he be capable of having a single thought all his own?

To the first question I say that god is just that cool, that capable, and masterful at creating paradoxes. While each creation will always remain united with its creator, they're also completely independent in a variety of ways. You have complete freedom to think and act however you seem fit, regardless if it's in tune with god's wishes for you or not. You can witness this all the time. If you've had the unity experience then you know it's full of love to its deepest, most beautiful expression, yet our individual acts are not always in harmony with that. I believe it's because we've been given the real gift of independence, not just an illusion of that. We're at our best when we're in harmony with the whole of nature, yet we're capable of horrible things when we fail to see our connection to everyone and everything. It's all choice, and I believe that we can even surprise god with our choices, and that's the way god prefers it.

And to the second question I say absolutely yes. I believe we're each co-creators, and we're bringing new things into existence all the time. We've been able to observe thoughts as waves that can be measured physically. So they continue on even after our attention is taken away from them, independently interacting with the world at large, gaining their own experiences, growing into something far beyond what they were when they left our head. We sent them on their path, and they will forever be connected to us, but their freedom is real;we've let them go, probably to return in a new form one day. So I think that if you've created something as elaborate as an entire character in your imagination, then with or without your constant intention it will grow and be able to do things and think thoughts that clearly aren't yours and could absolutely surprise you. A tree creates a new tree out of itself, but that new tree is not simply the old tree. It's something new.

Just LOOK around, and tell yourself even if only as a thought experiment 'I do not need to exist for this experience of life to be real'.

I may be wrong, but I have to disagree with this. You can pick any moment to look around at, and without you it wouldn't be what it is. Without your unique perspective it would be something completely different. You color your entire world with your specific set of senses, your memories, your expectations, etc. So life can be real without you, but it can't be exactly as you are witnessing it without you, and the whole of life would be incomplete without your personal perspective. Like I said, I may be wrong in this, but I've also come to my own conclusions through my own thoughts, feelings, and experiences(and the unity experience is undeniably more deeply affecting than anything else can be).

 

[hixidom]

It's like believing materialism. I probably know a dozen people who claim to be materialists, but when probe further into their beliefs about consciousness, it's apparent that they don't actually believe what they claim. When you realise that everything is caused by particles bouncing around, you are forced to believe that thought, perception, ego, and thus choice do not exist as we imagine them to.

 

[Shamasi Wiz]

When you realise that everything is caused by particles bouncing around, you are forced to believe that thought, perception, ego, and thus choice do not exist as we imagine them to.

How did you come to that realization? I'll buy the concept as soon as a physicist can predict my next move, but as far as I know(which isn't that far) there are still loads of mysteries that science hasn't figured out yet, and there's still plenty of room to fit free will into their unbreakable laws.

But even if you are just a piece of shrapnel flying along a predecided path set into motion by a giant explosion billions of years ago, wouldn't you rather pretend that's not the case? You can't deny that you prefer to feel good and be happy, and living your life as if it means something, as if your choices and actions can make a difference in the world will deliver a much more exhilarating experience than if you see yourself as pre-programmed robot. All of the bad shit that happens in your life will seem a lot worse, because you know you've played a part in making it all happen. But all of the fun, exciting, and glorious things will be so much more rewarding because you know they came from your will and effort. And if you practice following an intent of any kind, and acting as if you can change things, then it becomes rather obvious that you have a certain amount of control over the events that are happening in your life.

So even if it's all bullshit and you're just acting out the inevitable collisions of gazillions of particles, at least you can feel good about the imaginary ego you're attached to for giving it a shot and trying your best, eh?

 

[hixidom]

First of all, physicists don't make the laws; nature does. Physicists just study nature to try to figure out what those laws are. Secondly, if reality is materialistic, then my pretending otherwise is futile. In fact, if reality is materialistic, then I can't pretend or prefer or feel anything because there is no "I". I can't see myself as anything because there is no I and there is no sight, just particles bouncing around, occasionally causing sounds to come out of my mouth such that of the phrase "but I feel conscious!".

Not to mention that free will is kind of an absurd idea when you consider that time is a fixed dimension like the other three dimensions of space. I can imagine many possible varieties of reality that would adequately reflect my experiences and, though most of them make free will impossible, they are all elegant and beautiful.