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THH and Cacao

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Jorkest

Jorkest

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SWIM just took 60mg of THH HCl with about 2 grams of cacao beans..within a few minutes he already started to feel the effects..kinda rushed up on him..it feels pretty nice so far!

UPDATE: SWIM is also getting strange little visuals here and there..they seem to pop up..and then go away...slightly colored...SWIM is surprised how quickly and how powerful this combo is...he wasnt expecting 60mg of THH HCl to have this effect..very nice!!
 
Very interesting experiment Jorkest. That’s one that SWIM is going to try.

I assume that was taken at the same time orally?

Is that the first time SWIY noticed visuals from THH?

SWIM has had visuals from THH HCl alone a few times (doses were 70 mg sublingually, 100 mg sublingually, and also at 300 mg orally). Come to think of it, SWIM drinks chocolate milk a lot so maybe he had chocolate milk around the same time these visuals happened. He hasn’t been taking note of his chocolate intake. He drinks chocolate milk nearly every day.
 
This is a very neat experiment Jorkest. There are many fascinating compounds in cacao. Including several cannabinoids, caffeine, theobromine and other interesting compounds. Chocolate has also been shown to increase endorphin levels. I am curious if the THH is potentiating the effects of any of these compounds. Additionally caffeine can aid in absorption of drugs, (maybe theobromine too) thus if both were taken orally the caffeine may have allowed a larger amount of THH to be absorbed and thus increasing the THH effects. Maybe even a combination of potentiation and enhanced absorption!! I wonder what the Mayans and Azetecs mixed with there CACAO drinks. Did you know the cacao was used as a currency in mesoamerica?
 
Cacao actually has a strong synergistic effect with MAOIs in general. It's interesting (and quite stimulating) when mixed with some ground rue.

A recipe I got from the ayahuasca forums: Pour a half-cup of hot water over 2 g ground rue, stir for 2 minutes, and filter. Then add cacao (~1.5 Tbsp) and add milk and sugar as desired. The short steping time of the rue, combined with the cacao, means that the beverage actually tastes decent. The effects are rather long-lasting, and some people report difficulty getting to sleep when this combo is taken in the afternoon.

Here's a link to the aya forums thread discussing the combo.


Bufoman, what cannabinoids do you believe occur in cacao? Anandamide is a cannabinoid receptor agonist, but it's not a cannabinoid (and as far as I'm aware it will not cross the blood-brain barrier significantly when taken orally).

As for what the traditional admixtures were, chile peppers were often added. I've found some anecdotal reports (one in the above link) claiming that this mixture does produce some more substantial effects.

Cacao by itself seems to do fairly little, but it really shines in some combinations (especially as the raw nibs)
 
yes the beans SWIM had where chewed up as fine as he could(not hard)..with a spoonful of cereal(honey bunches of oats w/ milk)
with the THH HCl sprinkled on top of the spoonful..haha it wasnt the most tasting concoction..but it wasnt bad either..

he says he hasnt really noticed too many visuals from just THH..other than the slightly sparkly effect it has...

these visuals were strange...he was petting his cat..and saw red ribbons kinda flowing down her body..for a split second...he feels amped up..but not overly stimulated..and feels really nice..

the visuals are hard to describe..they are kinda like overlaying things..but only when hes changing the focus of his eyes from one place to another..

he is going to try this combo with harmine and then harmaline to see what the difference could be..perhaps with the cacao the harmaline wont be so sedating..and make it a little clearer..would be useful because harmaline is a bit more powerful than harmine and thh...he says he may start with 40mg of harmaline..and maybe 60-80mg harmine...

2-3 grams of cacao seem just about right...he doesnt think it would be as pleasant with a higher dose..

its been about an hour and a half..and the effects are still fairly prominent...though also subtle
 
Entropymancer said:
Cacao actually has a strong synergistic effect with MAOIs in general. It's interesting (and quite stimulating) when mixed with some ground rue.

A recipe I got from the ayahuasca forums: Pour a half-cup of hot water over 2 g ground rue, stir for 2 minutes, and filter. Then add cacao (~1.5 Tbsp) and add milk and sugar as desired. The short steping time of the rue, combined with the cacao, means that the beverage actually tastes decent. The effects are rather long-lasting, and some people report difficulty getting to sleep when this combo is taken in the afternoon.

Here's a link to the aya forums thread discussing the combo.


Bufoman, what cannabinoids do you believe occur in cacao? Anandamide is a cannabinoid receptor agonist, but it's not a cannabinoid (and as far as I'm aware it will not cross the blood-brain barrier significantly when taken orally).

As for what the traditional admixtures were, chile peppers were often added. I've found some anecdotal reports (one in the above link) claiming that this mixture does produce some more substantial effects.

Cacao by itself seems to do fairly little, but it really shines in some combinations (especially as the raw nibs)
Click to expand...

i was looking at those threads yesterday and dug up that recipe as well(fast rue tea)! i posted a few things in the Sober in DMT realm(not sure if its that exactly) thread. but what SWIM is really interested in was the posts about how it potentates dmt as well..

druiddream said that with 2g rue and 2-3g cacao with 1g chaliponga gave good effects! that is quite the increase in effects!

another thing they were talking about was that perhaps there are compounds in cacao that are destroyed by MAO's and that perhaps they are becoming active with the inclusion of an maoi
 
Entropymancer said:
Then add cacao (~1.5 Tbsp)
Click to expand...
You sure it did not say ~1.5 teaspoon instead?

2-3 grams of cacao seem just about right...he doesnt think it would be as pleasant with a higher dose..
Click to expand...
For me it seems like I build tolerance to the pleasant effects of cacao if I take it daily. hoffmane on the aya forum pointed out that it seems to have cross tolerance with coffee and mate. Not sure if this tolerance has any effects on the dmt potentiation.
 
Dagger said:
Entropymancer said:
Then add cacao (~1.5 Tbsp)
Click to expand...
You sure it did not say ~1.5 teaspoon instead?

2-3 grams of cacao seem just about right...he doesnt think it would be as pleasant with a higher dose..
Click to expand...
For me it seems like I build tolerance to the pleasant effects of cacao if I take it daily. hoffmane on the aya forum pointed out that it seems to have cross tolerance with coffee and mate. Not sure if this tolerance has any effects on the dmt potentiation.
Click to expand...

that would be interesting to find out
 
Cannabinoids can refer to any CB1 and CB2 agonists although many people use the term to describe the olivitol-terpene compounds found in the cannabis species. I did some of my undergraduate research on endogenous cannabinoid derivatives. Anandamide, N-linoleoylethanolamine and oleamide are found in chocolate and believed to play a role in its psychoactivity (Maybe minor? although for myself at least, chocolate certainly has a minor mood altering affect that is different from sugar. All these compounds cross the blood brain barrier. They are active in animals (injection) and are highly lipophilic (check out the structures). Oleamides effects on CB1 are unknown last I checked however it does act as an antagonist at FAAH thus increasing levels of endogenous cannabinoids by inhibiting their degradation sort of like an MAOI for cannabinoids. While these compounds certainly cross the BBB whether they are degraded by first pass metabolism and which enzymes are responsible for this is another question thus you are right that they may not be orally active or weakly so but this is not because of an inability to cross the BBB, these compounds are actauly derived form cell membrane lipids. Thus if a compound could block their degradation in the body it would render them orally active. This is fascinating to learn about the activity of MAOI and Cacao I must try this combo out.
Check out the following sources:


And

Nature. 1998 Dec 17;396(6712):636-7.
Brain cannabinoids in chocolate.
 
I picked up some bakers unsweetened dark chocolate and and a jar of pure cocoa powder 3 days ago, and have been drinking cups of it with stevia and eating the bars for 2 days now:d ..I love the effects, and I just picked up 30 grams of chali so i think I will try that combo in the near future as well..
This stuff is also really pleasurable to drink before and after smoking cannabis...
 
I'm pretty sure its not those cannabinoids but rather the theobromine in chocolate. SWIM also gets potentiation from kola nut with HBWR and also with bufotenine. Kola nut contains mostly theobromine and caffeine and none of that other stuff in cocao. So I’d be pretty surprised if any of the other compounds have anything to do with it. Also, they are in such small quantities in cocao that they are probably inactive.

Pure theobromine produces euphoria, tingling sensations, and increases the effects of all hallucinogens SWIM tried it with. He hasn't tried it with DMT or ayahuasca though.

Has anyone tried the ayahausca combo with theobromine instead of cocao? I’ll bet it works just as well.
 
Most hallucinogens cause slight vasoconstriction. One reason I think it's the theobromine in cocao is that it’s a potent vasodilator and a stimulant. The vasodilation effects will open up the blood vessels allowing more energy to flow into the visual cortex which is responsible for the visual effects hallucinogens produce. Also, the tingling effects indicate that theobromine has a stimulant effect on your senses. This should also improve hallucinogenic activity. Theobromine improves your sense of touch, and that's one reason it is used as an aphrodisiac, besides its effect on blood circulation also being beneficial for sex.
 
While it is a good thought the fact that Theobromine is a vasodilator and thus should increase cerebral blood flow is not so simple. Vasodilation will decrease Mean arterial blood pressure, this could actually decrease blood flow to the brain as the brain due to its unique position requires a higher levels of pressure to acheive adequate blood supply (counteracting gravity). However vasodilation at the capillaries would increase the blood flow to the brain, it is hard to say which effect would win out with out a controlled experiment. In other tissues you are right vasodilation allows greater blood flow. Do you know of any studies that have been done regarding Cerebral blood flow and Theobromine?

Theobromine also inhibits the breakdown of cAMP. Thus it may be this effect which acts to enhance the effects of hallucinogens or other molecules. I am not sure specifically which effects of HA or other drugs are cAMP mediated although some 5-HT sites are known to be coupled to cAMP production as are many drug targets. Additionally down stream effects of these drugs may also involve cAMP thus any decrease in its metabolism should increase the duration/intensity of any such subjective effects which cAMP mediates. This seems like a plausible theory for the enhancement of drugs effects by theobromine, my guess and the general consensus of the "chocolate" scientific community is that other compounds in the chocolate are also psycho-active. And thus the THH, which is a weak MAOI but significant 5-HT reuptake inhibitor, but when administered with MAOIs, may act to enhance the effects of these additional compounds. Coacahuasca anyone?
 
There are also flavanol compounds in chocolate that are said to increase blood flow to the brain you may have read about these compounds. Caffeine and theobromine are actually cerebral constrictors (See 1 for caffeine source). This is one of the reasons caffeine is added to pain drugs as this effect helps combate migraines (and enhanced absorption). I will quote Langes's Basic and Clinical Pharmacology: "Methylxanthines... In large doses these agents also relax vascular smooth muscle except in cerebral blood vessels, where they cause CONSTRICTION." Thus I do not believe that you saw studies regarding the brain maybe they were other organs? Additionally as I stated a vasodilator effects on CBF are not so clear cut, that is all I said, the mechanism that regulate CBF are different than those that regulate other tissues, this is due to the unique position of the brain as well as its important functions.

You may be right regarding the psychoactivity, I admit I honestly do not know what is responsible for chocalate's pscyhoactivity, I have never tried pure theobromine and would gladly if ever given the oppurtunity. There are many however who do think that there are additional affects which are not mediated solely by the Methylxanthines present. I will do some more research and see what I come up with before I make any decisions. I would gladly do such an experiment if I ever have the chance. I have tried oleamide as well as given it to mice and it is certainly active. One would have to try pure theobromine as well as caffeine with the said MAOI's and see if the effects match that obtained from straight chocolate combined with the compounds. Any sources for pure theobromine?

Some articles to check out:

Cerebral vasoconstrictors and postdural puncture headache: the big squeeze
I. Rice1, D. Radhakrishnan2, C. Nelson-Piercy2, C. Oliver2 and S. White

Cocoa flavanols may boost blood flow in the brain

Flavanol-rich chocolate may boost blood flow in the brain and reduce the risk of dementia and stroke, Boston-based researchers have reported.
www.nutraingredients.com www.nutraingredients.com
 
I forgot chocolate also has significant levels of phenethylamine. While claimed to not be orally active taken with an MAOI would certainly allow it to be orally active. In fact a clinical study was done administering PEA with serlegiline a MAO-B inhibitor, this produced improvements in mood. While the harmaline compounds are classified as RIMAs MAO-A inhibition would likely also increase PEA levels as this whole MAO-A/B thing is all mixed up. Also I have taken PEA as is multiple times, and there was definetly some mild stimulant effect maybe not the most intense but I was aware of some differences. PEA taken with MAOI and THH would certainly have an effect although care should be taken. Check out the studies before preceeding ...

Buckland PR et al. Does phenethylamine have a role in schizophrenia? LSD and PCP up-regulate aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase mRNA levels.

Sabelli Et al. Sustained antidepressant effect of phenethylamine replacement.
 
if you search on google for theobromine there is a chemical supply that sells 100g quantities..a little pricey and i doubt you would ever need 100g
 
so about 9-10 hours after taking 60mg of THH hcl and 2-3g of raw cacao beans...SWIM is still feeling mild pleasurable effects..vision is still 'starry' and he is still subtly stimulated...he was quite sociable with people around..excited but calm..no jitters like he gets from coffee..just a very nice mild stimulation..and a mild tingly sensation...hes probably gonna be up for quite a few more hours as well..

next time SWIM will try this with some quantity of dmt fumarate..but we will see when he has time to do so
 
Please read the articles these compounds decrease blood flow to the brain not stop it. You would not be stupified that is ridiculus statement that would only occur with high high levels of a vaso-constrictor that would cause gangrene which can occur from several ergot type compounds. As stated vasodilation of blood vessels can actually decrease blood flow to the brain, this in conjunction with vasoconstriction of local cerebral capillaries will decrease neural blood flow. I am not making this up, please read the articles this is not my theory. These compounds decrease cerebral blood flow. Anyway these effects are likely to have little to do with their psychoactive effect as these vaso-effects are reported to occur at the HIGHER doses. The psychoactive (stimulant) effects are known to result from their activity as increasing cAMP levels and mainly as antagonists at the adenosine receptors thus causing cerebral excitation by blocking adensoine mediated depressant effects.


Additionaly as I stated PEA also likely plays a role in chocalates effects. Would you agree? I acknowledge theobromine plays a role however I feel other compounds do as well especially in conjunction with MAOIs where they may be rendered orally active and even potenitated.
 
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