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THH and Cacao

Migrated topic.
bufoman said:
You don't believe them? Well I can't argue with someone who doesn't believe in science.
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Now I am, “someone who doesn't believe in science”, because I disagree with you and the interpretation of that study?

This is really getting off topic. We’re supposed to be talking about THH + cocao, not arguing about how theobromine dilates or constricts the capillaries in the brain. If you want to continue this argument please take it to another thread and I can explain to you how the circulatory system works and why I don’t agree with you at all. I’m not going to talk about that in this thread anymore. Take this argument to another thread about how theobromine effects the blood vessels in the brain (arteries, veins, and capillaries).
 
Jorkest said:
ANYWAY back to the topic..it is now about 15 hours since SWIM took the 60mg of THH HCl and the 2 raw cacao beans...and he is still mildly stimulated..and euphoric..granted he smoked some weed recently but it hasnt made him tired..he can feel his body getting a bit sleepish but his mind still feels like it wants to be active..even though deep down it knows it wants its pillow..

he felt like he was able to get a lot done today..but this combo seemed to make it somewhat hard to concentrate..but only sometimes..not exactly something to do everyday..but really nice on the occasion...especially if you have to stay awake and alert for a long time...would probably be a good study aid...

he also noticed a few times when looking at text on a screen.. the letters would stretch apart from each other horizontally and then close back together..this was very subtle and started happening later in the night a few minutes after smoking some ganja..it looked like they were both moving together and apart at the same time..slowly though

hes kind of surprised that he was getting visuals when he payed attention..very slow moving..but they also have lasted all day and into the night..the weed helped obviously..but he doubts that 60mg of THH orally would still be doing something 15 hours later without the cacao..with not much sign of giving up too soon...he also has had slightly colorful CEV's..kind of like static with colored strips flowing about..he noticed a strip visual while petting a cat too..happened early on..

this has been quite surprising and he is interested in trying it out with DMT...he feels like it most certainly will be intensified by the cacao...and he thinks only a little bit would really be needed...its almost like he can feel how easily dmt would totally ramp up the visuals and body sensations..

probably a fairly speedy trip..but perhaps a little harmaline would balance out the stimulation...SWIM has noticed that THH has some stimulating effects like harmine except a bit clearer..

hes about to do some self hypnosis with what is left of the effects(which is quite a bit)

hes been doing these self hypnosis techniques to work on having out of body experiences while he sleeps..the techniques revolve around getting you to visualize yourself moving and doing things...he has had quite a few lucid dreams since trying spice out..and has been having them more frequently..he just wants to learn to control it better..its amazing how quickly the dream can suck you right back into itself and make you forget..
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Jorkest, was there any nausea at all during this experience?

When SWIM eats small amounts of chocolate during a pharmahuasca experience with harmine it’s the one thing that gives him nausea. He can drink coffee, eat pizza, etc., and he’s fine, but he can’t stomach chocolate candy.
 
hmmm no nausea..he wasnt super hungry at all..but he did eat a massive plate of spicy spaghetti with boar sausage onions garlic and parmesan...and drank a few beers later on in the afternoon...he didnt want to have any beer 3 hours after he took the combo..but thats about it
 
I think the digression off the topic has at least been constructive. 69Ron made some statements that could have misled people to believe that the methylated xanthines increase the overall bloodflow. Bufoman correctly pointed out that the overall bloodflow is actually decreased.

Now, bufoman, 69Ron has adressed your point, explaining that it's true the total bloodflow is decreased, but the useful bloodflow is actually increased (and cited a source to back this up). Now, rather than refuting his point logically or scientifically, you're resorting to ad hominem attacks and claiming that he "doesn't believe in science" (which we all know to be far from the truth). If you don't want to either refute or acknowledge his point, that's fine... but the petty finger-pointing is immature and unproductive. His explanation makes perfect sense and does not contradict the studies you posted. If you still feel it's incorrect, I think it'd be much more productive for you to explain why (though this would probably be best adressed in a seperate thread).


Back on topic:

I took a very low dose or 2 g rue and 1 g cacao today, and felt a mild but noticeable stimulation, rather pleasant and productive. Tomorrow I intend to experiment with a slightly higher dosage of cacao to observe how the effects change with dosage.
 
Probably a good 10-12 hours. The stimulant effect was similar to caffeine, in that it made me both alert and paradoxically relaxed and prone to yawning/sleepiness (caffeine always makes me sleepy in lower doses). I'm curious whether a larger amount of cacao will overcome this barrier and be stimulating without making me tired.

It's hard to explain how something can be stimulating while causing sleepiness, but that's how caffeine is for me, and that's how this was for me... maybe mild ADD (or just plain atypical brain chemistry) has something to do with it?
 
Just out of curiosity why are all of 69ron's posts and links removed? This will be my last post regarding the topic however I cited over 10 journal articles, many from leading journals. 69ron cited a nutritionalist and a website where someone wrote in a question. I explained to him that vasodilation of the arteries leading to the brain actually decrease cerebral blood flow because of the decrease in pressure. He is right regarding other organ systems but he doesn't seem to understand that the brain is different because of its unique position relative to gravity and its importance in regulation of all other systems. I showed him countless studies, he says he disagrees with them but obviously has not read them. All I said was that overall blood flow to the brain is decreased, the capillaries of the brain undergo vasoconstriction this decreases flow. As to my ad hominem attacks this was only after I showed him countless articles which he obviously didn't look at. I refuted his argument several times but he ignored them and now he deleted his posts, which I would have too, seeing as his sources were a joke. I am not trying to be mean but I think if you are going to say something that is obviously wrong then when someone corrects you tell them they are wrong what do you expect? I just took a test on the cardiovasculature system in pathophysiology otherwise I probably wouldn't have said anything.

I understand science may believe things that are not true however please just type caffeine cerebral bloodflow into Google or anywhere and see how many articles from leading journals support what I said. 69ron did not site a single article, not one, just chat websites and a nutrisionalist trying to sell caffeine products. You can find anything online. Additionally his argument about it increasing GOOD blood flow is blatantly wrong caffeine reduces MRI effectiveness because it reduces all blood flow to the brain I cited this article as well. The only time blood flow is increased with this drug is when you are withdrawing from caffeine. What was wrong with the scientific method of the articles I cited?

Thank you all. I guess I now look as though I was arguing with myself.
 
bufoman said:
Thank you all. I guess I now look as though I was arguing with myself.
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Yes, it does look quite strange :lol:

Lets test it out more, both orally, and smoking. Perhaps it improves absorption instead of working on the brain. Better establish that first. Then someone should try theobromine. It is easy to find on the net in pure form. Just search for theobromine 98% on google. Should give some cheap results.
 
This is all quite facinating.

I ordered 15 grams of pure theobromine today. I look forward to seeing if that produces similar effects to cacao beans + MAOI's.

It sounds like this is a great way to potentiate spice and aya. Getting good leaf for aya is expensive, so I would be really happy to have something as harmless as chocolate/theobromine to potentiate with.

Even as just a nice, non-jittery stimulant (coffee just makes me too jittery after more than 2 cups) I think that it will be very useful.

It's coming from across the pond so it may take a week or two (xmas and all) but I'll report back as soon as I've tried it.

I guess I should probably pick up some cacao beans...although I've heard that a few tablespoons of hershey's syrup will do the trick as well.
 
yes...i wonder if you would need to take an maoi to make it do the same thing when you smoke it..
 
^I don't know but will be trying different routes of administration

Nasal
Oral
Sublingual
Rectal
Vaporized

With and without a THH and other harmala alkaloids.

I suspect that nasal, sublingual, inhaled, and rectal will probably give some effects without an MAOI.

We shall see!

BTW the stuff was really cheap $10 for 15 grams of the stuff.

Another thing I wonder is if it will satify female cravings for chocolate before and during menstration. I don't think the craving is all about the taste of chocolate, but rather what it has in it. This I will be testing out on my wife, who really, really likes her chocolate.
 
acolon_5 said:
I suspect that nasal, sublingual, inhaled, and rectal will probably give some effects without an MAOI.
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Rectal dmt does work without a maoi. If I remember correctly, 3 times the oral dose was active, although not very powerful. Rectal dmt with a maoi taken orally is about 3 times as potent compared to taking dmt orally.
 
Yes I said earlier that theobromine/caffeine most likely works via increasing absorption of THH and other compounds. This is one of the reasons caffeine is present in many drug mixtures. Also these compounds block cAMP degradation in the brain, thus any effect of these drugs that is mediated by cAMP will be enhanced in intensity and duration. This may be involved in the potentiation effects as well. Also the presence of phenethylamine in chocolate likely plays an important role in the psychoactive effects especially when administered with an MAOI (I gave references for this earlier as well. PEA is active orally as alone and with an MAOI)
 
Dagger said:
acolon_5 said:
I suspect that nasal, sublingual, inhaled, and rectal will probably give some effects without an MAOI.
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Rectal dmt does work without a maoi. If I remember correctly, 3 times the oral dose was active, although not very powerful. Rectal dmt with a maoi taken orally is about 3 times as potent compared to taking dmt orally.
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I'm sorry I should have been more clear. I was speaking of taking pure theobromine. The questions I am trying to answer are

1) Is theobromine active without an MAOI.
2) Which routes of administration will give effects
3) Which routes of administration, if any, are compareable to theobromine + MAOI.

This is all without DMT...of course I do plan on testing theobromine + vaporized DMT once I get the answers to the above questions answered.

Yes I said earlier that theobromine/caffeine most likely works via increasing absorption of THH and other compounds. This is one of the reasons caffeine is present in many drug mixtures. Also these compounds block cAMP degradation in the brain, thus any effect of these drugs that is mediated by cAMP will be enhanced in intensity and duration. This may be involved in the potentiation effects as well. Also the presence of phenethylamine in chocolate likely plays an important role in the psychoactive effects especially when administered with an MAOI (I gave references for this earlier as well. PEA is active orally as alone and with an MAOI)
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Another question I'd like an answer to is theobromine not at all, partially, mostly, or completely responsible for the effects of cacao. A test between pure theobromine+MAOI and cacao+MAOI should help answer that question.
 
bufoman said:
The only way to know for sure is to test it out.
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Bioassays are so much fun!
errr, I mean educational and informative...yeah!

I plan on doing as many tests as I can with this stuff. After reading all the reports I could find on the effects of cacao, it sounds quite interesting and worth investigating.
 
bufoman said:
Yes I said earlier that theobromine/caffeine most likely works via increasing absorption of THH and other compounds.
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I'd take issue with this. Harmine/harmaline aren't particularly pleasant or stimulating when taken alone. While that explanation might hold up if these effects only occured with cacao+THH, the fact that it works very similarly with cacao + P harmala argues against the hypothesis. Plus, better absorbtion shouldn't lead the the duration of effect being lengthened several-fold... the effects of cacao+harmine/harmaline last 2-4 times as long as harmaline alone.

And we shouldn't forget, the effect of caffeine+harmalas is very different than the effect of cacao+harmalas. Caffeine is just slightly more potent with harmala alkaloids in the mix. But cacao isn't just more potent, it's a whole different ballgame.


Also the presence of phenethylamine in chocolate likely plays an important role in the psychoactive effects especially when administered with an MAOI (I gave references for this earlier as well. PEA is active orally as alone and with an MAOI)
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That argument sounds better, though still is probably only a part of the story. PEA+MAOI was shown to be a mood-lifter, not a surprisingly effective stimulant.

I look forward to the reports of THH/harmine/harmaline combined with pure theobromine to give this issue some more context. There are plenty of phytochems in T cacao that could be playing a role in this pleasant phenomena.
 
bufoman said:
Definitely SWIM just placed an order. SWIM's also gonna proceed slowly with some PEA and MAOIs and possibly some oleaminde and linoleamide.
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I've yet to hear of PEA being active by any route, or in combination.

Please let us know if you do find it active!

"Oleamide was found by researchers to be leaking out of polypropylene plastics used in laboratory experiments, affecting experimental results.[7] Since polypropylene is used in a wide number of food containers such as those for yogurt, the problem is being studied.[8]"

Seems like we have all been ingesting a touch of oleamide.
 
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