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Trying to improve Acacia information
- Thread starter nen888
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Verruckter
Rising Star
Nen, ive read through most of the thread since your last discussion of Leucaena‑leucocephala somewhere around post 149. I was wondering if you were able to find anything about this particular specimen, as far as any alkaloids of interest? I know we were talking on my other thread, but the topic direction ended up going towards the mesquite direction due to the extraction i had issues with.
I do have a plethora of Leucaena‑leucocephala on my property as well and wanted to try to gain some knowledge about it before i potentially wasted my time.
TIA!
I do have a plethora of Leucaena‑leucocephala on my property as well and wanted to try to gain some knowledge about it before i potentially wasted my time.
TIA!
..Leucaena leucocephala is medicinally interesting, but probably not one for home enthusiasts..as i said back in post 149 it contains the alkaloid Mimosine [Mimosine - Wikipedia] which is still of unclear activity and toxicity..Mimosine was first found in Mimosa pudica ('sensitive plant') which is reported by Voogelbreinder 2009 to have psychoactive effects..
the seeds contain leucenol, a probable toxin..Chung-Yi Chen & Yau-Der Wang [2010] found four steroids, 5α,8α-epidioxy-(24ξ)-ergosta-6,22-dien-3β-ol (1), β-sitosterol (2), β-sitostenone (3), and stigmastenone (4), along with 10 unknown compounds were isolated from the whole plants..i should also have mentioned in post 149 that it also occurs in India and a few other parts of asia..
..interestingly the whole alkaloidal extracts of L. leucocephala
..the findings of harmala alkaloids in a few mesquites, as well their ethnomedical history, make them interesting for entheogen research, however a few contain very biologically unknown alkaloids..
the seeds contain leucenol, a probable toxin..Chung-Yi Chen & Yau-Der Wang [2010] found four steroids, 5α,8α-epidioxy-(24ξ)-ergosta-6,22-dien-3β-ol (1), β-sitosterol (2), β-sitostenone (3), and stigmastenone (4), along with 10 unknown compounds were isolated from the whole plants..i should also have mentioned in post 149 that it also occurs in India and a few other parts of asia..
..interestingly the whole alkaloidal extracts of L. leucocephala
..the findings of harmala alkaloids in a few mesquites, as well their ethnomedical history, make them interesting for entheogen research, however a few contain very biologically unknown alkaloids..
..endlessness' tests showing almost pure dmt with a little 2MeTHBC in A. obtusifolia x maidenii (cultivar) indicate that this is a highly desirable hybrid to grow..it is already being grown in some places as obtusifolia..the yellow flowers and often acuminate (pointed) leaves are the indicators..
and blessed be the sacred twig of obtusifolia, being almost entirely dmt while the trunk bark and leaves have nmt (& maybe something else) , at least in this individual tree..
it should be noted, though, that any particular published test of contents of a plant is usually based on what one (or a few) plants were doing at a particular time, and are not an absolute indicator of what the species contains..larger numbers of repeated findings of the same content would give high statistical likely hood of a plant containing a substance(s) ..statistically, so far, A. obtusifolia x maidenii leans towards mainly dmt, whereas obtusifolia has about half the time had nmt as the major alkaloid..with Acacia acuminata, there are more underground tests reporting mainly dmt, but the interesting finding by endlessness of tetrahydroharman as the major alkaloid (along with dmt & tryptamine) opens up a whole world of interesting possibilities..
thank you to the trees..
.
and blessed be the sacred twig of obtusifolia, being almost entirely dmt while the trunk bark and leaves have nmt (& maybe something else) , at least in this individual tree..
it should be noted, though, that any particular published test of contents of a plant is usually based on what one (or a few) plants were doing at a particular time, and are not an absolute indicator of what the species contains..larger numbers of repeated findings of the same content would give high statistical likely hood of a plant containing a substance(s) ..statistically, so far, A. obtusifolia x maidenii leans towards mainly dmt, whereas obtusifolia has about half the time had nmt as the major alkaloid..with Acacia acuminata, there are more underground tests reporting mainly dmt, but the interesting finding by endlessness of tetrahydroharman as the major alkaloid (along with dmt & tryptamine) opens up a whole world of interesting possibilities..
thank you to the trees..
.
cheif hobo stank
Rising Star
Very intersting stuff. what is the origin of the obtusifolia x maidenii, is it an intentional cross or assumed hybrid? Would love to see some pics of the inflorescence and phyllodes. Have noticed some obtusifolia around the north coast area to have very acute phyllodes.
..my A. obtusifolia x maidenii was natural from seed collected in southern nsw, and also grown a second generation..the original location had both species growing..the photo of it i posted (p.12) is grown in Europe, i don't know where the seed is from..straight obtusifolia in n.e.nsw is it's own (not so common) sub-variety..the phyllodes can be acute, but the flowers are usually cream..it has been tested once by Mulga and found to be mainly DMT, but a lower percentage (around 0.2% in bark) ..what is probably going on is a multi-species 'complex' involving 3-6 of these closely related acacias exchanging material and leading to a lot of individual variation..a very intense 'complex' i've been researching a few years is the Acacia concurrens complex, in which up to a dozen very closely related species interbreed and confuse botanists..A. aneura ('mulga') is an even bigger and hazier 'complex'..
Verruckter
Rising Star
hmmm... i guess i shouldn't have tried identifying the plant myself then, possible mis-identification... again! LOL There are just so many different species that look almost identical!! without years of experience and a VERY trained eye, its nearly impossible to determine what is what. Even when i search google with specific plant names, it appears that most of the time they just pull up the same pics of the same plants, whether or not it is in fact the right plant! This is just another reason im going to be start a botany class, i eventually want to get into entheobotany, but I've got to learn to crawl before i can walk!nen888 said:
..i meant it's introduced to asia..is native central america and naturalized in hawaii..i think your ID was good!
yeah, botanical terms are very confusing..but knowing one plant from another by eye just takes motivation and practice..good luck with the botany studies..
yeah, botanical terms are very confusing..but knowing one plant from another by eye just takes motivation and practice..good luck with the botany studies..
..for our Hawaiian Nexians, check this link..Plants of Hawaii: acacia
it lists the following Acacia species as recorded in hawaii: (the * = native, most are australian migrants)
Acacia aneura - Mulga acacia
Acacia aulacocarpa - Hickory wattle, brown salwood
Acacia auriculiformis - Earpod wattle
Acacia confusa - Formosa koa
Acacia farnesiana - Klu
Acacia koa - Koa *
Acacia koaia - Koaia, dwarf koa *
Acacia mangium - Mangium wattle
Acacia mearnsii - Black wattle
Acacia melanoxylon - Australian blackwood
Acacia podalyriifolia - Queensland silver wattle
Acacia retinodes - Water wattle
Acacia sp. - Unknown acacia
..there are some very good tryptamine candidates there..
below are (all in Maui) A. retinodes, A. mearnsii, A. confusa, A. koaia leaf (with grazing Koa bugs Coleotichus blackburniae) & A. koaia tree...
it lists the following Acacia species as recorded in hawaii: (the * = native, most are australian migrants)
Acacia aneura - Mulga acacia
Acacia aulacocarpa - Hickory wattle, brown salwood
Acacia auriculiformis - Earpod wattle
Acacia confusa - Formosa koa
Acacia farnesiana - Klu
Acacia koa - Koa *
Acacia koaia - Koaia, dwarf koa *
Acacia mangium - Mangium wattle
Acacia mearnsii - Black wattle
Acacia melanoxylon - Australian blackwood
Acacia podalyriifolia - Queensland silver wattle
Acacia retinodes - Water wattle
Acacia sp. - Unknown acacia
..there are some very good tryptamine candidates there..
below are (all in Maui) A. retinodes, A. mearnsii, A. confusa, A. koaia leaf (with grazing Koa bugs Coleotichus blackburniae) & A. koaia tree...
Attachments
..USAcacias really need more chemical investigation (see p.9 for current very limited knowledge, some phenethylamines and a little dmt)
one of the more widely distributed is Acacia greggii ('catclaw acacia'), with several varieties and natural hybrids with A. berlandieri..
it is found in southern California, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, Arizona and Texas..
one of the more widely distributed is Acacia greggii ('catclaw acacia'), with several varieties and natural hybrids with A. berlandieri..
it is found in southern California, Nevada, Colorado, Utah, Arizona and Texas..
Attachments
Verruckter
Rising Star
Nen,
Your vast knowledge and information blow my mind!! this thread has become the focus of 50% of my day! Im continuously reading, researching, and nature walking!
I clearly have all the keys i should need, so now its time to apply this info first hand! hopefully i may be able to contribute to this thread in more than an inquisitive way!!! :d
Since you have been of great assistance to me, as well as others, I will try to keep you posted on my findings, and hopefully bring some new information from my travels, and hopeful discoveries!
Your vast knowledge and information blow my mind!! this thread has become the focus of 50% of my day! Im continuously reading, researching, and nature walking!
I clearly have all the keys i should need, so now its time to apply this info first hand! hopefully i may be able to contribute to this thread in more than an inquisitive way!!! :d
Since you have been of great assistance to me, as well as others, I will try to keep you posted on my findings, and hopefully bring some new information from my travels, and hopeful discoveries!
Very Interesting thread, I'd like to thank everyone that has contributed.
Something that I'm curious about that hasn't really came up in discussion is wood alkaloids content. The general consensus of the community is that bark should be ideally obtained from dead or fallen branches. If none are apparent and alive plants must be tampered with then removing bark from branches is less damaging than from the trunk.
I believe nen888 said a few pages back that there is no actives in the wood, was this speculation or does anybody know of literature or experiments people have performed themselves directly on wood.
If peoples put entire branches and twigs through mulchers, some wood is included in the extraction. This could potentially add inaccuracies to yields. If the wood has no alkaloids and is treated as "bark" in initial weights then the actual bark yield would be considerably higher. When people post yields, this information should be included.
Traces of 5MeO-DMT has been found in maidenii wood (October 1995). Could nn also exist and there's just a lack of research? My botanical knowledge suggests that alkaloids would be in greatest concentration in the bark but it may also be significant in outer layers of wood. It could even be that the bark is a alkaloid source, whereas the wood a sink.
If it turns out that wood has significant concentrations of alkaloids, we shouldn't waste it. Extract everything we can out of it so we don't have to damage as many plants.
Something that I'm curious about that hasn't really came up in discussion is wood alkaloids content. The general consensus of the community is that bark should be ideally obtained from dead or fallen branches. If none are apparent and alive plants must be tampered with then removing bark from branches is less damaging than from the trunk.
I believe nen888 said a few pages back that there is no actives in the wood, was this speculation or does anybody know of literature or experiments people have performed themselves directly on wood.
If peoples put entire branches and twigs through mulchers, some wood is included in the extraction. This could potentially add inaccuracies to yields. If the wood has no alkaloids and is treated as "bark" in initial weights then the actual bark yield would be considerably higher. When people post yields, this information should be included.
Traces of 5MeO-DMT has been found in maidenii wood (October 1995). Could nn also exist and there's just a lack of research? My botanical knowledge suggests that alkaloids would be in greatest concentration in the bark but it may also be significant in outer layers of wood. It could even be that the bark is a alkaloid source, whereas the wood a sink.
If it turns out that wood has significant concentrations of alkaloids, we shouldn't waste it. Extract everything we can out of it so we don't have to damage as many plants.
Oh and does anybody have any ideas on the ID of these phyllodes could be?
They were collected from east Gippslands about a week ago. No visible flowers or fruits. Sorry I don't have the branches attached, just the phyllodes.
Help is greatly appreciated.
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They were collected from east Gippslands about a week ago. No visible flowers or fruits. Sorry I don't have the branches attached, just the phyllodes.
Help is greatly appreciated.
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..glad you inspired Verruckter, thanks for keeping us up to date with your discoveries..
cheeser wrote:
..it should be noted that maidenii at times can contain mainly DMT in the outer bark..even the lower yielding strains have 0.1-0.2% DMT/NMT in the branch bark with thorough extraction..some strains have up to 0.7% alkaloid (mainly DMT) in the phyllodes..
as for the photo, it's hard without flower or pod..could be an obtusifolia X maidenii, obtusifolia var. or A. dallichana..
Acacia maidenii, higher yielding forms have thicker, duller phylloodes like top pic and see in particular p25#487, lower yielding have broader, darker, shinier phyllodes (but maybe the alkaloids have gone to the wood?) ..twisted/coiled narrow pods are the defining characteristic of A. maidenii..
cheeser wrote:
..this an interesting and good point, thanks cheeser..the idea is based more on 'folklore', and other plants, than actual experiment that alkaloids are not in the wood..certainly flavonoids are known from the heartwood of a number of acacias including maidenii..BTW, what is your source of the 5meo in maidenii info? ..very interesting..do you know in what amounts..?
..it should be noted that maidenii at times can contain mainly DMT in the outer bark..even the lower yielding strains have 0.1-0.2% DMT/NMT in the branch bark with thorough extraction..some strains have up to 0.7% alkaloid (mainly DMT) in the phyllodes..
as for the photo, it's hard without flower or pod..could be an obtusifolia X maidenii, obtusifolia var. or A. dallichana..
Acacia maidenii, higher yielding forms have thicker, duller phylloodes like top pic and see in particular p25#487, lower yielding have broader, darker, shinier phyllodes (but maybe the alkaloids have gone to the wood?) ..twisted/coiled narrow pods are the defining characteristic of A. maidenii..
Attachments
I read it here.. 5-MeO-DMT - DMT-Nexus Wiki
It says that 5MeO-DMT was found only in the wood, not the bark or phyllodes. As far as the source in concerned, its cited as October 1995. The page doesn't provide the full citation so I'm unsure as to what else it has to says about it.
I also just came across another source "Tentative identification of 5-MeO-DMT in wood and twigs, NMT in root" - "Trout, K. & Friends. 2007. Some Simple Tryptamines. Second edition. Mydriatic Productions, USA." From the Wikipedia page List of Acacia species known to contain psychoactive alkaloids - Wikipedia.
However this may just be poorly referenced and the information in this book had primary reference from October 1995.
It says that 5MeO-DMT was found only in the wood, not the bark or phyllodes. As far as the source in concerned, its cited as October 1995. The page doesn't provide the full citation so I'm unsure as to what else it has to says about it.
I also just came across another source "Tentative identification of 5-MeO-DMT in wood and twigs, NMT in root" - "Trout, K. & Friends. 2007. Some Simple Tryptamines. Second edition. Mydriatic Productions, USA." From the Wikipedia page List of Acacia species known to contain psychoactive alkaloids - Wikipedia.
However this may just be poorly referenced and the information in this book had primary reference from October 1995.
The citation is quoted in the beginning of the acacia section in our wiki, it's TLC tentative identifications from Johnny Appleseed's tests, mentioned in Trout's Notes second edition, also as written in the wikipedia you linked.
Cheeser, the pic you linked to of leaves/phyllodes picked in east Gippsland look like they might be from Acacia longifolia or even obtusifolia (perhaps you stumbled across the Vic population of that one?).
By the way, when I opened that link several other advertisement windows popped up:!:
By the way, when I opened that link several other advertisement windows popped up:!:
Here are a couple papers in regards to Leucaena sp. and mimosine, I have a couple more on just mimosine, these 2 seem more relevant to this thread.
..thanks Dozuki, cheeser, wira and endlessness..
..wira, is not mimosine the main alkaloid in M. pudica, and isn't the plant described as having psychoactive effects (from an extract) ?
i seem to recall Ott mentioning it was smoked as a cannabis substitute by the Sandinista..? sorry, away from refs a few days...
..wira, is not mimosine the main alkaloid in M. pudica, and isn't the plant described as having psychoactive effects (from an extract) ?
i seem to recall Ott mentioning it was smoked as a cannabis substitute by the Sandinista..? sorry, away from refs a few days...