Trying to improve Acacia information

[nen888]

Random thought: would reagents (Mecke/Marquis/Mandelin/Ehrlich etc) work on dried/grounded plant/phyllode material?

Could be an easy way to test new species, before fully fledged experiment.

Endless covered some info on reagent reactions to substances here and here.

..reagents will work with a small amount of ground fresh or dry plant material in alcohol..
endlessness has been helping get some test kit info together and may shed some more light on this soon..

a simple reagent test will simply indicate whether there are tryptamines present (based on colour change) but will not indicate exactly what tryptamine it is..

the simplest method of determining roughly what tryptamine (to an extent), and roughly how many alkaloids is TLC (Thin Layer Chromatography) ..the simplest form of this i mentioned a workshop on in this post on p11..
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ps. i'm beginning to think solvent discussion would be better in the Acacia Extraction Workshop...
and try and focus on bioassays/experiences, successful extractions, new species, cultural info etc in this massive thread..thanks , though, acacian for the handy hints..

 

[nen888]

..due to an influx of new members i want to reiterate a point:

Acacias are not an instant access point for DMT...

they require time to understand..

only a few known so far contain DMT as the principle alkaloid..many contain multiple alkaloids..and a few contain potentially dangerous alkaloids, or completely unknown alkaloids..

this thread is ultimately about a wider understanding (and appreciation) of this genus..
not specifically DMT, although obviously it is discussed a fair bit..

those who have patience will find many of the answers they require in this thread..

those who experiment recklessly and without taking time to know plants could harm themselves (or others)

this thread is suited to the kind and intelligent..
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ps..wild harvesting of acacias in national parks and reserves is completely unethical and not supported here..
(very small amounts for genuine chemical testing is ok, but any use beyond this is not sustainable, and illegal)

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[nen888]

..back to the esoteric and traditional,




the ancient egyptian goddess Amentet was a goddess of the dead, and gate-keeper to the underworld, associated with an Acacia tree on the edge of the desert..

her name means 'One who is Hidden'..

" 'Amentet' is where the sun sets and the dead come into contact with the deities; a "hidden" place...

She is thought to have lived "hidden" in an acacia tree at the edge of the desert overlooking the "World Gates" to the underworld."
[Beyond The Nile]

"Amenet is a funerary Name in the fact that She is said to own the Acacia tree that is between the worlds. "

[http://www.wepwawet.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amenet]

 

[Major Tom]

Hi all , really enjoying this thread [ lurking still , with little of relevance to contribute ]...

But this post is to advise of the astonishing growth rate and ease of growing A . Floribunda .

I sowed A . Maidenii , A . Acuminatas [ 2 types ] , and A . Floribunda at the same time .

The Acuminatas have been slow from the beginning , and are disappointing - possibly they are not happy in a subtropical environment .

The Maideniis are doing well .

The Floribundas have really taken off indeed , and are about twice the size now of the maidens , which are in turn about twice the size of the Acuminatas ...

None are being watered , although rainfall has been good during the past 15 months or so since all were transplanted out . All survived an entire dry season without irrigation - but the area has had rain about once each dry season month .

The Floribundas are proving to be especially hardy and vigorous with minimal care . Most are 8 - 10 feet + high , in about 15 months , and now established trees [ good rainfall , and fed with Osmocote slow-release Oz native fertilizer every 3-4 months - because I am unable to transport heavy nutrients to the garden . ]

The soil is fairly poor - sandy / gravel type . I added a little dolomite and trace element mix before transplanting out . No other cultivation , except for an occasional Osmocote native dressing .

To date I have not done a Floribunda extraction , however , should the species reliably have alkaloid contents similar to those cited in reports , it may be a winner ....

 

[--Shadow]

Thanks for that update Major Tom. I'm going to be growing acimanata and oxycedrus shortly, so I might look at exchanging some seeds for floribunda just to compare under a controlled environment setup. I've decided I'm also going to grow some of the rarer species such as a.c to help in the conservation. I'll update with my findings in roughly 6 months

I'll +1 to nen's reiteration for all new members...

Any new members who have come here for the purpose of just learning how to extract DMT from acacias - please spend a few days to at least read the enitirety of this particular thread. I really believe you will come out the other side feeling rewarded that you did
Plus, you'll likely save yourself more time than it takes to read it all, with regards to identifying positive tryptamine acacias, producing more efficient extractions etc

 

[DreaMTripper]

^Agreed, couldnt say it any better the plant teachings begin when you start to read and learn about this incredible genus of plant.

Major Tom thats mighty impressive! 8-10ft tall already! Wow!

 

[nen888]

^^..yes thank you --Shadow for those wise words..well said..

and hooray for Major Tom! glad you're still about. ..a veteran of the 2012 thread era..quite a year..

thank you for letting us know how your trees are going..
yes A. floribunda is the fastest (as mentioned in the Top 8 Acacias to Grow thread)
would be good to hear more reports on floribunda..Spice Sailor reported success in nsw with it..
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stay well acacians..
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[Seldom]

for those interested new experiments show not all acacia leiocalyx subsp. leiocalyx species are active,

`750g of branch bark boiled in mild acid solution 45 mins x 3, filtered, reduced, based with Ca(OH)2 to bring PH to 12, 3 shallow xylene pulls, combined and salted with vinegar, to yield narthin. this is a tried method which has had a significant amount success with other high-yielding species.

bark was taken from a single branch of an old roadside tree, next to a paddock of wisely contemptuous looking cows, after no rain, and very hot weather. ID was confirmed with geographical distribution info, and using Lucid Player Key from University of Queensland, a part of the Wattle - Acacias of Australia CD package. thoughts are reports of alkaloids being from this species may have come from a different tree in the 'concurrens complex', or it may be geographically (as with most acacias) or seasonably variable. the more you know.


p.s - shine on, you crazy diamonds :d

 

[Major Tom]

I was wondering ...

for the purposes of this thread are we to consider mimosas to be acacias ?
[ if not , please delete this post ]

If so , M. Hostilis [ in a subtropical location ] is the fastest growing of my trees , including A . Floribunda . Simply astonishing ...

 

[--Shadow]

Hi Seldom - that's really intriguing to me, and it's something that I'd love to get to the bottom of eventually (thou I'll need help from some real scientists in these areas). I kicked off another thread on the subject, which was more specifically questioning the reason for low alkaloid content after rain, but it started to encompass more generally what causes high and low alkaloid contents in the acacias

Why excess rain drops alkaloid content, and what increases it - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

So, I understand that there was no rain for a few days. The three questions I'm thinking are:
1) was it flowering or not?
2) was the bark taken in the morning or the night?
3) (which may be harder to find out) how much ryzobium bacteria on the roots?

It could also be soil quality I imagine, but not sure what to look for exactly, other than maybe testing nitrogen or ph levels?

 

[nen888]

^..thank you for the read hyperlazer, and welcome..
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--Shadow..great research project for the next few years.. ..i can confirm that rhyzobium levels appear to affect alkaloid levels (increased N)
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Major Tom wrote:

for the purposes of this thread are we to consider mimosas to be acacias ?
[ if not , please delete this post ]

If so , M. Hostilis [ in a subtropical location ] is the fastest growing of my trees , including A . Floribunda . Simply astonishing ...

..well, Mimosas are imo more 'cousins' of acacias, but we have looked at a few in the thread..they are certainly very close relatives...i think this information on growth rates is very important and relevant..thanks again..
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& thank you Seldom for the A. leiocalyx report...certainly trees within the 'Concurrens complex' can be hard for even experts to tell apart..and both leiocalyx and concurrens are widely growing in similar areas, including roadside planting in queensland, aus..your method seems sound..i recall you posted a positive report on A. concurrens a while back...
anyhow, good to hear from you as always..
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[nen888]

..looking at an Africa/India connection now..


..Kikar, or Kikkraan, is a name given in India and Pakistan to Acacia nilotica (more commonly known as Babul, also found in africa), Acacia karoo (introduced from Africa) and also Prosopis juliflora (see 'Mesquite' in index) ..

Babul is the more widely used name for A. nilotica..

In India the babul tree is associated with the god Shiva who is often depicted as Lord of the Babul Tree; it is also associated with Krishna. Sikhs see it as a symbol of the spiritual seeker who has to endure the barbs and arrows (symbolized by the thorns of the tree) of worldly unbelievers to achieve true spiritual salvation.

All parts of the kikar or babul tree are used in medicine with the bark, which has astringent qualities mainly used for coughs and to cure diarrhoea and dysentery. The root and bark are used in decoctions to give a man courage (in much the same way as the herb borage was used by the Romans in Europe) and it is believed to be an aphrodisiac. The root is said to cure impotence. The fresh pods are used to treat erectile dysfunctions such as premature ejaculation.
The bark or gum from the tree is used to treat cancers, problems with the liver and spleen and as an appetite suppressant to cure obesity. On a more mundane level the gum is also used as a gargle to cure sore throats.
The leaves and bark are used to staunch the flow of blood from a wound and a decoction of the pods dries up mucus in the bronchial tubes so is good to use if you have a cold.

[https://suite101.com/a/the-kikar-or-babul-tree-is-used-for-many-purposes-a292485]


..now, we know (see index) there are at least 9 sub-species of A. nilotica, and there have been positive findings of DMT in the species in general (as well as negative) ..of course, much of the medicinal activity is likely due to other compounds within the tree as well..
..there are also unverified reports of A. karoo containing DMT..
the interesting alkaloids of Prosopis have also been looked at in the thread


..on ethnobotanical use in Africa, an interesting 2006 paper [A preliminary inventory of plants used for psychoactive purposes in southern African healing traditions J.F. SOBIECKI] (i attached in this thread) tells us:

Acacia nilotica (L.) Willd. ex Del. subsp. kraussiana (Benth.) Brenan Bark and root decoctions are drunk by Masai youths to acquire strength and courage (Williamson, 1974), and are reported to have intoxicating effects (Watt & Breyer-Brandwijk, 1962). Bark decoctions are also used as a nerve stimulant by the Masai (Watt & Breyer-Brandwijk, 1962). N,N dimethyl-tryptamine, and tetrahydroharmane have been found in the leaves (Hutchings et al., 1996).

Acacia karroo Hayne [mubayamhondoro, muunga (Sh)] Root infusions are taken for convulsions and dizziness in Zimbabwe (Gelfand et al., 1985).

other african acacias mentioned are: "Acacia amythethophylla Steud. ex A. Rich. [chitasunga (Sh)] Root infusions are taken for convulsions in Zimbabwe (Gelfand et al., 1985) "; and "Acacia nigrescens Oliv. [munanga (Sh)] The root is applied as an ointment to the body for convulsions in Zimbabwe (Gelfand et al., 1985)."

..if people are testing A. nilotica, establishing which subspecies it is would be a good move..
also, A. nilotica subsp. adstringens is very hard to tell apart from A. karoo without examining pods..


of course, these Acacias have now been called Vachellias by botanists with nothing better to do...it should be noted there were objections to this renaming of African and American species by a few senior international botanists..

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..here is an Indian childrens' song about the lovely Kikkraan (Acacia) tree in Punjabi:
[YOUTUBE]

and below are the three Kikars
, a very old Babul (A. nilotica) in India; A. karoo (also in India) and Prosopis juliflora..

 

[nen888]

..the Maasai name for the ceremonial Acacia nilotica is ARUSHA

other E. African traditional names include: olkionite, olkiloriti, olgiloriti, mgelegele, mgungankundumuela, & muela...
(more on the Masai p72 & 26)

below, Maasai womens' ceremony with Arusha..

 

[nen888]

(..& Acacia nilotica one more time..)


..in the ancient temple of Babulnuth ( बाबुलनाथ) in Mumbai, India,
the principle deity is Shiva in the form of the Babul tree..the Lord of the Babul Tree..

image below from deep in the temple..

Jai Babul !
ॐ

 

[dmusicaltrancistor]

welcome dmusicaltrancistor..65 pages deep in the odyssey! glad you're into it ..

..i believe there's an Acacia retinodes growing at the Royal Botanical Gardens, Burlington, Ontario (Canada)
in a greenhouse..in Canada indoor or greenhouse growing would suit acacias..let us know how you go..

for cultivation, (and interesting species)
you may find the following thread links useful or relevant:

Basics for Successful Indoor Growing (by Vodsel)

Top 8 acacias to grow worldwide

Acacia photo gallery (by acacian & others)

My Acacias (JOY) - [Ethnobotanical Garden] (by changalvia)

also, here's a good thread for Africans, and all of us

African Acacia cultivation thread (by xantho)

stay well, acacians all..
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Wow A.Retinodes in the garden in Burlington not bad thats not to far of a drive either thanks soo much and im also looking into getting some tortilis seeds as well from what ive read they have quite the interesting history

 

[nen888]

..a renaming worth noting is that the US/Mexican Acacia angustissima (White Ball Acacia) has now been renamed
Acaciella angustissima ...why i don't know..
it has 3 varieties, var. hirta, var. texensis, and var. suffrutescens
..there was a thread discussing it's tryptamine content and use in the Aztec sacred drink Pulque..

below, the white ball flowers, and an old Aztec codec showing an elderly woman drinking 'Pulque' (which may be very different to what's called 'pulque' today in mexico)

 

[nen888]

..i just want to preface this post by thanking acacian for his great name choice a while back..inspiring..and looking forward to hearing more from him..


i'd like to start a discussion of Acacian Philosophy

be this, i mean the overall interest that people develop in acacias generally, leading to a deep appreciation of and affection for these trees..
and in a wide range of world cultures they are treated with reverence..

..Acacia is a genus one could spend a lifetime studying..
as i said earlier in the thread, the Acacia is like a Total Tree..you can build from it, treat various illnesses, eat the seeds, fix the soil, or seek visions..

the magazine of the Swinburne University of Technology (Issue 3, 2012) in an article on rejuvenating saline land with salt tolerant acacias wrote:

“The acacia could be described as a wonder plant – yielding the following by-products: High-value timber for furniture, charcoal for energy production or steelmaking, fodder for livestock, biodiesel, edible and nutritional seeds, pharmaceuticals.”

many who began their interest in them in search of a fabled molecule start to widen their interest in the plant..
(tryptamines are just one category of a wide range of compounds found in the genus, incl. amino acids, phenethylamines, flavonoids, triterpenes, and spermadines.. )
and of course many people have devoted their interests to acacias without any need to explore alkaloids..

they have a certain feel about them…like a personality..
the deep Acacian lives in symbiosis with the tree..growing, supporting and protecting them..

for those who are simply interested in dmt from the trees, i would ask the following:

suppose you met an amazing teacher one day, a person who could guide you in many ways..repeatedly you seek their guidance, and each time they unselfishly help you..but obviously, like you they need to eat and keep healthy and free of disease to live..would you just keep taking from this teacher, even to the detriment of their health, without giving anything back in return? take until they die of exhaustion? and not help them support their children?
this is what some have done..

in providing to us in so many aspects of life (the Total Tree) it is not surprising that the Acacia was seen as sacred in many cultures..

a recent example of Acacian (or perhaps Floran in general) philosophy was a great post by wearepeople (respect) :

Develop a connection with the plants. Grow them, spend time with them, watch their growth, collect small amounts of seeds, learn what they like and don't like, and share what you've learned about growing with others.

DMT is the gift of the tree, which is not always ours to give.

the acacia Gives so much to us..
to be kind, and/or symbiotic, we need to give back..
and Learn, in every sense, from them..

the Acacia provides a lifetime of learning..and they are all interesting trees, whatever they contain..

those who know them have respect, devotion, and affection..

the Acacian honours the Trees, knowing their depth, and gives something back..

if we make it to the stars, we will carry seeds of these trees..

@

 

[ooo0ooo]

Since I wandered wide-eyed and innocent into this land my perception has changed remarkably concerning the natural landscape around me - Burb-ville, NSW. It's the little things that now take on so much more resonance as I continue to (re)connect with the landscape around me...

When I think of "Acacian Philosophy", it is this process of change that immediately springs to mind. From my earliest days of base intent to harm and harvest for purely selfish reasons, I've been taught how shallow and misguided that approach was. While I am thankful I've not contributed to the wholesale slaughter of THAT species sitting on my doorstep, I realise that in a lot of ways, it's the tree itself that has taught me this changed philosophy. So Acacia as TEACHER is the first thought that springs to mind - I would not be the closet tree-hugging environmentalist in business suit and tie without the lessons in majesty I've received from this species.

And in that evolution is where I've noticed firsthand the power of Acacia as HEALER. Wherever I go and find the fractured rift of damaged land being reclaimed to nature, it is always the longifolias I find bringing life back to barren ground, regenerating from fire and bringing green back to wasteland.

Honestly, these lessons and discoveries -- these reconnections with my past selves -- have been just as powerful as any hyperdimensional voyage...

And more real.

...and nen, your guidance here in this single thread has been absolutely transformational. Thank you.

0.

 

[ooo0ooo]

I'm also REALLY interested in this -

the other thing i've been pondering, and will gradually be getting more public about, is spiritual approaches to these plants..
this is subjective, and i don't advocate any single belief system, however in my opinion and experience, to go further than intermittent experimentation with these plant teachers, to really integrate them into one's life requires some kind of focus and discipline..

 

[nen888]

..thank you for your comments ooo0ooo, much appreciate them..

it sounds like on the path of spiritual tree awareness you already are >

it's the tree itself that has taught me this changed philosophy. So Acacia as TEACHER is the first thought that springs to mind - I would not be the closet tree-hugging environmentalist in business suit and tie without the lessons in majesty I've received from this species.

And in that evolution is where I've noticed firsthand the power of Acacia as HEALER. Wherever I go and find the fractured rift of damaged land being reclaimed to nature, it is always the longifolias I find bringing life back to barren ground, regenerating from fire and bringing green back to wasteland.

Honestly, these lessons and discoveries -- these reconnections with my past selves -- have been just as powerful as any hyperdimensional voyage...

And more real.

..but, yes i will talk more of these things in the future..
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in the meanwhile i have been able to see some ideas i had on information theory actualise in the time this thread has been going..
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