Trying to improve Acacia information

[nen888]

^..that's no animal..!
cockatoos can rip off acacia bark (in search of grubs which they can hear (!) by placing their heads against the trunk), but it's never a ring, clean like that (and doesn't harm the trees..only the grubs)
.hmm..

 

[Keeper Trout]

Pirateb0b-
They say when it rains it pours but that seems to be taking it a bit far.
Best wishes for the outcome.
kt

nen888-
I noticed there were some complanata pictures on my hard drive from the first time I went to NSW and thought they might be worth adding. I'm happy to see them uploaded here or anywhere that would be useful but also have plenty of space so am happy to save on space I occupy in the thread.

http://www.largelyaccurateinformationmedia.com/Acacia_complanata.html

Wira -
I heard the same thing from Dennis. He also joked he figured they didn't need alkaloids if they were living in Hawaii.
I suspect those two sacred Acacias (kaoaiensis & koaia) might be a different story if someone ever tests them.

 

[---ooo0ooo---]

Pirateb0b-
They say when it rains it pours but that seems to be taking it a bit far.
Best wishes for the outcome.
kt

Seconded! Hope you don't get washed away PB.

0.

 

[nen888]

..hey pirateb0b..just survived the cyclone myself..!
hope your tree makes it..

thankyou Keeper Trout for that link..i think A. complanata deserves some follow-up..
and i agree with you about the hawaiian acacias..without a bit more info i don't think we can regard Dennis McKenna's testing as thorough..

 

[nen888]

..going back to Africa..
and Acacia nilotica's many medicinal uses..

Some crude acacia extracts seem to have stronger antioxidant properties than either vitamin C or vitamin E

Antioxidants in the Traditional Diet of the Maasai

Root - The roots are used against cancers and/or tumors (of ear, eye, or testicles), tuberculosis and indurations of liver and spleen.

..from Acacia nilotica: A plant of multipurpose medicinal uses Atif Ali et al. 2012

Uses:

Leaf - Chemoprventive, anitmutagenic, anti bacterial, anticancer, astringent, anti microbial activity Tender leaves are used to treat diarrhea, Aphrodisiac, dressing of ulcers,anti-inflammatory and Alzheimer’s diseases.

Gum - Astringent, emollient, liver tonic, antipyretic and antiasthmatic.

Stem bark - Anti bacterial, antioxidant, anti-mutagenic, cytotoxic bark is used as astringent, acrid cooling, styptic, emollient, anthelmintic, aphrodisiac, diuretic, expectorant, emetic, nutritive, in hemorrhage, wound ulcers, leprosy, leucoderma, small pox, skin diseases, biliousness, burning sensation, toothache, leucoderma, dysentery and seminal weakness. The trunk bark is used for cold, bronchitis, diarrhoea, dysentery, biliousness, bleeding piles and leucoderma.

Seeds - Spasmogenic activity and antiplasmodial activity.

Pods -Anti hypertensive and antispasmodic, anti-diarrhoerial, astringent,anti-fertility and against HIV-1 PR, Inhibited HIV-1 induced cythopathogenicity, antiplatelet aggregatory activity and anti oxidant.

now, the mysterious alkaloids of the species (reminder Oliver-Bever 1986 say 'tryptamine & harmane derviatives' )
several recent scientific papers note the ocurrance of alkaloids, without naming them
e.g.

Various Acacia species have been reported to be effective against a variety of disease including malaria, leprosy and most concerning cancer. The fresh plant parts of different Acacia species are considered as astringent, spasmolytic, demulcent, anthelmintic and abortifacient in Indian traditional medicine system. Currently, numerous herbal products derived from Acacia species are available in market. In present exploration, a total of five species of genus Acacia including: Acacia nilotica ssp. indica (Benth.) A. F. Hill, Acacia tortilis (Forsk.) Hayne, Acacia senegal (L.) Willd., Acacia catechu (L.)Willd, Acacia jacquemontii Benth were undertaken for preliminary ethnomedicinal and antimicrobial screening. Subsequently, the two most active species: A. catechu and A. nilotica were further considered for detail pharmacognostical studies. During antimicrobial screening experiments, A. catechu and A. nilotica exhibited highest activity against three bacterial (Escherichia coli, Staphylococcus aureus and Salmonella typhi) and two fungal strain (Candida albicans and Aspergillus niger). The pharmacognostical study revealed that both species (A. catechu and A. nilotica) can be distinguished on the basis of their macroscopic, microscopic and phytochemical characters. Different plant parts (bark and pods) of both species were found to contain various secondary metabolites such as alkaloids, flavanoids, tannins and sponins.

Comparative pharmacognostical and antimicrobial studies of acacia species (Mimosaceae)
Mohan Lal Saini et al. 2008

..very effective medicine..but what alkaloids?
also of interest from that paper:

a triterpnoid (avicin) isolated from Acacia victoriae has inhibited the tumor cell growth and induced apoptosis by perturbing mitochondria functions in effected host cell (Haridas et al., 2001).

in fact, the amount of positive results for medicinal activity from A. nilotica and other acacias is becoming overwhelming..as is the failure to actually identify the alkaloids..!!

in Research Journal of Pharmaceutical, Biological and Chemical Sciences
Preliminary Physico-Phytochemical Study of the bark of Acacia nilotica Anita Shakya et al. 2012:
(now attached as of Feb.2016)
..alkaloids and flavonoids were found..non-polar extracts around 5-6% of total plant material..i have attached the re-agent test chart below..all very tantilising, without actual identification of the alkaloids..one of the Rf values of a methanol/choroform extract was 0.46 (very close to DMT's 0.48 )
this was in India..we know, of course, that A. nilotica has around 9 subspecies..see p19 here..also, see p40 for bioassay/probable tryptamine info..

(for images see 2 posts on)
attached image of preliminary phytochemical screening chart..[see next post]

 

[nen888]

^..with regards to the results chart above..[Shakya et al. 2012]
we can see from Colorimetric test results that for reagents, dimethyltryptamine:

Dragendorff's - positive with spray - (silical gel) - (5)
- Red-Brown - (paper) - (18 )

..Mayers (from memory) is creamy with tryptamines, but am still trying to find any data on Mayers reagent colorimetric reactions..
but, based on the Dragendorf's reagent, and the Rf value..
looks like formal result of highly likely DMT in Acacia nilotica..
.

 

[Infundibulum]

^..with regards to the results chart above..[Shakya et al. 2012]
we can see from Colorimetric test results that for reagents, dimethyltryptamine:

Dragendorff's - positive with spray - (silical gel) - (5)
- Red-Brown - (paper) - (18 )

..Mayers (from memory) is creamy with tryptamines, but am still trying to find any data on Mayers reagent colorimetric reactions..
but, based on the Dragendorf's reagent, and the Rf value..
looks like formal result of highly likely DMT in Acacia nilotica..
.

nen, I've TLC'ed Acacia nilotica bark and there was nothing sort of close to dmt in there. That matches Chocobeastie's observation as reported in this thread...

Of course it could be that both me and choco happened to work with the wrong subspecies and/or material harvested in the wrong time/wrong way, but argh, how is it ever possible to get something useful from a plant that can be so inconsistent?

 

[nen888]

^..Infundibulum
..the thing about A. nilotica is that, despite being classed as a single species by systematic botanists, it's sub-species are quite distinct in pod shape and seed..[see p19]
when plants have not been selected/standardised (as is the case for common herbs) then such research needs to be done..hence this thread
now, if the sub-species are consistent in some being tryptamine +ve, and others not, could explain this, rather than seasonal variation..this is why i've so emphasised the sub-varieties of nilotica..

..it is entirely an arbitrary decision to class all forms as a single species..
in other cases (e.g. some australian species) very similar forms are split into different species..
this, from a utilisation perspective, is potentially more helpful..
plants without long histories of selection can have 'chemical races' or chemotypes..
an example would be the australian Duboisa myoporides (Solanaceae) which in Victoria contains atropine as the principle alkaloid, in most of NSW contains instead scopolamine as the main alkaloid (this chemotype is harvested for scopolamine for opthalmic medicine), where as in another part of NSW it contains no atropine or scopolamine, but instead nor-nicotine (anabasine) as the principal alkaloid [Lassak & McCarthy 1986]..these chemotypes are consistent, but the plant looks the same in all regions..

being sure what sub-species of A. nilotica is being tested would clear this up..in other words the data for your test Infundibulum could be more precise in this regard, same with chocobeasties 2nd hand india report..
in the case of A. mearnsii i think identification between it and very similar bi-pinnate species can confuse people..material i carefully checked in victoria was positive for tryptamines (will send off to nexus for test), but, it also may be seasonally variable..but, as i mentioned a few posts back, there are many cases of A. floribunda/obtusifolia/maidenii where alkaloids can be almost absent from bark at some times of year and seem to have migrated to the phyllodes..

..the subspecies of A. nilotica are also regionally distinct, but to confuse matters, several african varieties are now naturalised in asia..also, the polyploid nature of acacias results in yet more expressions within a gene pool..

A. nilotica subsp. kraussiana is the variety which has oral activity in east africa
A. nilotica subsp. adstringens (more tropical west africa and sudan) tested negative for alkaloids
Phlux achieved a +ve result in another part of africa (Phlux?)
Shakya et al. 2012 may be A. nilotica subsp. indica

the complete current definition [Brenan, (1983)] of subspecies is:

nilotica Nile Valley, SW Sahel and Sudano-Guinean ecozone of W Africa
adstringens (Schum. & Thonn.) Roberty South Sahara, Sahel and Soudano-Guinean ecozones, E Africa.
indica (Benth.) Brenan India (Rajasthan), Yemen, Oman, Pakistan, Manyanmar (= Burma) ; introduced to E Africa (Somalia).
cupressiformis (J.L. Stewart) Ali & Faruqi NW India, Rajasthan
hemispherica Ali & Faruqi W Pakistan, Sind.
kraussiana (Benth.) Brenan E Africa (Kenya, Ethiopia,Somalia)
leiocarpa Brenan S & SE Africa (Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia, S Africa
subalata (Vatke) Brenan E & SE Africa (Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, Somalia, Ethiopia)
tomentosa (Benth.) Brenan Flooding areas in the Sahel, Sudanian and Guinean ecozones N of the Equator to NW Uganda.

Polyploidy (Fagg, 1992, Fagg & Stewart, 1994, Wickens et al., 1995) :

subsp. tomentosa hexadecaploid, 16 n = 208, riverine
subsp. nilotica, octoploid, 8 n = 104, riverine
subsp.adstringens, tetraploid, 4 n = 52, sub-riverine savanna.
The other subsp. are tetra ploid, 4 n = 52, dry savannas and woodlands.

so, below: 4 different sub-species of nilotica, showing distinct pod shapes..
the last photo was captioned: "One tree bearing its fruit at the moment is the 'Scented-pod thorn', or Acacia nilotica.
These pods have a sweet scent when opened, and are a favourite food for giraffe, antelope, monkeys and baboons."

pictured are
i) subsp. indica (in Oman, also found Yemen, India)
ii) subsp. cupressiformis (found Pakistan/N.W. India)
iii) subsp. tomentosa (equatorial Africa)
iv) subsp. leiocarpa (found S. Africa)

 

[Infundibulum]

Infundibulum could be more precise in this regard, same with chocobeasties 2nd hand india report..

That is true...

It is just too bad that it was vendor bought (not entheos-related vendor), which means it might have been misidentified/mislabelled/mistreated in any way possible. This is where collaboration with experienced botanists and analysts is important.

PS;I wouldn't know how to identify plants by looking at them alone, but I'd look at their DNA sequences if I had samples. There exist identifier DNA sequences for 8 nilotica subspecies; this is the way i'd go (as DNA taxonomy is the gold standard today) since I'm more of a molecular biology dude than a botanist.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Browser/wwwtax.cgi?id=138033

 

[shanedudddy2]

Anyone had any first hand success with Acacia Pycnantha?
Do people think I should attempt to find some and try an extraction?
Have tried so many failed extractions on local sources (Cyclops, Victoriae, Phalaris grass) that I am losing faith
Trying to find anything which will result in spice (that is within an hour or so drive) so I do not have to order online....but alas, my location seems to be terrible :/.
Any help would be most helpful.

 

[nen888]

...
It is just too bad that it was vendor bought (not entheos-related vendor), which means it might have been misidentified/mislabelled/mistreated in any way possible. This is where collaboration with experienced botanists and analysts is important.

..a couple of the recent phytochemical studies of A. nilotica say that, for medicinal and economic importance, standardisation of the species needs to be researched..i'm glad this is finally happening 2012 and beyond..
it's important for vendors to get their research right with regards to acacia ID..some don't, and this helps no one..

PS;I wouldn't know how to identify plants by looking at them alone, but I'd look at their DNA sequences if I had samples. There exist identifier DNA sequences for 8 nilotica subspecies; this is the way i'd go (as DNA taxonomy is the gold standard today) since I'm more of a molecular biology dude than a botanist.

..it has been argued that DNA/molecular ID should be the basis of plant classification, rather than the visual external method of current systematic botany..Kew Gardens in England is getting really good at molecular ID these days..

..have ID'd the A. nilotica subspecies pictured to help researchers..(and moved earlier pic to last post)
personally, i would expect plants with pods that different to have different chemistry going on, however botany chooses to name and classify them..note the polyploid in the subspecies chart above with 16 sets of chromosomes! (a polyploid tree like this could really 'morph' and would be possibly one of the more elusive in content)
.

..only by consistent experiment and observation can a lore of consistent species, which can then be grown, be achieved..that is part of the aims of this thread..hence, with comparative data, we can say that we know A. acuminata, A. confusa, A. floribunda (if ID'd correctly), A. neurophylla, and several others (some rarer) are consistent..i would predict early that A. leiocalyx, a very 'new' species, is consistent, and also A. mabellae and some others looked at..

consistency in African species has much work to be done to arrive at..

keep the data incoming africans!
.

 

[nen888]

Anyone had any first hand success with Acacia Pycnantha?
Do people think I should attempt to find some and try an extraction?
Have tried so many failed extractions on local sources (Cyclops, Victoriae, Phalaris grass) that I am losing faith
Trying to find anything which will result in spice (that is within an hour or so drive) so I do not have to order online....but alas, my location seems to be terrible :/.
Any help would be most helpful.

..the thing shanedudddy2 about acacia research (or any plant alkaloid research) is that there are essentially two branches:
..either i) you research already researched species and find which species are consistent; or ii) you just research acacias, happy to find or not find things..

A. pycnantha..well, a team of uni phytochemists had good success with bark in the early 90s..and Snu Voogelbreinder (author of Garden of Eden) had success with small amounts in the phyllode (in victoria),
and it has a couple known alkaloid positive results..i don't live anywhere near it so can't keep up the research..
so, obviously 2 known tests is not a huge amount of data

now, in the examples you gave:
A. cyclops has 2 known +ves (in Western Australia and South Africa) ..after rain a 2nd S. african test was minimal..
also it is easy to mistake forms of A. melanoxylon for it..very fine ID required, phyllode pattern and aril are keys..
A. victoriae..again can be mistaken..has varieties..2 known +ves, bioassay of flinders ranges strain..
Phalaris grass..i wrote in the Phalaris=The Way of the Future thread that it is very important to source root divisions (clones) of known reliable strains (of which there are a few, as confirmed by tests at the nexus)

 

[shanedudddy2]

May I ask what a +ve indicates?
I think I`ll try and find cyclops again, and take considerable pictures for verification checks, perhaps it's seasonal as well.
Tomorrow, I`ll try and find some Pycnantha, Victoriae, and Cyclops, combine them all (100g of each) and see how I go :/ *crosses fingers*
If I get a result, then I know one of the 3 are active, and can individually perform separate extractions on each of them.
It's just after performing many failed extractions, I`d like to save my time and money.
Can you see any problem with my planned methodology?
Thanks

 

[nen888]

^..'+ve' means 'positive' meaning that alkaloids have been positively found in a test (usually TLC or similar, see index for 'testing proceedures'..and '-ve' = negative..

..personally i don't think it's such a good idea to combine species as they can have differing conditions as to what will free the alkaloids..remember, there is no 'same measurement every time'..species differ..
myself, i carefully taste the phyllodes (looking for noticeable bitter astringency) and do the 'leaf burning test' (having experimented with known material) looking for acridness..if this isn't there i don't bother (if looking for DMT..there are plenty of other things i look for as well in plants)
..i would try to look at any possible differences in these regards between examples of the same species..i.e. does a pycnantha here taste more bitter than one there..

otherwise, look for now fairly easily available re-agent test kits (erhlich's etc..) then you only need 2-4 grams of plant material to see if there are alkaloids in there, and guess what kind they are..
.
good luck with the experiments, whatever your methodology shanedudddy2..

 

[The Meddling Monk]

On page 11 # 218 nen888 wrote:

..among the biggest fans of acacias are giraffes..they graze on a few special species including Acacia giraffe (now considered to actually be A. haematoxylon x erioloba)
..i am hoping to one day follow up strong evidence i was shown in the 90s of the leaves of this species containing DMT..

Hoping to have primitive TLC next few weeks on I think A. giraffe. How do I tell it apart from A. haematoxylon?
Material from ethiopia. Any more info on chemistry of haematoxylon? I notice it's common name is grey camel thorn.
Has slightly glaucous leaves like in photo.

 

[nen888]

..Meddling Monk, despite all sorts of claims of alkaloids as 'defence' in giraffe diet acacias, i can find no formal test looking at the alkaloids of Acacia haematoxylon..the Grey Camel Thorn is also a favourite, indeed staple food of the Black Rhino..
from Acacias v Giraffes - a Uniquely African Tussle - African Safari Consultants

Giraffes can eat as much as 29 kilograms of acacia leaves and twigs daily. Herds of three or more giraffes spend hours browsing in acacia thickets, greedily gobbling up as much of the delicious foliage as they can.

..and after reading a whole bunch of completely unreferenced/unsubstantiated claims on the web that alkaloids in acacias are a defence against being eaten by giraffes, i think this study is closer to the mark..

Besides tasting awful, tannins inhibit digestion by interfering with protein and digestive enzymes and binding to consumed plant proteins making them more difficult to digest. What’s even more amazing is that acacia trees within 50 yards react to the release of the tannin by their neighbour and jump on the bandwagon by emitting their own. The simultaneous tannin release by all nearby acacias essentially thwarts the greedy giraffe(s), who must now travel upwind to trees that have not yet ‘caught wind’ (irresistible really!) of his insatiable appetite.

but then J. A. Shaw 2012 (phd thesis) found that:

The two plant species (A. haematoxylon and G. flava) contributing the greatest proportion of the black rhino diets and showing high acceptability indices (Fig. 3a and 3c) had higher concentrations of condensed tannins than other plant species in all seasons

..after a lot of reading, i conclude that the whole concept of alkaloids as plant 'defence' from animal grazing is both un-proven, and quite flimsy in evidence..it seems other kinds of compounds may be involved if a plant wants to 'defend' itself..
..getting back to your question Monk..it's the glaucous (greyish) pinnae which distinguish A. haematoxylon partly from A. giraffe or A. erioloba (Camel Thorn) ..all fascinating trees with a host of allies in the wild..
am really looking forward to your test results!

pics a) Acacia giraffe pinnae and thorns; b) a giraffe and a. giraffe..;
c) Acacia haematoxylon pods; d) A. haematoxylon flower and pinnae
last, a Gemsbok next to Acacia haematoxylon, Northern Cape, South Africa..

 

[Major Tom]

This post is to welcome Keeper Trout , and to offer thanks for your contribution here , and also for publishing your wonderful books . I have a copy of SST and San Pedro - they are truly treasured possessions , and indeed excellent books . Furthermore , I have become a covert to the " Extreme Condition tek " in SST , which has given astonishing yields and purity - many thanks for the info , KT . Finally , I note in SST reference to sublimation as a purifying tek - I am wondering if any one has experimented with this , and the results achieved ...

 

[cave paintings]

Besides tasting awful, tannins inhibit digestion by interfering with protein and digestive enzymes and binding to consumed plant proteins making them more difficult to digest. What’s even more amazing is that acacia trees within 50 yards react to the release of the tannin by their neighbour and jump on the bandwagon by emitting their own. The simultaneous tannin release by all nearby acacias essentially thwarts the greedy giraffe(s), who must now travel upwind to trees that have not yet ‘caught wind’ (irresistible really!) of his insatiable appetite.

Hey nen! This quote got me real curious. How do the neighboring trees detect or sense the tannins? I remember reading of a certain bush that released chemicals from its root systems to alert its fellow bushes in the area of grazers, and subsequently the bush (was it an acacia? I feel you may have discussed it earlier in this thread) produced something that made it less palable/digestible/toxic or something to that effect. Here you speak of wind 'communication' however and I find it pretty interesting. Do these trees have receptors for the tannins?

 

[nen888]

^..hey cave paintings, it is very interesting..
i don't quite have the time to cover all this sort of stuff right now, but there has been a lot of work done in biology on chemical signalling between plants..this can be via roots/soil, or as gaseous release into the air, absorbed through foilage..while plants do not have anything like animal receptors/neurons, they are none the less able to transmit signals to eachother..a wide range of chemicals can be both released and absorbed through leaves..
the level of information contained in these signals is not understood..
i will dig out a great plant biology book i have somewhere when i can, which has some good references..
.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

^..heythere has been a lot of work done in biology on chemical signalling between plants..this can be via roots/soil, or as gaseous release into the air, absorbed through foilage..while plants do not have anything like animal receptors/neurons, they are none the less able to transmit signals to eachother..a wide range of chemicals can be both released and absorbed through leaves..
the level of information contained in these signals is not understood..
i will dig out a great plant biology book i have somewhere when i can, which has some good references...

could that possibly have implications in regards to the relationship of DMT and plants?