Unbearable ego death - could it be different?

[Doc Buxin]

I just can't believe in this psychedelic mysticism. The feeling of oneness is too easily explained as a delusion due to altered brain function. It even seems quite obvious that the more limited your mental faculties the more reality would seem like that. Not to say that it couldn't be true but I don't think the psychedelic experience is credible evidence for it.

Also, "unconsciousness" doesn't really seem to fit into this worldview.

For me, the experience hasn't really provided any answers of this sort, only brought up or made me more aware of the questions.

Uh-huh.... and.....? :?

Oh DmnStr8, you are much more patient and kind than I.

I so love and appreciate you!:thumb_up:

 

[sighmon]

Uh-huh.... and.....? :?

Oh DmnStr8, you are much more patient and kind than I.

I don't understand, did I walk into some kind of cult?
I was interested in others' experience with ego deaths, not a religious re-education.
Theories about the nature of the experience can be interesting too, but not stated as facts without evidence in such condescending manner. (only referring to the last few posts)

 

[Doc Buxin]

Ok, perhaps I will attempt to make my point a little clearer to you in hopes that you don't brush it off as if it were yesterday's newspaper like you did in the first go-round.


If you are experiencing such intense anxiety ("social" or whatever one wants to label it) that you would choose to ingest a benzodiazepine-class drug, that will dessicate your liver (among other organs) faster than tobacco or alcohol ever will and engender more anxiety episodes down the road, then you have an emotional issue that you need to focus on and work towards resolving.

Why, you may ask, does an emotional issue need to be worked on? And what, you may ask, does this have to do with my psychedelic experiences?

Well, perhaps you have not noticed yet, but psychedelic experiences can turn you "inside out" so to speak. If dived into deep enough and long enough these experiences will shine a light on every single dark corner of your entire psyche. Corners that you didn't even know existed.

Thus, when one is employing anxiolytic pharmaceuticals 52-104 times per year to deal with underlying emotional issues, I feel, from the depth and breadth of my experience that this is going to have a not-so-subtle affect upon your psychedelic experiences and not in a positive way.

I hope that this is clear enough for you.

If you still want to deny my sincere advice, then at least you could respond with a, "gee Doc, that's a n interesting way of looking at it, thanks". And leave it at that.

 

[tseuq]

I just can't believe in this psychedelic mysticism. The feeling of oneness is too easily explained as a delusion due to altered brain function. It even seems quite obvious that the more limited your mental faculties the more reality would seem like that. Not to say that it couldn't be true but I don't think the psychedelic experience is credible evidence for it.

Also, "unconsciousness" doesn't really seem to fit into this worldview.

For me, the experience hasn't really provided any answers of this sort, only brought up or made me more aware of the questions.

It is not about believing anything nor a contradiction on a transrational mindset.

Transrational, or "transrational reality," refers to the experience of objective nonpersonal, nonrational phenomena occurring in the natural universe, information and experience that does not readily fit into standard cause and effect logical structure; the kinds of experience that typically are labeled and dismissed as superstition, irrational, and, in the extreme, abnormal or crazy. It differs from the ‘supernatural’ and the ‘rational’ in that it neither directly controverts nor affirms logical sense or reason. A transrational experience is not pathological. The transrational does not engage with the question of how to sensibly fit an experience into a rational framework, instead allowing the experience to remain as it was experienced or witnessed, uninterpreted by rational sensemaking or meaning-making. The experience is what it is and is taken on its own terms.

Remembering a small conversation with our beloved fellow pitubo ...

Maybe we should all drop acid instead? Then again, I can still be an argumentative bitch on acid too,..

Haha, yes pitubo, that sounds like a lot of fun! I am already giggeling when I imagine this picture in my mind.

Let's sharpen our minds fellows and stay critical .......and have fun.

Boom, tseuq

 

[Intezam]

I just can't believe in this psychedelic mysticism. The feeling of oneness is too easily explained as a delusion due to altered brain function. It even seems quite obvious that the more limited your mental faculties the more reality would seem like that. Not to say that it couldn't be true but I don't think the psychedelic experience is credible evidence for it.

Also, "unconsciousness" doesn't really seem to fit into this worldview.

For me, the experience hasn't really provided any answers of this sort, only brought up or made me more aware of the questions.

I don't understand, did I walk into some kind of cult?

Uh-huh.... and.....? :?

hhhhmmmh....we think we understand now, if you have no other choice then, perhaps you need to partake in tasneem (5-MeO) THX to the Ineffable we (intezam) has been left with a choice and we is shy to face the Hoo directly......:shock:

 

[○]

The feeling of oneness is too easily explained as a delusion due to altered brain function.

Care to elaborate on this? I'm curious on how you'd explain it?

It even seems quite obvious that the more limited your mental faculties the more reality would seem like that. Not to say that it couldn't be true but I don't think the psychedelic experience is credible evidence for it.

Can you explain as to why it seems 'quite obvious'?

How would you know of other's mental faculties and how their own lives would seem to them?

 

[Exitwound]

The feeling of oneness is too easily explained as a delusion due to altered brain function.

Care to elaborate on this? I'm curious on how you'd explain it?

Not trying to explain insted of sighmon, just dropping my 2c:

Oneness is a state of your brain and you feel it, that makes it real. Doesn't matter that it happens during high doses of psychedelics. Imagine if such feeling was a baseline, due to slightly alternative brain chemistry - how different world would be today?

 

[○]

Oneness is a state of your brain and you feel it, that makes it real.

Agreed

as could be said for any of the numerous states of the brain, even our most renowned and revered brain state - everyday waking/consensus reality.

What's not a 'state of the brain'? Can't say that I've ever seen reality, as it stands, outside of my skull? :lol:

Doesn't matter that it happens during high doses of psychedelics.

It doesn't matter? For me what I feel, see and experience during dmt is obviously much different from right now as I sit here. How couldn't it matter given that?

I don't understand, did I walk into some kind of cult?

We're not so bad...

:twisted:

 

[ETERNAL]

Oneness is real because oneness is actual reality. We are it and it is us. We are infinite energy and consciousness. Your brain, my brain, our body, our nature, our consciousness, our energy and our spirit are all non-dual.

 

[dragonrider]

I've had such an experience as well, when i drank ayahuasca with chaliponga.

I didn't feel any physical pain, but i did feel a sudden, very strong identification with my body and a very strong awareness of it. I felt all the fluids pumping around, in every vessel. The air in my lungs, and food being processed throughout my whole digestive tract.
It was terrible, being reduced to nothing but flesh.
And there was the feeling as well, of being stuck in a loop.

There's that sensation that everything you ever believed in, or cared about, is a lie. You are just a biological machine and nothing more. Even your higher executive functions are just the result of chemical processes. All the love you ever felt is just a pattern of neurons firing. There is no you. There is no meaning. All meaning is instinct, recursion and relations.

Ego-death is supposed to be a frightening experience. Even budhist monks who meditate for years and years, go through a phase of terror. It is completely normal.
It is only fair to say that much of the feelings of bliss that people go through after an ego-death experience, can be attributed to the gradual returning of the ego.

 

[DmnStr8]

Cult? Geez.. Louise! Far from it my friend. I despise anything cult like. You have many personalities in here. We all have our own take on these things.

Does any of what people are offering here resonate with you in any way? I mean you stated you had an unbearable ego death.. some may say this is wandering into cultish thinking in some form. These altered states of mind are what they are. The bring about the ineffable and sink us into the unknown. You can take it as brain chemistry and I think that is fine, but how do you go about decribing the feeling and visions? It is a fine line when attempting to describe it.

If you feel that what has been offered is to be sloughed off, that's cool. Do your thang. If you continue to go back into hyperspace it will show you things beyond any kind of logic. You experienced it first hand. Your unbearable ego death is an introduction into a deeper pool. Make of it what you will. You brought it up. Participate in the conversation without being dismissive and you may find that no one here is cultish. In fact, everyone is trying to help you, including myself.

I appreciate your experience and have done my best to understand and respond. I hope your future ventures into hyperspace, if you choose to continue to partake, are more bearable for you and more to your liking, it is very nice when the peaceful and nice trip comes along! I also hope you can find some gratitude when others attempt to help you when you encounter another difficult trip.

Good luck to you!

Have a great day!

 

[ETERNAL]

I don't understand, did I walk into some kind of cult?

Once you drink the cyanide Kool aid, you will understand.

 

[Exitwound]

as could be said for any of the numerous states of the brain, even our most renowned and revered brain state - everyday waking/consensus reality.

What's not a 'state of the brain'? Can't say that I've ever seen reality, as it stands, outside of my skull? :lol:

Everything is a state of brain, which is exactly my point.
You see baseline reality every day but probably not through the eyes and brains of different being, another person's perception of reality probably is somewhat different.

We humans, are calibrated more or less the same to baseline reality. We all know what common colours are and what geometric objects are called and what to do when you see lion running at you.

I strongly believe that some people (notably, great artists for example) perceive baseline reality notably differently and if you had a drug which would put you inside the skull of, say, Dali, that would be hell of a trip itself I bet.

It doesn't matter? For me what I feel, see and experience during dmt is obviously much different from right now as I sit here. How couldn't it matter given that?

Of course it is different and it matters what state you are in, what I meant is that being influenced by DMT doesn't make that other alien and sometimes scary reality less real than this "I'm here posting stuff on internet forum" reality

We're not so bad...

:twisted:

- Hall for animal sacrifices is to the left, demonic ritual and blood donation center is on the third floor, Our Deputy Tormentor Larry will show you around.

 

[○]

Cult? Geez.. Louise! Far from it my friend. I despise anything cult like. You have many personalities in here. We all have our own take on these things.

Does any of what people are offering here resonate with you in any way? I mean you stated you had an unbearable ego death.. some may say this is wandering into cultish thinking in some form. These altered states of mind are what they are. The bring about the ineffable and sink us into the unknown. You can take it as brain chemistry and I think that is fine, but how do you go about decribing the feeling and visions? It is a fine line when attempting to describe it.

If you feel that what has been offered is to be sloughed off, that's cool. Do your thang. If you continue to go back into hyperspace it will show you things beyond any kind of logic. You experienced it first hand. Your unbearable ego death is an introduction into a deeper pool. Make of it what you will. You brought it up. Participate in the conversation without being dismissive and you may find that no one here is cultish. In fact, everyone is trying to help you, including myself.

I appreciate your experience and have done my best to understand and respond. I hope your future ventures into hyperspace, if you choose to continue to partake, are more bearable for you and more to your liking, it is very nice when the peaceful and nice trip comes along! I also hope you can find some gratitude when others attempt to help you when you encounter another difficult trip.

Good luck to you!

Have a great day!

Dang, you said it a million times better than I did :d

Great words DmnStr8 ..fellow cult member

 

[hug46]

If you are experiencing such intense anxiety ("social" or whatever one wants to label it) that you would choose to ingest a benzodiazepine-class drug, that will dessicate your liver (among other organs) faster than tobacco or alcohol ever will and engender more anxiety episodes down the road, then you have an emotional issue that you need to focus on and work towards resolving.

Or it could just mean that Sighmon has the kind of job that requires self medication in certain situations that are stressful......

 

[sighmon]

Ok, perhaps I will attempt to make my point a little clearer to you in hopes that you don't brush it off as if it were yesterday's newspaper like you did in the first go-round.

Well, what can I say, thanks for your concern but with the small dose and frequency I'm using it it's perfectly safe. Much less harmful than the average person's alcohol or tobacco consumption I'm sure. And it's not like I'm self medicating, I'm getting it prescribed by a licensed doctor who knows me well. I really doubt that the benzos would affect my experience with psychedelics more than a few beers every now and then, it just makes no sense pharmacologically. The anxiety on the other hand may well affect the experience (though I only have social anxiety and never felt anxious when I was taking it, besides regular pre-trip anxiety) but then what can I do about that anyway, it's not like I haven't been in therapy for over a decade already.

The feeling of oneness is too easily explained as a delusion due to altered brain function.

Care to elaborate on this? I'm curious on how you'd explain it?

It even seems quite obvious that the more limited your mental faculties the more reality would seem like that. Not to say that it couldn't be true but I don't think the psychedelic experience is credible evidence for it.

Can you explain as to why it seems 'quite obvious'?

How would you know of other's mental faculties and how their own lives would seem to them?

Differentiating between yourself and your environment (or any two things for that matter) is a brain function. If that function stops working (e.g., because of a drug) then I would assume that would have to feel like everything is one. Seems like a more plausible explanation to me than jumping to extreme conclusions about the nature of reality. And as far as I know there is no evidence besides it "feeling" real. No one's ever come back from tripping with the next week's lottery numbers or anything like that.

I think with the second part you misunderstood me, I meant only the mental faculties under the influence of the drug.

Oneness is a state of your brain and you feel it, that makes it real.

In a sense. I'm not denying that the experience is as real as any experience, but there's a distinction between the reality of an experience of something and the reality of that thing. Usually I think most people refer to the latter when they talk about reality because the former isn't very practically useful.

Consider an amputee who still feels his arm. His experience of his arm may be as real as my experience of mine, but that doesn't mean his arm is real and that has very important practical implications. E.g., I can pick up a ball with mine and he cannot.

Cult? Geez.. Louise! Far from it my friend. I despise anything cult like. You have many personalities in here. We all have our own take on these things.

Yeah, never mind that. I interpreted the comment about "patience" I quoted as a response to my skepticism about what Eternal posted, so I overreacted, when it turns out he was talking about the Benzos. Still, I think even the seemingly insignificant formality of adding "I think", "I believe", "It seems" or something rather than just "It is" can go a long way of creating a less dogmatic feeling to a discussion.

 

[sighmon]

I've had such an experience as well, when i drank ayahuasca with chaliponga.

I didn't feel any physical pain, but i did feel a sudden, very strong identification with my body and a very strong awareness of it. I felt all the fluids pumping around, in every vessel. The air in my lungs, and food being processed throughout my whole digestive tract.
It was terrible, being reduced to nothing but flesh.
And there was the feeling as well, of being stuck in a loop.

There's that sensation that everything you ever believed in, or cared about, is a lie. You are just a biological machine and nothing more. Even your higher executive functions are just the result of chemical processes. All the love you ever felt is just a pattern of neurons firing. There is no you. There is no meaning. All meaning is instinct, recursion and relations.

Ego-death is supposed to be a frightening experience. Even budhist monks who meditate for years and years, go through a phase of terror. It is completely normal.
It is only fair to say that much of the feelings of bliss that people go through after an ego-death experience, can be attributed to the gradual returning of the ego.

Wow, that reminds me of my experience so much. I think it's possible I felt the same thing as you and interpreted it differently/wrongly.

Also the second paragraph I identify very strongly with. Gave me goosebumps while reading it. It's not entirely like just being a machine though. It's experience without control. That's what makes it so horrible, still being forced to experience it. If you could let go it wouldn't be so bad. There are like two horrible realizations in sequence. First the one you described in your second paragraph and then a bit later the one that it will always be like that and there is no escape from being forced to still experience it. I thought it wasn't my body mainly because I felt being severed from it so clearly at the start I guess, but maybe just my understanding of it was shattered.

Damn, I'm getting anxiety again from reading your post. I can only take comfort in the idea that with real death experience also ends. At least the second realization seems quite likely to be a delusion to me.

I also remembered another aspect of the experience now. I guess it still was like becoming one in a sense. It felt like as if the air solidified. Air didn't seem like something I could move through anymore but something I was stuck in or that is part of me, making moving pointless because
... well I'm starting to ramble too much, gotta think on it some before writing more

 

[nexalizer]

Differentiating between yourself and your environment (or any two things for that matter) is a brain function. If that function stops working (e.g., because of a drug) then I would assume that would have to feel like everything is one. Seems like a more plausible explanation to me than jumping to extreme conclusions about the nature of reality. And as far as I know there is no evidence besides it "feeling" real. No one's ever come back from tripping with the next week's lottery numbers or anything like that.

I don't think it has anything to do with bringing back lottery numbers.

More with deeply realizing within your being that who you are and what you observe are the same thing. That you are it.

Awareness, aware of itself.
Nothing could exist without Awareness.

And thus, you gaze upon Yourself.

All is One.


This does not mean that you are not also an individual. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[sighmon]

Differentiating between yourself and your environment (or any two things for that matter) is a brain function. If that function stops working (e.g., because of a drug) then I would assume that would have to feel like everything is one. Seems like a more plausible explanation to me than jumping to extreme conclusions about the nature of reality. And as far as I know there is no evidence besides it "feeling" real. No one's ever come back from tripping with the next week's lottery numbers or anything like that.

I don't think it has anything to do with bringing back lottery numbers.

More with deeply realizing within your being that who you are and what you observe are the same thing. That you are it.

Awareness, aware of itself.
Nothing could exist without Awareness.

And thus, you gaze upon Yourself.

All is One.


This does not mean that you are not also an individual. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Well, "oneness" isn't actually such an unambiguous concept as it might seem. And if we proceed to define it more clearly, like in my reply about the amputee and experience, it's easy to choose a definition such that it is likely reality, but is that gonna be a useful definition?

In a sense the border between my body and my environment as I perceive it is arbitrary and is an illusion that my brain creates. If that's what you mean by oneness then I tend to agree, in fact it's almost self evident. I feel like a lot of people have a much more mystical understanding of oneness though and I think we must be clear that that does not follow from this. For example that all conscious beings have some sort of mental connection certainly does not follow from anything self evident that I am aware of.

 

[nexalizer]

Differentiating between yourself and your environment (or any two things for that matter) is a brain function. If that function stops working (e.g., because of a drug) then I would assume that would have to feel like everything is one. Seems like a more plausible explanation to me than jumping to extreme conclusions about the nature of reality. And as far as I know there is no evidence besides it "feeling" real. No one's ever come back from tripping with the next week's lottery numbers or anything like that.

I don't think it has anything to do with bringing back lottery numbers.

More with deeply realizing within your being that who you are and what you observe are the same thing. That you are it.

Awareness, aware of itself.
Nothing could exist without Awareness.

And thus, you gaze upon Yourself.

All is One.


This does not mean that you are not also an individual. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Well, "oneness" isn't actually that clearly defined. In fact, like in my reply about the amputee and experience, it's easy to define oneness so that it is likely true, but is that gonna be a useful definition?

In a sense the border between my body and my environment as I perceive it is arbitrary and is an illusion that my brain creates. If that's what you mean by oneness then I tend to agree, in fact it's almost self evident. I feel like a lot of people have a much more mystical understanding of oneness though and I think we must be clear that that does not follow from this. For example that all conscious beings have some sort of mental connection certainly does not follow from anything self evident that I am aware of.

I don't particularly care about defining it. Words only reach so far.

I meant more or less what you said. The barrier is there, very strong all our lives (when it wasn't, we were too young to remember), and I don't think that's self-evident at all.

Our sense of self is a very strong thing, it's not until it's demolished through a psychedelic or a deep meditation and similar experiences, that you realize what you were contending with all the time prior.

One may know this separation to be an illusion intellectually, but nothing prepares the ego that a person attached him/herself to all his/her life for the realization through experience that this is actually so.

Much like words, rationality can only reach so far.
And this is from a (self-professed) pretty rational guy.

In the context I wrote, there was nothing about all beings having some sort of mental connection with each other, I also don't think that's what people generally mean when they talk about Oneness.

Could it be possible? I don't see anything to rule it out. And there's still so much more we don't know - imagine what science will know in 1000 years from now, that we cannot even imagine.

It's certainly an interesting proposition, but just because "all is one" doesn't automatically mean "my individual consciousness can access anything anywhere (because all is One)".

Or perhaps it does and we don't yet realize that. It's not clear to me either way, although based on healthy skepticism and personal experience, I default to "it's not possible".