Vaping with e-cig juice

[The Traveler]

Edit: It hasnt been confirmed but UNTM helped me locate what we believe is the boiling point of DMT and PG. Vaporization point will be just above these temperatures if they are correct.

DMT: 325.84C
PG: 186C

Sources:

Dimethyltryptamine | C12H16N2 | ChemSpider

Structure, properties, spectra, suppliers and links for: Dimethyltryptamine, N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, 61-50-7.

www.chemspider.com

(±)-1,2-propanediol | C3H8O2 | ChemSpider

In an electronic vaporizer DMT freebase vaporizes around 160-180C, depending on the vaporizer. On the Wikipedia article on DMT the boiling point is also stated as 160C.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[anrchy]

Edit: It hasnt been confirmed but UNTM helped me locate what we believe is the boiling point of DMT and PG. Vaporization point will be just above these temperatures if they are correct.

DMT: 325.84C
PG: 186C

Sources:

Dimethyltryptamine | C12H16N2 | ChemSpider

Structure, properties, spectra, suppliers and links for: Dimethyltryptamine, N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, 61-50-7.

www.chemspider.com

(±)-1,2-propanediol | C3H8O2 | ChemSpider

In an electronic vaporizer DMT freebase vaporizes around 160-180C, depending on the vaporizer. On the Wikipedia article on DMT the boiling point is also stated as 160C.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Wiki states that Dimethyltryptamines boiling point is (160C) @ 0.6 Torr. Which is under vacuum. Liquids under vacuum also have a lower boiling point then at atmosphere. At 0.03 Torr its boiling point is 80-135C.

I am not sure why this was done this way but it frustrates me. But this also means that DMT's boiling point at atmosphere (750 Torr), is higher. Like I said, chemspider may not be correct but wiki is not stating that DMT's boiling point is 160C at atmosphere.

0.6 Torr is 600 microns. I did some experiments on water under vacuum a couple years ago. Somewhere above 1000 microns the water was already violently releasing its molecules and somewhere around 600 microns it was almost completely solid ice. Very cool stuff. 600 microns is a pretty tight vacuum.

 

[The Traveler]

Edit: It hasnt been confirmed but UNTM helped me locate what we believe is the boiling point of DMT and PG. Vaporization point will be just above these temperatures if they are correct.

DMT: 325.84C
PG: 186C

Sources:

Dimethyltryptamine | C12H16N2 | ChemSpider

Structure, properties, spectra, suppliers and links for: Dimethyltryptamine, N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, 61-50-7.

www.chemspider.com

(±)-1,2-propanediol | C3H8O2 | ChemSpider

In an electronic vaporizer DMT freebase vaporizes around 160-180C, depending on the vaporizer. On the Wikipedia article on DMT the boiling point is also stated as 160C.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Wiki states that Dimethyltryptamines boiling point is (160C) @ 0.6 Torr. Which is under vacuum. Liquids under vacuum also have a lower boiling point then at atmosphere. At 0.03 Torr its boiling point is 80-135C.

I am not sure why this was done this way but it frustrates me. But this also means that DMT's boiling point at atmosphere (750 Torr), is higher. Like I said, chemspider may not be correct but wiki is not stating that DMT's boiling point is 160C at atmosphere.

0.6 Torr is 600 microns. I did some experiments on water under vacuum a couple years ago. Somewhere above 1000 microns the water was already violently releasing its molecules and somewhere around 600 microns it was almost completely solid ice. Very cool stuff. 600 microns is a pretty tight vacuum.

Thank you for the explaining.

Then the strange thing however is, that with a vaporizer set at 160-180C you are definitely vaping your DMT freebase. Not only I did that but others too when you read around the forum on vaporizers.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[anrchy]

Edit: It hasnt been confirmed but UNTM helped me locate what we believe is the boiling point of DMT and PG. Vaporization point will be just above these temperatures if they are correct.

DMT: 325.84C
PG: 186C

Sources:

Dimethyltryptamine | C12H16N2 | ChemSpider

Structure, properties, spectra, suppliers and links for: Dimethyltryptamine, N,N-Dimethyltryptamine, 61-50-7.

www.chemspider.com

(±)-1,2-propanediol | C3H8O2 | ChemSpider

In an electronic vaporizer DMT freebase vaporizes around 160-180C, depending on the vaporizer. On the Wikipedia article on DMT the boiling point is also stated as 160C.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Wiki states that Dimethyltryptamines boiling point is (160C) @ 0.6 Torr. Which is under vacuum. Liquids under vacuum also have a lower boiling point then at atmosphere. At 0.03 Torr its boiling point is 80-135C.

I am not sure why this was done this way but it frustrates me. But this also means that DMT's boiling point at atmosphere (750 Torr), is higher. Like I said, chemspider may not be correct but wiki is not stating that DMT's boiling point is 160C at atmosphere.

0.6 Torr is 600 microns. I did some experiments on water under vacuum a couple years ago. Somewhere above 1000 microns the water was already violently releasing its molecules and somewhere around 600 microns it was almost completely solid ice. Very cool stuff. 600 microns is a pretty tight vacuum.

Thank you for the explaining.

Then the strange thing however is, that with a vaporizer set at 160-180C you are definitely vaping your DMT freebase. Not only I did that but others too when you read around the forum on vaporizers.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Ya something def isnt right. I am really confused what is going on. After I baseline I will write up my report for Bioassay #2 and contemplate this issue some more.

 

[anrchy]

Ok So I am gonna throw some notes down here.

1 metric drop = .05ml
0.5ml = 10 drops

Current solution contains 250mg in approx 0.5ml

1 drop was used, if evenly distributed that would equal 12.5mg. I have to say that I agree with this. My experience, which took atleast 4 inhalations, was very congruent of a 12mg dose. And as far as I can tell exhausted the contents in those 4+ inhalations.

Vapors become more harsh the more saturated the solution is. It took much longer for the 125mg I added the second time to dissolve fully. Approx 8 hours.

The method of inhaling I used was that of when one takes a drag from a cigarette. Inhale into mouth, then inhale contents in mouth into lungs. I would hold that in while inhaling again into mouth, then inhaling that into lungs along with what was already there. I repeated this 4 or more times. I lost count because i was starting to feel it coming on after the second or third one.

Throat is a little harsh. I decided I am going to add another 0.5ml to the solution, along with another 250mg of DMT. To stay within the same saturation levels and to allow the solution to be used in a tank style, wicking clearomizer. Which is basically a tank that holds liquid, has a heating element at the bottom with a wick that goes through. It wicks the liquid into the coil. I need more solution for this to be adequate. I believe this method will decrease the harshness to a tolerable level.

 

[anrchy]

Update. I just added another 125mg DMT.

That puts the mixture at 650mg (DMT) in 1ml (PG)

Anything less than this ratio IMO is useless.

edit: 625mg.

 

[Rifle]

You should do some sort of test to see if basic solutions vs weak ethanol solutions effect the plastic parts.

First, I'd want to confirm that a DMT/PG solution is actually basic and I have neither said solution or PH strips. I also don't have any more plastic clearomizers, but I could probably score some worn out ones from friends to test. But I also think it sorta just makes sense to get a glass clearomizer anyways; they're only like 5 - 10 bucks more.

That puts the mixture at 650mg (DMT) in 1ml (PG)

Glad to hear you're getting concentrations in excees of 0.5g/ml using just PG. That could simplify things a bit since PG/PEG-400 also doesn't seem as harsh as I feared; if such a solution wicks fine, I probably can forget about messing with including ethanol. I wish I had a better measure on the concentration of my solution that worked so well that one time, but best guess was about .75g/ml based on the final volume. Are you noticing any increase in volume after mixing the DMT in? Or is the volume measured with w/ the DMT already in it?

 

[anrchy]

Ya the dmt is definitely increasing the over all volume. I don't think I have reached full saturation yet. I hypothesize that I can get a full 1:1 ratio of dmt/PG.

I believe this ratio would be a must. I'm very confused as to how OP was supposedly able to achieve much from a 500mg/3ml mixture.

I'm also afraid that it won't wick well. But it should as it looks like it's actually a miscible solution. How can you determine if something is soluble in another chemical?

 

[Rifle]

I believe this ratio would be a must. I'm very confused as to how OP was supposedly able to achieve much from a 500mg/3ml mixture.

I agree, but I've seen it mentioned by other before. Could be very sensitive or if OP takes monster hits like I've seen ecig users do I guess that would make it possible.

I'm also afraid that it won't wick well. But it should as it looks like it's actually a miscible solution. How can you determine if something is soluble in another chemical?

Not sure what you mean by its a miscible solution. Miscible refers to 2 liquids that will mix homogeneously. This in contrast to those that form layers, such as water and naphtha. As to how you know what is miscible/soluble with/in what, I think you just have to look it up. I believe he molecular interactions involved in such things are to numerous/complicated for there to be a general rule. However, there are probably some tendencies, like strongly non-polar and polar solutions to not want to mix, etc.

To deal with viscosity, the only thing I can think of is ethanol. It has very low viscosity and great DMT solubility. I think there will be issues w/ evaporation, and we might as well keep the ethanol content as low as possible, so I figure, just keep a dropper of ethanol available, and add drops into the tank before sessions as necessary to get it to an acceptable viscosity. It seems not everyone has easy access to ethanol though, so it would be helpful to find another candidate, especially one that wouldn't evaporate.

We could also work towards getting an ecig setup that can handle the more viscous fluid. The ecig forums definitely had some posts dedicated to that. If you have any VG on hand to compare the DMT solutions viscosity to, that would be helpful in that regard. There was a very easy tip (removing a flavor wick) for getting a Protank to work well with a 50/50 PG/VG juice so that could be a good starting point for viscosity comparison.

 

[Rifle]

(Discovery!)

I'd advise anyone looking to make a potent solution against going with PEG-400. Just discovered it's is over twice as viscous as PG. At 20 C is has 90 cSt as compared to PG's 40 cSt. Probably part of why I had wicking trouble with a DMT heavy solution.

EDIT: Well, maybe. ethanol is at 1.1 cSt for vsicosity but VG is at almost 1500! so a difference of 50 cSt as compared to the viscosities we're probably ending up near (50/50 PG/VG ~ 750 cSt?) might not be too significant.

Also, thought I had a lead on a way to lower viscosity: PEG stands for polyethylene glycol. ethylene glycol has a viscosity below 2, but it is the stuff in anti-freeze and slighty toxic when ingested. Don't know about inhaling it, but regardless it breaks down when exposed to air in about 10 days, and seems maybe too flammable, so probably not a good choice. Also, probably not readily available.

 

[anrchy]

Ethylene glycol is toxic. I have read accounts of diethylene glycol being found in peg and how it's very toxic. Anyways...

My questions about miscibility was this mixture I have. If it sat would it eventually become two separate layers. Propylene glycol is water soluble. Freebase dmt is not. So then what happens if I added water to the solution?

How would that effect the solution? My guess is it would mix with the PG. I dunno I need to increase my chemistry knowledge.

Rifle, v-ecigs.com sells usp grade bases at $5/250ml. They have aqueous glycerin, VG, and PG. I personally would rather not have to add any other chemicals to thin the liquid. Although it doesn't appear to have thickened up a whole lot.

When I get home I will be increasing the concentration to a 1:1 ratio. I did the math and that will bring it to 50mg dmt per metric drop of solution.

 

[anrchy]

Ok I started to lose count, and possibly my mind

Tue I added 125mg to 0.5ml

Wed I added 250mg and an extra 0.5ml

I believe on wed before I added the 250mg I had also added 125mg but forgot to notate it on this thread.

Then I added another 125mg which puts me at 625mg (not 650) and I am now going to attempt to add 375mg in with that. (currently doing that right now)

Just wanted to recap that since it started getting confusing for me and I need more organized documentation of my procedures.

 

[JesusBuiltMyHotRod]

Man, I was seriously considering tweaking an e-cig for this kind of stuff for a while now, but after reading these last few pages I think I'm just going to stick with putting good stuff in an actual cigarette.

Good stuff coming from all of you though, definitely going to keep with this thread just for the info enema I'm getting here.

 

[anrchy]

It's actually coming along pretty good really. I "think" this extra 375mg is going to dissolve by the time i wake up.

So right now, there is 1g DMT to 1ml propylene glycol. I compared the bottle with another one that has 1ml strictly PG and the one with DMT is close to double the volume.

Included a pic that I took after adding the rest.

 

[anrchy]

It Works!!

I only see one problem though. It Is Harsh. I only took one drag off it with much more lung capacity to go, and it was close to a 12mg dose. Now I could have easily held that in while taking another and stacking it. I think I could def breakthrough on this I was just a little chicken.

But it is harsh, so I have turned down the voltage and am going to contemplate this for a min. Might not be trying another today I dunno yet. BUT It does work. FOR SURE.

 

[DesykaLamgeenie]

Awesome!!

 

[Rifle]

My questions about miscibility was this mixture I have. If it sat would it eventually become two separate layers. Propylene glycol is water soluble. Freebase dmt is not. So then what happens if I added water to the solution?

How would that effect the solution? My guess is it would mix with the PG. I dunno I need to increase my chemistry knowledge.

I believe there is some nuance to the differences between the terms 'miscible' and 'soluble' that I don't have the knowledge to convey, but for all purposes I've encountered, they can be thought of like this: Solubility refers to a solid's, or semi-solid's ability to be dissolved in a liquid or homogeneous (uniform) mixture of liquids; miscible refers to the ability of two liquids to form a homogeneous (uniform) mixture when mixed (instead of layers). A PG/DMT mixture will never separate from just sitting there (w/out some other change occurring). If you were to add water to you current mixture you would see solids precipitate out because the solubility of DMT in the PG/water mixture would be much less than the straight PG mixture (and your mixture is nearly saturated). However, the PG and water would never separate into layers. If you ever try to clean anything this mixture has been in with water you will likely see a lot of white gunk stuck places due to the DMT becoming insoluble and getting left behind. So BTW, any ecig cleaning that needs to be done that has remnants of this mix in it will need to be done with some sort of alcohol.

 

[Rifle]

It Works!!

I only see one problem though. It Is Harsh. I only took one drag off it with much more lung capacity to go, and it was close to a 12mg dose. Now I could have easily held that in while taking another and stacking it. I think I could def breakthrough on this I was just a little chicken.

But it is harsh, so I have turned down the voltage and am going to contemplate this for a min. Might not be trying another today I dunno yet. BUT It does work. FOR SURE.

Fantastic! Easier than expected, I was planning for all these complications that never surfaced. And nobody ever gave PG enough credit for how much DMT it could dissolve with some patience.

After vaping this straight PEG, I was beginning to realize the harshness must have been from the DMT when I had it working. And I had vaped it on the lowest voltage I had, which means this might work better if we use a higher resistance heating coil. Unfortunately, I don't think they usually go much higher than my current 2.5 ohm coil. It may be possible to find a 3 ohm coil, I've seen them listed before, and is possible to rebuild coils and when doing so you could make it a much higher resistance if desired.

What atomizer/tank or cartomizer are you using?

 

[anrchy]

This last test was with the kanger evod tank. It's a bottom coil with short wick at 2.2ohm.

The previous attempts were using a stamped atomizer (suppose to be used in a tank) with 3 holes by smoktech or something.

Every time I increased the dmt content the harshness increased. Which is unfortunate and will most likely make it not a valuable alternative as a vaping device for dmt.

Unless thus harshness can be changed. Getting it all in one hit isn't an issue either, since you suck on it like you would a straw you can do this multiple times without exhaling your first hit. This would def, at this concentration, allow for breakthrough.

The other issue is that when I turned it down to 3v it wasn't vaping it enough. I don't think a higher resistance coil would work better. The harshness does not resemble burnt dmt at all.

 

[Rifle]

The other issue is that when I turned it down to 3v it wasn't vaping it enough. I don't think a higher resistance coil would work better. The harshness does not resemble burnt dmt at all.

Hmmm... strange, with only components being PG and DMT, it makes you wonder what the mechanism behind the harshness is. But I guess I would agree from my brief experience the harshness is different from a burnt DMT harshness, hence why I attributed it to the PEG-400. The only thing I can think of, and even this might be a bit of a stretch, is that it has to do with what they call a "dry hit". This occurs when the wick is a bit too dry for whatever reason and gets burnt a bit when taking a hit. I think it most often happens when people "chain vape" for too long and the juice doesn't have enough time to absorb back into the wick. The wick typically holds enough though that I don't really know how it could happen so quickly and while still allowing subsequent hits to be taken. You could test this out by taking a dry hit from an empty tank and comparing. Careful though, might take very little of a hit from a completely dry tank to get same effect.

In about a week I should be able to get back on the path to getting my a DMTcig that will consistently give the great performance I experienced that one night and seeing what I can figure out.