Video with DMT researcher Andrew Gallimore

[Jamie01]

I have had both experiences of non dual ego loss on psychedelics where all is one…as well as full on ego full experiences where I realized I have an eternal subjective soul and the cosmos it at least in part more like a gnostic science fiction. Iboga especially left me with quite a dualistic take on my own idea of spirituality.

So I just don’t know what to think about it if I am being honest. It’s something I talk about constantly being married to a fairly devout vedantist.

I think it presents the same paradox as anything else in this world, and therefore I assume there must be some higher level understanding of these concepts that don’t rely on the dichotomy.

I get that probly every mystic in history realized this already, but I dunno…it’s just weird to imagine one true base reality that doesn’t somehow contradict it’s own existence.

 

[Jamie01]

I meant *objective soul*

 

[Here&Now]

I have had both experiences of non dual ego loss on psychedelics where all is one…as well as full on ego full experiences where I realized I have an eternal subjective soul and the cosmos it at least in part more like a gnostic science fiction. Iboga especially left me with quite a dualistic take on my own idea of spirituality.

So I just don’t know what to think about it if I am being honest. It’s something I talk about constantly being married to a fairly devout vedantist.

I think it presents the same paradox as anything else in this world, and therefore I assume there must be some higher level understanding of these concepts that don’t rely on the dichotomy.

I get that probly every mystic in history realized this already, but I dunno…it’s just weird to imagine one true base reality that doesn’t somehow contradict it’s own existence.

Sure, that's fair enough. I imagine your attitude of openness is the more common view for most psychedelic users. Who's to say what exactly is correct? To those who aren't pinned down to any particular system of thought, people like your partner and I may come off as annoying. And I do try to avoid that when possible, so I won't keep probing.

 

[Jamie01]

It’s not annoying. Honestly I lean towards Buddhism a lot, I just don’t know where it fits entirely yet…and especially with something like 5-MeO-DMT people tend to think like oh that’s it! This is the top!…but is it?

What if it’s just bypassing a lot of very real and present spiritual forces and beings both light and dark that effect us?

I have had a ketamine trip where the light was just a machine to capture and reincarnate souls. It was like a spiritual fish farm. I dunno what to do with it all. Do I go down the rabbit hole if the false light lol? I dunno

 

[Username: Required]

I haven't watched it all yet, but this video looks like it covers many interesting aspects of the DMT experience. Andrew Gallimore is one of the neurobiologists involved with the extended-state DMT trials. @Jamie01, the video describes some entity stuff involving advanced technologies that I believe you've brought up before.

Currently reading his book Death by Astonishment, really enjoying it so far ch.4 I have Rogan to thank for introducing me to this world.

 

[Here&Now]

It’s not annoying. Honestly I lean towards Buddhism a lot, I just don’t know where it fits entirely yet…and especially with something like 5-MeO-DMT people tend to think like oh that’s it! This is the top!…but is it?

What if it’s just bypassing a lot of very real and present spiritual forces and beings both light and dark that effect us?

I have had a ketamine trip where the light was just a machine to capture and reincarnate souls. It was like a spiritual fish farm. I dunno what to do with it all. Do I go down the rabbit hole if the false light lol? I dunno

I'm one of those who thinks the breakthrough of 5-MeO-DMT is essentially the top (at least that I'm aware of) in the sense that it reveals everyone's identity as Consciousness with a capital C. But I think I differ from a lot of strict nondualists in that I believe a whole range of spirituality is not just real, but that it's also true.

To me, it's like when considering the components of a wooden chair. To start, it could obviously be said to be made of wood. But on a finer level, it's a concoction of fibers and chemical bonds. Finer still would be its atomic structure. At the most base level, it may just be part of an infinite and eternal energetic phenomenon that serves as the same building blocks for everything else.

Just because it's ultimately constructed from a uniform energy, that wouldn't disqualify the fact that it's truly an individual wooden chair. I believe both nondualism and dualism paradoxically exist at the same time. That just seems to be the nature of reality, which is pretty strange indeed.

 

[Voidmatrix]

How do we tell the difference between something about reality and a mere state change of that perceiving said reality?

One love

Hypothetically, what if 5-MEO-DMT and NN-DMT are both the "pinnacles" of reality, just on separate ends of the spectrum. Both being the pinnacle makes the spectrum flexible in that you could turn the ends towards one another to make a loop.

 

[Here&Now]

How do we tell the difference between something about reality and a mere state change of that perceiving said reality?

One love

Hypothetically, what if 5-MEO-DMT and NN-DMT are both the "pinnacles" of reality, just on separate ends of the spectrum. Both being the pinnacle makes the spectrum flexible in that you could turn the ends towards one another to make a loop.

That's basically how I think about the two. 5-MeO-DMT reliably reveals the nondual and DMT reveals the absurd depths and infinite variability of the dual. DMT is also able to occasionally give that nondual flavor as well, sometimes in part and sometimes in whole, but it's a lot more of a wild card in my experience with what it'll show you in any particular trip.

If I could only have two psychedelics, those are the ones I would choose. I think it's totally accurate to call the duo a pinnacle. I'd much rather have both in my possession than either or.

 

[Voidmatrix]

That's basically how I think about the two. 5-MeO-DMT reliably reveals the nondual and DMT reveals the absurd depths and infinite variability of the dual. DMT is also able to occasionally give that nondual flavor as well, sometimes in part and sometimes in whole, but it's a lot more of a wild card in my experience with what it'll show you in any particular trip.

If I could only have two psychedelics, those are the ones I would choose. I think it's totally accurate to call the duo a pinnacle. I'd much rather have both in my possession than either or.

I've been at a point, for a long long time, that oneness and duality, or, the nondual and dual, are intertwined such that it's a paradox, and to talk about one is to only talk about one side of one thing that is more than one thing.

One love

 

[Jamie01]

The thing is these experiences require brains/nervous systems as far as we know. So who’s mind is it that is staging the pinnacle of reality?

Are there other species out there?( I’m saying yes… specifically tall advanced beatles I call beatids, tall mantis beings…then there’s the human looking “nordics”…the blue bird people…if we assume some of this stuff we see is real)…so how advanced are the nervous systems of these creatures? Can they host a reality platform far beyond humans?

But that’s pretty materialistic. Maybe the breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT space is the same space of like ground zero spiritual oneness among all things across the cosmos. I think that’s possible.

It seems obvious to me that both duality and non duality must coexist. It just makes no sense to the mind.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The thing is these experiences require brains/nervous systems as far as we know. So who’s mind is it that is staging the pinnacle of reality?

Are there other species out there?( I’m saying yes… specifically tall advanced beatles I call beatids, tall mantis beings…then there’s the human looking “nordics”…the blue bird people…if we assume some of this stuff we see is real)…so how advanced are the nervous systems of these creatures? Can they host a reality platform far beyond humans?

But that’s pretty materialistic. Maybe the breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT space is the same space of like ground zero spiritual oneness among all things across the cosmos. I think that’s possible.

It seems obvious to me that both duality and non duality must coexist. It just makes no sense to the mind.

Trying to bring this discussion back around to the topic of the thread (), Gallimore seemed to try to head off some of these materialistic concerns in Alien Information Theory, where he would say that in the context of these medicines it's not so much about physicalism, but instead how a code interacts with another part of code, to kind of "move" through these somewhat virtual states. He boils it all down to the interaction of Information inside what he calls the grid which is part of but partioned from what he calls the Hypergrid.

One love

 

[Here&Now]

I've been at a point, for a long long time, that oneness and duality, or, the nondual and dual, are intertwined such that it's a paradox, and to talk about one is to only talk about one side of one thing that is more than one thing.

One love

This would be like the famous Shankara and Ramana Maharshi saying:

The world is an illusion
Brahman alone is real
The world is Brahman

Also the Zen saying:

Before I studied Zen, mountains were mountains, and waters were waters.
After studying Zen for a while, mountains are no longer mountains, and waters are no longer waters.
But now, after studying Zen even longer, mountains are just mountains, and waters are just waters.

Both succinctly represent the spiritual path, where dualism is at first recognized as primary, and then nondualism is realized, and finally the appropriate grasping of both completes the picture.

 

[Here&Now]

But that’s pretty materialistic. Maybe the breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT space is the same space of like ground zero spiritual oneness among all things across the cosmos. I think that’s possible.

I believe it's exactly this.

 

[Voidmatrix]

This would be like the famous Shankara and Ramana Maharshi saying:

The world is an illusion
Brahman alone is real
The world is Brahman

Also the Zen saying:

Before I studied Zen, mountains were mountains, and waters were waters.
After studying Zen for a while, mountains are no longer mountains, and waters are no longer waters.
But now, after studying Zen even longer, mountains are just mountains, and waters are just waters.

Both succinctly represent the spiritual path, where dualism is at first recognized as primary, and then nondualism is realized, and finally the appropriate grasping of both completes the picture.

My response is laughing at irony right now. Otherwise, I'm not sure what to say



One love

 

[northape]

I have had a ketamine trip where the light was just a machine to capture and reincarnate souls. It was like a spiritual fish farm. I dunno what to do with it all. Do I go down the rabbit hole if the false light lol? I dunno

In Bardo teachings from the Tibetan tradition, they say that you are presented with two lights in an after-death vision. One is gentle and inviting, while the other is fierce and blinding. Going into the gentle one would get you reborn, however, going into the scary, blinding one would get you liberated.

I've been at a point, for a long long time, that oneness and duality, or, the nondual and dual, are intertwined such that it's a paradox, and to talk about one is to only talk about one side of one thing that is more than one thing.

It reminded me of the Kuntuzangpo prayer from the other thread. It teaches that the difference between samsara and nirvana is the realization of your own nature. That's the only distinction between Buddhas and ordinary beings.

The world is an illusion
Brahman alone is real
The world is Brahman

Sri Ramana used to give that explanation as a working philosophy for people on the path. When devotees asked him about his true, direct experience, he used the ajata doctrine (non-creation):

There is no creation and no dissolution. There is no bondage, no one doing spiritual practices, no one seeking spiritual liberation, and no one who is liberated. One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of reality.

100. Although Guru Ramana taught various doctrines according to the level of understanding of those who came to Him, we heard from Him that ‘Ajata’ alone is truly His own experience. Know [this].
Sadhu Om: ‘Ajata’ is the knowledge that nothing – neither the world, soul nor God – ever comes into existence, and that ‘That Which Is’ ever exists as IT is.