Vitamin D

[joedirt]

Ok, so I know classifying vitamin D as a psychoactive is a bit of a stretch....but bare with me.

If you refer back to this POST I noted a dramatic increase in the duration and moderate increase in effect of mescaline after a very large dose of vitamin D. Based on this and other experiences with vitamin D boosting my mood considerably got me to thinking about a vitamin D / serotonin connection.

Turns out there very well could be according to this STUDY.

Basically Vitamin D increases brain serotonin concentration by activating the tryptophan hydroxylase gene (TPH2). It's actually a pretty cool mechanism with vitamin D binding to the the vitamin D receptors which then heterodimerizes and binds to a small piece of DNA called a vitamin D response element (VDRE)... where it assists in the transcription of proteins which place a hydroxyl group at the 5 position of tryptophan which is then decarboxylated to form serotonin. Basically Vitamin D increases your bodies concentration of 5-HTP which then goes on to increase your bodies concentration of serotonin. I have personally found vitamin D to be a pretty solid anti depressant / anti anxiolytic but please note I'm not overly anxious or depressed to begin with. But it certainly helps me beat the winter blues.

I do not take the recommended doses and I'm not recommending anyone try anything until they have done research and convinced themselves of the safety of this. I'm convinced that it's quite safe, and likely very beneficial, to take large doses of vitamin D on occasion, but I'm not an MD so please do your own due diligence.

Why is this interesting?

1) It could very well help with people pre/post loading after MD* experiences. Though I'm pretty sure pre loading with this will dramatically increase the duration of an MD* experience and likely make the after effects more pronounces as well. My gut instinct tells me it would actually be perfect to take a 100-150,000 IU's of vitamin D the morning after a roll...

2) It has helped me recovery more quickly from long nights...like a 20 hour mescaline experience. I literally missed an entire nights sleep. Was awake for close to 36 hours.. When I first woke up after finally sleeping the next night I felt horrible.. I took a solid dose of Vitamin D (30,000 IU, but I had previously taken 150,000 prior to taking the mescaline) and literally rebounded in a few hours time.

3) It has helped me get past a night of drinking without having a mid week rebound (Yes I do actually have mid week rebounds from alcohol)

Basically I think vitamin D can be a great drug to preload most psychedelics with. I have a feeling a high dose of rue/caapi and vitamin d together could in fact be psychedelic more so than just harmalas on their own. I have not tried this yet.

 

[۩]

Great find, joedirt! I don't really understand what you mean by a mid-week rebound, though. Is this where you get a hangover days later or something?

Even more reason to eat your mushrooms people!

 

[joedirt]

Great find, joedirt! I don't really understand what you mean by a mid-week rebound, though. Is this where you get a hangover days later or something?

Even more reason to eat your mushrooms people!

No t's not really like that really. The hangover is just like for everyone else. I just notice a considerable change in perception 2-4 day's after drinking alcohol with the effects typically peaking on the third day. These effects are pretty mild, but include a markedly reduced tolerance for stress, more agitation (though controllable). Basically just a moderate drug rebound from alcohol that is very consistent for me and I see it my wife as well though she typically runs her course a little faster than me with her peak depressed effects peaking on day 2.

Vitamin D complete obliterated this cycle for me... completely.

 

[۩]

Ok now I see what you are saying, thanks for elaborating.
That is incredibly useful and awesome that it works for this!
When did you take the Vitamin D to alleviate rebound from alcohol?

As someone who drinks on/off I will definitely try this next time I have a drink.

 

[joedirt]

I take it the day after I drink. I take 10,000 IU's after drinking with a b multi vitamin.

Like you I only drink occasionally...so I notice the rebound effects much more than when I was a daily drinker.. Though my general mood stability is far more stable as a part time drinker for sure.

Have you ever had your vitamin D levels checked?

 

[۩]

Good to know, thanks!
Last time I got a blood test Vitamin D was normal (but calcium was high). I try to eat as much mushrooms and fish as I can and spend a good amount of time in the sun. I definitely notice a rebound effect too so I will give it a shot. MDMA is really bad in this regard, I over did it last year, so I won't be using that stuff for a very long time!

Slightly off topic, but I get a euphoric effect from vitamin C at 500 - 1000mg.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Your experiments need peer-reviews, Joe. Ordered 1,000,000 IU

 

[Mitakuye Oyasin]

Supposedly vitamin K is important to take with D on a regular basis as they aid each other and the K helps balance out Calcium in the body and move it to the placed where it is needed and keep it from building up in areas where it is not.

 

[endlessness]

I´ve never supplemented with vitamin D since most of my life I´ve lived where there was enough sun, so I can´t comment on that...

BUT.. What I can say is that, coincidentally or not, some of my best trips have been when I have been exposed to the sun significantly just prior or during the experience.

Also, I was watching one podcast from joerogan with this biochemist woman who was explaining how usually tryptophan does not pass the blood brain barrier because other aminoacids are prefferentially transported instead, but after strong exercise, the muscles require those other amino acids and the BBB starts letting tryptophan across.

Again, some of the best trips I had have also been after I have made strenuous exercise before or during the trip. Of course there are also other potential factors (like the psychological satisfaction of having done exercise and feeling `satisfied with oneself etc), but I do think that there might be an important biochemical dimension too..

And lastly, UC mentioned in the other vitamin D thread but mushrooms produce vitamin D when exposed to the sun or UV-B lights. I´m not sure if psilocybe mushrooms also do that, I know other species do, but the fact is, (again coincidentally or not), that my best mushroom trips have been with mushrooms I harvested in the wild and that had been exposed to the sun. The cultivated shroom trips in general were not as good but then again, there are other important variables such as the fact that the place I used to pick them was perfect setting to trip, with nature and waterfalls around, so it`s hard to isolate variables.

I´ll experiment with pure vitamin D someday in any case, thanks for the info joe

 

[obliguhl]

Ok joedirt, it would be pretty easy to test your hypothesis. Just get some 5-htp and see if the effects are similiar.

I know that won't prove the Vitamin D --->Serotonin link but might add to the picture.

 

[joedirt]

Supposedly vitamin K is important to take with D on a regular basis as they aid each other and the K helps balance out Calcium in the body and move it to the placed where it is needed and keep it from building up in areas where it is not.

This is true if you are taking it on a very regular basis to help prevent hypercalcemia.

However let's take a brief side track and look at the toxicity of vitamin D. I want to note that I'm still pretty early in my research on this topic so again I want to caution others to do some due diligence if they explore this route.

This is a paper describing a man who developed hypercalcemia from to much vitamin D: Vitamin D Intoxication Associated with an Over-the-Counter Supplement

For the past two years, he had been taking a supplement that contained vitamin D3 ... The patient consumed one teaspoon (or 3 g) of powder daily, or 156,000 to 2,604,000 IU of vitamin D3 per day. This amount was 78 to 1302 times the recommended safe upper limit of 2000 IU per day.

On admission his serum levels were as follows: 25-hydroxyvitamin D, 487.3 ng per milliliter

So what are optimal vitamin D levels? Well this is still pretty debatable. For instance this paper: Optimal serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels for multiple health outcomes released in 2008 say's:

the most advantageous serum levels for 25(OH)D appeared to be at least 75 nmol/l (30 ng/ml) and for cancer prevention, desirable 25(OH)D levels are between 90-120 nmol/l (36-48 ng/ml).

While some doctors are recommending 50-70ng/ml as the optimal dose and at least one author I have read suggests maintaining it well over 100 is OK as long as vitmain K2 is supplemented. In fact this author makes a case for vitamin D not really being toxic at all if Vitamin K2 is taken with it. Please note that this author is not a scientist and this book is really just him talking about his experiences... But he did pretty long term experiments on himself and claims all sorts of things were cured/benefitted..

BTW If you start researching this you will see values reported in mmol/L and ng/ml. The conversion rate is 2.5 ng/ml = 1mmol/L So if you see it reported as mmol/L divide by 2.5 to get ng/ml

So what are the effects of single large doses? Here are two studies looking at single doses of 600,000 IU's.

Effect of a single oral dose of 600,000 IU of cholecalciferol on muscle strength: a study in young women shows no adverse effects...

This study:
Effect of a single 'megadose' intramuscular vitamin D (600,000 IU) injection on vitamin D concentrations and bone mineral density following biliopancreatic diversion surgery looks at 29 people undergoing a single intramuscular megadose of vitamin D. And the vitamin D concentration are reported for a few months out to see how blood concentrations were effected.

The patients had a mean baseline concentration (starting concentration) of 61.5nmol/L or 24.6ng/ml. After the single dose injection vitamin D levels were checked at intervals of

1.5 months: 92.4 nmol/L or 36.96ng/ml
3 months: 100.5nmol/L or 40.2ng/ml
6 months: 79.1 nmol/L or 39.55ng/ml
9 months: 73.3nmol/L or 29.32ng/ml
12 months: 73.4nmol/L or 29.36ng/ml


So in this case the average participant was moderately deficient and with a single large dose of 600,00 IU's they were still not in the upper optimal range. I think I'm siding with 50-70ng/ml as optimal blood range and I'm pretty certain it's OK to cross that range on occasion.

So from this data I have pretty well convinced myself that taking large doses like 150,000 IU's on occasion (say once a month or even probably once a week) is probably not only fine but likely very good for the majority of us. I would guess the frequency of doing this would also depend upon other factors like how much natural sun do you get? Or are you also taking a smaller daily supplemental dose?


Also it appears that people deficient in vitamin D can get to acceptable levels pretty quickly, but the dose response curve quickly increases.. meaning that it takes considerably more vitamin D to raise normal levels to optimal levels and absurd amounts ( >150,000 IU a day for two years) to get into serious toxicology trouble.. So my take on this is that it is probably a pretty safe supplement to take.


SO. last night I took MDA for the first time in gosh 10 years. (I know we don't talk about these substances here much, but bear with me this one time). This was a light dose (100mgs as it was the first time I had sampled this batch). Previously I had essentially preloaded with vitamin D a week or so before hand. I woke up this morning feeling pretty sluggish and a little hungover feeling, though I believe the amount of weed I smoked to get to sleep last night also played a part. in total I probably slept 5 hours or so last night.. certainly not a steller night of sleep!

I woke up this morning and took 30,000 IU of vitamin D and drank my normal cup of green tea. I feel not only fine, but actually fantastic. Seems to have kinda kicked the roll back in a little bit. What I"m curious about is how I feel in the next few day's. right now I"m guessing my preloading with vitamin D is making the experience a little bit longer.. I can def still feel lingering effects of the tab and it got stronger after adding vitamin D and green tea this morning...
I'm guessing my vitamin D supplementation will greatly reduce these side effects on the come down much like it does for me with alcohol and I will report back if I notice something different.

 

[joedirt]

Ok joedirt, it would be pretty easy to test your hypothesis. Just get some 5-htp and see if the effects are similiar.

I know that won't prove the Vitamin D --->Serotonin link but might add to the picture.

There is actually a good bit more to this picture.

Vitamin D receptors are found all over your body.
It appears to be a neuromodulator or neurosteroid with a host of functions and pathway's.

Vitamin D as an effective treatment approach for drug abuse and addiction

Vitamin D is a potent inducer of endogenous GDNF. The most prominent feature of GDNF is its ability to support the survival of dopaminergic neurons. GDNF is involved in the development of the dopaminergic pathways and regulates dopaminergic cell apoptosis in the substantia nigra in the immediate postnatal period

Vitamin D administration provides protection against the DA- and serotonin-depleting effects of methamphetamine in the brain of animals when neurotoxic doses of the drug are repeatedly administered

But I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg. Vitamin D is involved in various transcriptional activities pretty much all over your body. The paper I linked to with regards to autism shows vitamin D increases brain serotonin and decrease gut serotonin..

 

[joedirt]

I´ve never supplemented with vitamin D since most of my life I´ve lived where there was enough sun, so I can´t comment on that...

BUT.. What I can say is that, coincidentally or not, some of my best trips have been when I have been exposed to the sun significantly just prior or during the experience.

There is no doubt this has been true for me as well.

Also, I was watching one podcast from joerogan with this biochemist woman who was explaining how usually tryptophan does not pass the blood brain barrier because other aminoacids are prefferentially transported instead, but after strong exercise, the muscles require those other amino acids and the BBB starts letting tryptophan across.

I'm not surprised to hear this. exercise alway's makes me feel better and strenuous exercise like 90 minutes of Hot Yoga leaves me feeling quite euphoric into the next day even.

And lastly, UC mentioned in the other vitamin D thread but mushrooms produce vitamin D when exposed to the sun or UV-B lights. I´m not sure if psilocybe mushrooms also do that, I know other species do, but the fact is, (again coincidentally or not), that my best mushroom trips have been with mushrooms I harvested in the wild and that had been exposed to the sun. The cultivated shroom trips in general were not as good but then again, there are other important variables such as the fact that the place I used to pick them was perfect setting to trip, with nature and waterfalls around, so it`s hard to isolate variables.

You know what, as a teenager in the south eastern USA we alway's picked wild mushrooms as well and there is no doubt about it they were alway's a lot stronger than indoor grown mushrooms for me. This of course could be related to a variety of things... But who knows vitamin D levels could be higher in mushrooms as well.

 

[joedirt]

In fact I just want to add that if you ever experiment with MDM* compounds or Meth, cocaine or other dopamine related compounds then you REALLY owe it to yourself to read this paper. Though let's be clear protecting the dopamine and serotonin systems are probably a good thing after pretty much all drugs of abuse. I have to say diving into the vitamin D hole has been quite surprising to me. I don't by into miracle drugs really so much, but just teasing apart the biochemistry of neurohormoes is fascinating to me..

Vitamin D as an effective treatment approach for drug abuse and addiction

Peace

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Well, you got me with your Vit D posts, Joe, but let's play some devil's advocate. Because there's always the placebo effect...

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587%2813%2970165-7/fulltext

„Many prospective studies have shown associations between low 25(OH)D concentrations and a wide range of acute and chronic health disorders. However, an equally similar number of randomised trials have not confirmed that raising of 25(OH)D concentrations can modify the occurrence or clinical course of these disorders. Hence, associations between 25(OH)D and health disorders reported by investigators of observational studies are not causal. Low 25(OH)D could be the result of inflammatory processes involved in the occurrence and progression of disease. An exception would be slight gains in survival after the restoration of vitamin D deficits due to lifestyle changes induced by ageing and ill health.“

And for the MDMA users: look into THC, Alpha-lipoic acid & Vit C & E:

N. Aguirre, M. Barrionuevo, M. J. Ramírez, J. Del Río, B. Lasheras: Alpha-lipoic acid prevents 3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine (MDMA)-induced neurotoxicity. In: Neuroreport. Band 10, Nummer 17, November 1999, S. 3675–3680, ISSN 0959-4965. PMID 10619665.

M. Shankaran, B. K. Yamamoto, G. A. Gudelsky: Ascorbic acid prevents 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-induced hydroxyl radical formation and the behavioral and neurochemical consequences of the depletion of brain 5-HT. In: Synapse (New York, N.Y.). Band 40, Nummer 1, April 2001, S. 55–64, ISSN 0887-4476. doi:10.1002/1098-2396(200104)40:1<55::AID-SYN1026>3.0.CO;2-O. PMID 11170222.

Clara Touriño, Andreas Zimmer, Olga Valverde, Dawn N. Albertson: THC Prevents MDMA Neurotoxicity in Mice. In: PLoS ONE. 5, 2010, S. e9143, doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0009143.

K. C. Morley, K. M. Li, G. E. Hunt, P. E. Mallet, I. S. McGregor: Cannabinoids prevent the acute hyperthermia and partially protect against the 5-HT depleting effects of MDMA („Ecstasy“) in rats. In: Neuropharmacology. Band 46, Nummer 7, Juni 2004, S. 954–965, ISSN 0028-3908. doi:10.1016/j.neuropharm.2004.01.002. PMID 15081792.

 

[joedirt]

Well, you got me with your Vit D posts, Joe, but let's play some devil's advocate. Because there's always the placebo effect...

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587%2813%2970165-7/fulltext

„Many prospective studies have shown associations between low 25(OH)D concentrations and a wide range of acute and chronic health disorders. However, an equally similar number of randomised trials have not confirmed that raising of 25(OH)D concentrations can modify the occurrence or clinical course of these disorders. Hence, associations between 25(OH)D and health disorders reported by investigators of observational studies are not causal. Low 25(OH)D could be the result of inflammatory processes involved in the occurrence and progression of disease. An exception would be slight gains in survival after the restoration of vitamin D deficits due to lifestyle changes induced by ageing and ill health.“

I actually don't see this quote in the abstract of this paper... But from my own study thus far I certainly wouldn't say that an equally number of similar trials have not confirmed that raising concentration has no effect.. Besides that what effects are the specifically looking for? Vitamin D is involved in gene regulation in almost all cells of the body in a variety of way's. Some avenues of exploration underway are it's involvement in heart disease, cancer, chronic fatigue, potential depression, and even diabetes... So yeah I'm sure it isn't a miracle drug, but to pretend that a hormone involved in such a wide viariety of gene regulation pathway's would only illicit placebo effects seems a little naive to me... Though to be fair it is a possibility that should alway's be considered and I'm certain our roles would be reversed if it was your with the experience and me reading about it... I'd ask the same question and raise the same skepticism as you have.

Also about the placebo effect... I can't convince you because that is the nature of this, but I know my body really well. I alway's have an alcohol rebound effect, but not with Vitamin D. And mescaline has NEVER lasted 20 hours for me and yet the day I took 150,000 IU's of vitamin D I literally tripped for 20 straight hours on a dose that my wife went to bed on... She isn't a hard head and we are typically effected about the same...

And I have noticed increased energy and anxiolytic effects several times now.. I would concede that the anti anxiolytic effects could very well be placebo, but the energy levels are certainly not.

So, for me personally, I simply don't believe it's placebo...

And for the MDMA users: look into THC, Alpha-lipoic acid & Vit C & E:

N. Aguirre, M. Barrionuevo, M. J. Ramírez, J. Del Río, B. Lasheras: Alpha-lipoic acid prevents 3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine (MDMA)-induced neurotoxicity. In: Neuroreport. Band 10, Nummer 17, November 1999, S. 3675–3680, ISSN 0959-4965. PMID 10619665.

M. Shankaran, B. K. Yamamoto, G. A. Gudelsky: Ascorbic acid prevents 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-induced hydroxyl radical formation and the behavioral and neurochemical consequences of the depletion of brain 5-HT. In: Synapse (New York, N.Y.). Band 40, Nummer 1, April 2001, S. 55–64, ISSN 0887-4476. doi:10.1002/1098-2396(200104)40:1<55::AID-SYN1026>3.0.CO;2-O. PMID 11170222.

Clara Touriño, Andreas Zimmer, Olga Valverde, Dawn N. Albertson: THC Prevents MDMA Neurotoxicity in Mice. In: PLoS ONE. 5, 2010, S. e9143, doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0009143.

K. C. Morley, K. M. Li, G. E. Hunt, P. E. Mallet, I. S. McGregor: Cannabinoids prevent the acute hyperthermia and partially protect against the 5-HT depleting effects of MDMA („Ecstasy“) in rats. In: Neuropharmacology. Band 46, Nummer 7, Juni 2004, S. 954–965, ISSN 0028-3908. doi:10.1016/j.neuropharm.2004.01.002. PMID 15081792.

Also very good useful information, though I suspect that while THC provides neuroprotective effects it's also still reducing overall brain serotonin/dopamine levels and probably not likely to help substantially with mood in the coming day's (unless of course one stay's high on pot the whole time..) And vitamin C is a solid antioxidant, but certainly not a particularly strong one.. Green tea kick ascorbic acids ass in this department.. Fish oil I can certainly see helping as it, like vitamin D, is involved in all sorts of brain balancing functions. In fact eating fish is down right stimulating to me and this is probably the Omega 3's and vitamin D found in fish.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

It's from the conclusion, not from the abstract. I just wanted to say, that the odds in Vitamin D research are 50:50 and your findings may stem from the placebo effect.

However, I try to replicate your findings with VitD and 25I-NBOH when the time is right. No mescaline here, but as 25I-NBOH shares a similar structure I think it's suitable as well.

Thumbs up for green tea and EGCG, just say no to Alzheimers. :d

 

[۩]

Now I understand why sushi makes me feel so good.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Supposedly vitamin K is important to take with D on a regular basis as they aid each other and the K helps balance out Calcium in the body and move it to the placed where it is needed and keep it from building up in areas where it is not.

I found this:

Vitamin K2 activates a protein hormone called osteocalcin, produced by osteoblasts, which is needed to bind calcium into the matrix of your bone. Osteocalcin also appears to help prevent calcium from depositing into your arteries.

You can think of vitamin D as the gatekeeper, controlling who gets in, and vitamin K as the traffic cop, directing the traffic to where it needs to go.

Lots of traffic -- but no traffic cop -- means clogging, crowding, and chaos everywhere!

In other words, without the help of vitamin K2, the calcium that your vitamin D so effectively lets in might be working AGAINST you -- by building up your coronary arteries rather than your bones.

There is even evidence that the safety of vitamin D is dependent on vitamin K, and that vitamin D toxicity (although very rare with the D3 form) is actually caused by vitamin K2 deficiency.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/03/26/the-delicate-dance-between-vitamins-d-and-k.aspx

So it's probably a good idea to ingest some Vitamin K2 with Vitamin D megadoses. Green Kale has an awesome amount of Vitamin K1 (817 μg/100 g or RDI 680%) which will be converted into K2 by your body. I just ate 300g and it actually tasted awesome.

Vitamin K1 is heatstable and a nonpolar molecule, so it's a good idea to cook the kale for 10min with a tablespoon of vegetable oil for better absorption. I used sunflower & linseed oil. Added some veggie stock & Sriracha sauce, too. Yummy! But I read that green smoothies are an option, too.

A mercola.com article about Vitamin K - got an annoying pop up, but it's worthwhile reading it: Archived Article Notice

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Okay, took 140-160 drops á 1000 IU of VitD3 together with 300g green kale. Also took 425 mg of a St John's wort extract - not very psychoactive for me, so I expect a synergistic effect at the best. Let's see what happens.

Edit

+9h later: Nope, no effects here. Might work with mescaline or with a low VitD3 level, but not for me. For the record: I probably have a high VitD3 level, as I took ~5,000-10,000 IU of VitD3 daily the whole winter long and stopped 1 1/2 months ago.