What are your thoughts on nationalism?

[jamie]

I for one am not thankful for the police, the military, politicians or the big pharma corperations that pump so much funding into our medical system..nope, cant say I really appreciate any of that.

 

[unansweredquestions]

The state is a machine. As such, it (government and all that goes with it) often seems cold.

However, people are too quick to dismiss their nation's. Without them, we all wouldn't be sitting here discussing what we are, in the comfort of our own living space with a computor.

Yes...and imo, there would be a lot less suffering on this planet as well. We (privileged folks in industrial societies) are a small minority of the global populace. Why should we be thankful to the state that millions were/are denied basic human rights so that we can have comfortable living spaces, computers, etc?

Not thankful for the state because of the advantages we have (or disadvantages we help cause).
But even more simple than that. For example, a working police force. Sure, some people are corrupt, some laws we dont aggree with. But were relatively blessed in this respect.

I'm just going to say that we're going to have to agree to disagree, point to some facts and then bow out of this.

The US has 5% of the global population and 25% of the global prison population. The US "imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the height of apartheid." We have more people in jail than China...not per capita, but overall. This community lives in fear because of non-scientifically-based laws that have given the police an excuse to militarize to an insane degree and wage a war against us under all sorts of false pretexts.

Our police force in the US rose out of southern slave catcher gangs, the history is clearly established. Police do not protect you, that is not their purpose. Police are here to ensure that the apparati of the state and its benefactors (i.e., corporations and the socio-economic elite) function without interference from anyone. Please do not ask me to be thankful for the police. I find the idea abhorrent.

As to this:

Mind you, i disagree we (the west) are 'denying' millions of people basic human rights. Thats a strongly suggestive and misleading term for whats going on.

We are living on stolen land drenched with the blood of genocide and slavery, our resources are stolen at gunpoint, our way of living is killing the planet...the list goes on and on. You may find it suggestive...I find it to be true.

Some food for thought (copy the image links if the text is too small for your screen, the hosted images are significantly larger than they appear):

Just to clerify, im in Europe. I see where your coming from; thats a fault in the execution of the police though, at times. The ideal is fair and necessary.

At the end of the day, if my mother is home alone and someones trying to break into the house, police will come to her rescue. For that im thankful. If i crash my car, an ambulance will come and save lives. And they'l save my life with effective medicine,for example, a coagulant and not a herb that they believe may lower my blood pressure and possibly reduce blood flow.

Sure, theres corruption. Yes, we can pick out the bad from the good. In reality, without the police or these governments- we'd be back to fuedal times with war lords. No advancements in technology, no fair platform to debate philosophies or ideas, No education, nothing. This is the best we've come up with- we need improvement, but its not so bad.

 

[Vodsel]

I think things are getting a little mixed up here.

The thread topic is about nationalism, not about states. There are nation states, but essentially a nation (and nationalism) and a state (and statism) are different things.

 

[unansweredquestions]

For the record, when I say state I’m referring to a nation. Pride in your state and nationalism are very similar. I guess the only difference, to me, is in the degrees they suggest.

 

[obliguhl]

My thoughts:

Nationalism is the unanswered longing for community. A regression into a past long lost. Dangerous because it does not fit our culture anymore but without alternative to some who are seeking love in others. To respect themselves. To achieve their goals. Or at least to feels success.

 

[Vodsel]

For the record, when I say state I’m referring to a nation. Pride in your state and nationalism are very similar. I guess the only difference, to me, is in the degrees they suggest.

A nation is a community with a common bond, be it race, language, history, etc. A state is a political organization. They are often together, but you can have a firm belief that the state, the government as an institution, is a great thing to have - and at the same time have no pride at all for your nationality. And nationalism, which was the topic suggested, is a strong devotion for your nation.

I am european as well. And I know people here that are deeply ashamed of the past of their countries and nations, and at the same time agree with the principles of government.

A nationality can have a state or not. Just think of the example of the jews until 1948.

 

[Tek]

Personally, it has never made any sort of sense to me.

When I look at someone from another country I don't see an arab or african or asian or anything like that. I just see another person, an despite where they come from or what their country does we are still just all humans.

Perhaps I have the wrong idea about nationalism, but all I can think about whenever its brought up is the hell its put our species through. You get people so caught up in some sort of imaginary pride just because they live in a certain place and it can get so overblown that people are willing to strap bombs to their chests just to kill someone from a different background. I don't see how you can look at that as anything but a type of disease.

That all being said, nationalism just needs to be toned down a notch is all imo. Nothing wrong with being happy where you live and how your society behaves, however the error occurs when we start to believe our way is the true and right way and all other nations must behave like our nation does. This is how nationalism has been practiced and you can just turn on the evening news to see how much of a negative effect its had.

 

[Ice House]

Are you "proud" of your country?

Do you think that promoting national pride to kids is a good idea?

Would you go to war for your country?

Do you hate/love another country in particular?

I once was proud of the USA.

I am proud to be American.

I teach my children to be proud of some of what America has accomplished..

I teach them to question and be unsupportive of allot of what America does.

I have gone to war for my country on two different occasions. I am permanently wounded/disabled because of my combat service. I do not have any regrets.

I hate violence.

I hope to never have to fight again, I would serve in combat again depending on the enemy and the reason we are fighting.

I teach my kids to be proud of their family, school, sports teams, the state we live in.

I'll tell you what, I am a tribal person. I love my tribe, I stand by my tribe, I will defend my tribe, I will fight for my tribe, kill for my tribe, die for my tribe. I am proud of my tribe. Noting wrong with that.

I am proud of my tribe because we take care of each other.

I dont love or hate any other country. Countries are great or horrible because of their leadership. Thats not always a choice that the people make.

I love and accept all people unconditionally..

I would give anyone the shirt off of my back, but that doesnt mean I would want them in my tribe.:twisted:

 

[Purges]

I think Planetism will be the next 'Nationalism'... I am far more proud of my planet than my nation personally. Planetism doesn't exclude any one (from this planet :lol: ) and recognises that we all are, essentially the same. Who's up for joining my Planetist club?!

 

[Ritalin]

Hitler's sense of nationalism didn't do him well. I think the separation of nations had to happen for man to survive on this planet. Now that time is ending and the sense of a nation is not something I carry around. It's bullshit in my eyes I'm not an "American", I'm a Human Being from planet earth. I'd like to see boundaries fall.

 

[polytrip]

The state is a machine. As such, it (government and all that goes with it) often seems cold.

However, people are too quick to dismiss their nation's. Without them, we all wouldn't be sitting here discussing what we are, in the comfort of our own living space with a computor.

Yes...and imo, there would be a lot less suffering on this planet as well. We (privileged folks in industrial societies) are a small minority of the global populace. Why should we be thankful to the state that millions were/are denied basic human rights so that we can have comfortable living spaces, computers, etc?

Not thankful for the state because of the advantages we have (or disadvantages we help cause).
But even more simple than that. For example, a working police force. Sure, some people are corrupt, some laws we dont aggree with. But were relatively blessed in this respect.

I'm just going to say that we're going to have to agree to disagree, point to some facts and then bow out of this.

The US has 5% of the global population and 25% of the global prison population. The US "imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the height of apartheid." We have more people in jail than China...not per capita, but overall. This community lives in fear because of non-scientifically-based laws that have given the police an excuse to militarize to an insane degree and wage a war against us under all sorts of false pretexts.

Our police force in the US rose out of southern slave catcher gangs, the history is clearly established. Police do not protect you, that is not their purpose. Police are here to ensure that the apparati of the state and its benefactors (i.e., corporations and the socio-economic elite) function without interference from anyone. Please do not ask me to be thankful for the police. I find the idea abhorrent.

As to this:

Mind you, i disagree we (the west) are 'denying' millions of people basic human rights. Thats a strongly suggestive and misleading term for whats going on.

We are living on stolen land drenched with the blood of genocide and slavery, our resources are stolen at gunpoint, our way of living is killing the planet...the list goes on and on. You may find it suggestive...I find it to be true.

Some food for thought (copy the image links if the text is too small for your screen, the hosted images are significantly larger than they appear):

So you are against rules and rule-enforcement? You do realise that you are a moderator on this site yourself, do you?

 

[The Traveler]

...

So you are against rules and rule-enforcement? You do realise that you are a moderator on this site yourself, do you?

I think just looking at countries where there is no police are good examples of how that will work out.

Humans are corrupt by nature, it's in our competitive and survivalist instinct. If there is nothing to keep that in line then any anarchy will only work until one person (or group) is corrupted enough to abuse the anarchy, it will probably end with a dictatorship.

Here is a list of countries with no armies, it is interesting to notice that they all have a police force or something alike:
List of countries without armed forces


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[obliguhl]

I am proud of my tribe because we take care of each other.

Just that a nationstate is no tribe, it's a nationstate and therefore a very heterogenous group - by nature... held together by buerocracy and centralisation.

The nexus is more like a tribe, and it operates more or less on a big men system with one formalized chief though

 

[SnozzleBerry]

So you are against rules and rule-enforcement? You do realise that you are a moderator on this site yourself, do you?

First, I must ask...Do you really feel that likening my role as a moderator on this site to that of an armed police officer (backed by the most oppressive/destructive entity in existence: the state) is accurate?

Second...I never said anything about being against "rules" or "rule-enforcement"...there are rules (and enforcement) in every society (whether explicit or implicit), regardless of whether police exist within that society or not. Do you believe that non-industrial communities don't have social codes and constructs that are enforced? Do you think that police are the only apparatus through which people can be made to adhere to societal norms? If so, how did societies function before the existence of police forces?

One of my principles is that contradiction is the ruling principle of the universe, that every phenomenon, whether it’s in the physical world, the biological world, or the social world, has its internal contradiction that gives motion to things, that internal strain. Much of the time we Homo sapiens don’t realize that no matter what conditions we establish, no matter what government we establish, there will also be that internal contradiction that will have to be resolved-and resolved in a rational and just way.

 

[polytrip]

So you are against rules and rule-enforcement? You do realise that you are a moderator on this site yourself, do you?

First, I must ask...Do you really feel that likening my role as a moderator to that of an armed police officer (backed by the most oppressive/destructive entity in existence: the state) is accurate?

Second...I never said anything about being against "rules" or "rule-enforcement"...there are rules (and enforcement) in every society (whether explicit or implicit), regardless of whether police exist within that society or not. Do you believe that non-industrial communities don't have social codes and constructs that are enforced? Do you think that police are the only apparatus through which people can be made to adhere to societal norms? If so, how did societies function before the existence of police forces?

One of my principles is that contradiction is the ruling principle of the universe, that every phenomenon, whether it’s in the physical world, the biological world, or the social world, has its internal contradiction that gives motion to things, that internal strain. Much of the time we Homo sapiens don’t realize that no matter what conditions we establish, no matter what government we establish, there will also be that internal contradiction that will have to be resolved-and resolved in a rational and just way.

I was just joking, snozz.

I think that society´s always have had something of a police force. Some forms of policing are more effective or are of a higher moral order. For instance: in some primitive society´s, the police also functions as a judge or D.A. at the same time. It is obvious that this is a system that is even worse than the one we have currently: it means that you can forget about your right to a fair trial.

The aim of society should be, to offer as much protection to it´s citizens as possible, while at the same time enforcing as little restrictions as possible on those very same citizens....that is possible: it´s all about finding an equilibrium between 'freedom' and 'security', individual interests and collective interests. An equilibrium between 'your' rights and 'mine', in other words.

The economist Ernst Fehr, has done some research that showed that groups of people who cooperate, where 'free-riders' can be punished in some way for their defective behaviour, systematically do better in generating 'utility', wich stands for anything you can think of that has to do with collective goods: building dams and levee´s against floods, organising a good healthcare system, etc.

In other words: if the bankers on wall street would be punished whenever they steal money from hard working citizens, everybody ends up being richer.

This is the central problem: when a government is corrupt, people don´t have any faith in the government, so they are not willing to reform the government....because they don´t feel it is THEIR government in the first place....so the government stays corrupt.

It is clearly shown in various study´s (for instance by pogge and rothstein) that the higher the quality level of a government, the more people in society are willing to trust eachother. So when your government is corrupt, the corruption will in some way spill-over into society and enforce itself there, creating a Nash-equilibrium: Because i know that other people will be cheating anyway, i would be foolish not to cheat either; other people will assume i´m cheating anyway.

So having a good quality of government is vital, for having a good quality society. That´s even true on a tribal level. In african Xhosa culture, democratic councels have existed for centuries, for instance. Western imperialism has destroyed much of this democracy on a local level, leading to more crime and misery.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I was just joking, snozz.

Aha!

I understand now...for your insolence you shall be given a three-year vacation from the Nexus! You can take your tomfoolery to the humor mines of the shroomery and 4chan :twisted:

(sorry for not realizing your joke...flat text wreaks havoc on those of us who are socially awkward to begin with )

And, for clarity's sake, the above posters that use the term 'Democracy' are referring to democracy as practiced in the 'West' rather than direct democracy.

 

[Ice House]

I am proud of my tribe because we take care of each other.

Just that a nationstate is no tribe, it's a nationstate and therefore a very heterogenous group - by nature... held together by buerocracy and centralisation.

The nexus is more like a tribe, and it operates more or less on a big men system with one formalized chief though

obliguhl you dont know what you are talking about with that statement. What book did you read that in. Did that statement come from your moderator handbook? You have no idea how life is where I live and how I live. You definately know nothing about the tribe I belong to. The tribe I belong to may be located in a nation state, but that is the only association that it really has with America other than paying Taxes and most of us dont even do that.

The Nexus is no tribe. The Mods have made sure that it never will be a tribe. The Nexus a Tribe? BAAAAAA! What a fucking laugh! The Nexus is a wonderful website full of wonderful people, dont get me wrong. The Nexus is nothing more than a collection of information centrally located so people can visit and get the information they need to extract and use illegal drugs. Thats the bulk of it. Call it a University, I can go for that. Its getting there. A tribe? LOL

I would agree that the Nexus is a "Virtual Tribe". I'll buy that.

A few nexus members belong to the same tribe I belong to. Our tribe is not Virtual. Its a physical group, an association that regularly meets and celebrates and trades, barters, shares, farms. Our children know each other we help each other in times of need. We have people from all walks of life in our tribe. There are leaders and followers.

I have physically met over 20 Nexus members and I meet regularly with about a dozen nexus members that are regulars on this website. Most would laugh at the sugestion that our association isnt a tribe and that the Nexus is. I think I'll bring this topic up on the 4th of July when several of our fellow nexians are getting together to celebrate our tribal association. They will all get a great laugh out of that statement.

The Trav is the Chief of the Nexus no doubt, I have met him and I respect him and accept him as the leader of this virtual tribe. The only big men on this website are a few of the moderators. Most of us are just hear for the information and entertainment.

Some of us are actually out there doing it. Some of us are actually out ther living the life and practice what the Nexus teaches. Some just moderate. Thanks for that insight obliguhl. Very interesting.

 

[corpus callosum]

The only big men on this website are a few of the moderators.

^^Mummy, when I grow up I want to be one of the big men!!!"

Well, son, if you work hard at school............................:!:

 

[Ice House]

The only big men on this website are a few of the moderators.

^^Mummy, when I grow up I want to be one of the big men!!!"

Well, son, if you work hard at school............................:!:

LOL

corpus you know better than everyone that working hard at school guarantees you nothing but allot of debt and it damn sure doesnt qualify you to be a moderator.

Very nice post though!

 

[Korey]

Nationalism is a fool's pride.