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What comes after the breakthrough / Step 2
- Thread starter vovin
- Start date
I suggest we start stockpiling references, authors and artists, online books etc so the writer(s) and editors can touch on the ideas
For this project of yours it is true that someone, maybe an elder from the nexus, should be chosen to be the head of this project, to prevent the need for torch passing in such away. Torch passing has its merit of course, so I propose we all post what we personally know about in terms of "knowledge" and also what we have experienced as far as altering our perspectives - and a brief description of important key experiences or links to trip reports.
For this project of yours it is true that someone, maybe an elder from the nexus, should be chosen to be the head of this project, to prevent the need for torch passing in such away. Torch passing has its merit of course, so I propose we all post what we personally know about in terms of "knowledge" and also what we have experienced as far as altering our perspectives - and a brief description of important key experiences or links to trip reports.
Enki Nemo said:
This elder stuff and "no torch passing" is starting to sound a bit elitist. Everyone in these projects should carry equal weight (at least in potential). There's no need for glorifying "elders" and boosting egos. I think those that have experience will naturally find themselves in de facto leadership roles.
This whole user template thing also rubs me a bit the wrong way. I think once we come up with projects, it can be made clear what kind of project it is, and people can decide where it's appropriate for themselves to partake, and ultimately the group working on the specific project will collectively decide what is and isn't relevant to the project.
Global said:
I had this feeling too, but question is - is it really possible for everyone to decide whether it's appropriate for themselves to partake in or not? I'm thinking about eager or carefree people that might find themselves biting more than they can chew, without realizing until they have a full mouth.
Maybe it's not about restricting access to information, but thorough disclaimers (or a few simple mandatory readings) sound like a reasonable idea when someone is about make a significant step. Then it is of course up to every one to stop by and read further, or to go ahead. But if the whole point is to educate people so we can do things right as far as we know, some information management sounds reasonable.
Regarding people having equal weight inside of different specific projects, though, I agree with you.
The Traveler said:
I am very new here and have yet to...accumulate many experiences with DMT. But I have crossed over from begin a newbie in the shroom department to an intermediary user. But I feel strongly that we could do more. And I support this initiative even though as a newbie here I caary little weight, both in terms of experience and in terms of membership.
I feel that society and culture as we know it is not going to last all that much longer. We need paradigms about life and reality and how we go about our business on this mindbogglingly gorgeous planet.
I think we should do a framework thing, a timeline where we plot all the discoveries about these substances. Include the discovery of DMT, LSD, insert the research done. The point is to get an easy to use overview of our history. Where do we come from in terms of scientific research, what path has been traveled. When the DMT Nexus began.
How can we go forward and use these experiences to transform society. One day soon we will a wall with our culture. And people will despair. And look for answers. We should be ready to provide them with an alternative view on how to build society, how to integrate ourselves with nature. People will be needing guidance and some alternative view on culture and how not to make the same mistakes.
This timeline can be interactive. You click an event and get a popup or balloon window showing details.
This will provide a historical frame of mind, a reference point and the notion we aren't just hopelessly lost going nowhere.
We need to find common grounds. We need to categorize the various ways that people experience it. This requires a lot of polling and a scientific approach. But who can muster it up?
I have no idea how to set up a (semi) scientific approach. And I struggle too much with personal issues to be of any real use, like actually making an interactive timeline. I wish I could, but then I might not have come here in the first place.
Also, about a working structure. I suggest there is no hierarchical structure. Just work groups. It is a form of management not by authority but by equality.
Different projects will connect with others in a networked structure. Well, it is an idea.
Global said:
Yeah, I was hoping I wouldn't come of that way? But to rephrase "torch passing" as "sharing responsibility" will be wise here. I want to say that I am aware of a difference between elite and elitist, and am only trying to be elite. A simple google search will illuminate the difference between the two, I can't remember where I first read that.
Whatevers clever, I put my 2 cents in, just ask for more if needed, so that I don't have to say anything else on the matter again.
Let us not get drawn into semantics. People mean certain things and they don't go by the dictionary definition. It's one of those things where being technical and exact can cause a misunderstanding. What I am trying to explain here is that a man of noble intent heavily admired and followed by the populace can begin to allow himself to become corrupted by this influence.
What we have is a society of people most of who are capable of leading, seeking to find a manner in which they are not tempted but such a demon. We do not wish to compromise our own selves to take up this mantle. However; reality demands that someone leads and any leader put HIS OR HER personal views into what they do. It is the failing of mankind.
I absolutely hate gurus and spiritual leaders, seen far too many who I could easily see were frauds but weaker minds refused to accept that logic as they have placed their faith, their hope in these people. To assault them is to assault those peoples foundation of reality.
Still, there must be a chain of command. There must be someone who make the decisions or we fall into the mob mentality and chaos ensues. As mark twain once said' any man capable of getting elected, should by no means be allowed to serve'. the path to power itself corrupts.
I once existed in a community where they taught much, demanded even the newest of members teach as well. In 3 years you were banished, forbidden to speak to anyone in the order. Why? Because the goal was to prepare you to lead yourself, to be your own master. I, in all my days have never heard of such a thing. It endeared this movement to me, I trusted them because they knew the demon and denied it a long life.
The leader every 2 years was cast down, insulted and exposed, and made to perform a walk of shame where those of the order, by order of truth, must point out their inadequacies, their failings, and their egotistic actions. Laughed at and ridiculed they left the abbey in shame, forbidden to speak a word to any.
This is what we ask of those who would lead. A cruel treatment for the one who would show us of their wisdom. But in a imperfect realm of man it was necessary. Mad as it sounds you were expected to rebel, you were expected to stand up against the leaders and call them out. This was a order who worshiped the God Truth.
Not something easily taught to a regular person who is just taking their first steps, essential though it is. Those who came to us had lost faith in their traditional way, they were searching for something, anything to fill that void. At this time of desperation rationality is weak, hope failing, and desire all consuming. Even the sharpest of people will relinquish their will to latch onto something or someone.
Thus it is essential not only for the students but for the 'master' that this be fixed at some point, that their day of reckoning come to pass. After a period of 5 years then you were allowed to return, become a 'adept' and perform roles as a leader, it required great sacrifice to take on this status and if you became a leader in 2, as stated above, you were again banished. This time for life, you bore a mark so no other abbey would welcome you.
What we have is a society of people most of who are capable of leading, seeking to find a manner in which they are not tempted but such a demon. We do not wish to compromise our own selves to take up this mantle. However; reality demands that someone leads and any leader put HIS OR HER personal views into what they do. It is the failing of mankind.
I absolutely hate gurus and spiritual leaders, seen far too many who I could easily see were frauds but weaker minds refused to accept that logic as they have placed their faith, their hope in these people. To assault them is to assault those peoples foundation of reality.
Still, there must be a chain of command. There must be someone who make the decisions or we fall into the mob mentality and chaos ensues. As mark twain once said' any man capable of getting elected, should by no means be allowed to serve'. the path to power itself corrupts.
I once existed in a community where they taught much, demanded even the newest of members teach as well. In 3 years you were banished, forbidden to speak to anyone in the order. Why? Because the goal was to prepare you to lead yourself, to be your own master. I, in all my days have never heard of such a thing. It endeared this movement to me, I trusted them because they knew the demon and denied it a long life.
The leader every 2 years was cast down, insulted and exposed, and made to perform a walk of shame where those of the order, by order of truth, must point out their inadequacies, their failings, and their egotistic actions. Laughed at and ridiculed they left the abbey in shame, forbidden to speak a word to any.
This is what we ask of those who would lead. A cruel treatment for the one who would show us of their wisdom. But in a imperfect realm of man it was necessary. Mad as it sounds you were expected to rebel, you were expected to stand up against the leaders and call them out. This was a order who worshiped the God Truth.
Not something easily taught to a regular person who is just taking their first steps, essential though it is. Those who came to us had lost faith in their traditional way, they were searching for something, anything to fill that void. At this time of desperation rationality is weak, hope failing, and desire all consuming. Even the sharpest of people will relinquish their will to latch onto something or someone.
Thus it is essential not only for the students but for the 'master' that this be fixed at some point, that their day of reckoning come to pass. After a period of 5 years then you were allowed to return, become a 'adept' and perform roles as a leader, it required great sacrifice to take on this status and if you became a leader in 2, as stated above, you were again banished. This time for life, you bore a mark so no other abbey would welcome you.
vegantoker
Matt
My suggestion for stucture of this project, I guess, if I understand this current discussion corrrctly would be to:
To stucture it much like the Occupy movements have been doing.
Have one or maybe two people head up a subject. The Traveler and his appointees should decide how the project will be split up.
The group leaders, or "progress facilitators" whatever makes you happy, can then divide "their" portion of the project up into work groups made up of self selected people interested in that topic.
As first drafts from the work groups come back the group leaders could create a post allowing the community as a whole to comment and suggest changes. The work groups take it back do what they think needs to be done and then it goes back out to the community for a final vote.
Once we make it to this point in the process I figure the rest will pretty much take care of itself.
I think we have a much higher chance of working successfully under this model than OWS because of the respect that we have for each other in most cases here, and our singular focus on one large project.
Anyways just some stoned ideas, however this thing gets done is fine by me as long as it is in fact, done.
To stucture it much like the Occupy movements have been doing.
Have one or maybe two people head up a subject. The Traveler and his appointees should decide how the project will be split up.
The group leaders, or "progress facilitators" whatever makes you happy, can then divide "their" portion of the project up into work groups made up of self selected people interested in that topic.
As first drafts from the work groups come back the group leaders could create a post allowing the community as a whole to comment and suggest changes. The work groups take it back do what they think needs to be done and then it goes back out to the community for a final vote.
Once we make it to this point in the process I figure the rest will pretty much take care of itself.
I think we have a much higher chance of working successfully under this model than OWS because of the respect that we have for each other in most cases here, and our singular focus on one large project.
Anyways just some stoned ideas, however this thing gets done is fine by me as long as it is in fact, done.
vegantoker
Matt
Global said:
Yes, for sure. Unless I'm mistaken we don't really know exactly what we think needs to be covered or what form the information should take.
TimeCat said:
Bad timing, you see guys it is getting hard to monitor the nexus, we aren't a secret anymore, as a result we are getting a great deal of individuals who post some seriously dangerous things. Some of these new members are dangerous to the safety and well being of others. As a result our security out of necessity had had to be increased. The word is out and we see that there is something special here, we are taken far more seriously than other psychedelic cultures have been. The result is that we have a burden of responsibility to show the whole world that this isn't a cool new drug culture. This is one of those very rare chances to lend validity to our movement.
This is something beyond the individual, it's a new kind of way, outside the domain of so many traditional pathways. It is not a religion in and of itself but it is a first step, a initiation of sorts. Therefore we must maintain a certain level of decorum and that means blocking individuals that we may deem not ready. This isnt weed, this inst LSD, it's DMT as far as you can possibly go drug-wise. Your safety, and the safety of those who undertake this journey lies squarely on our shoulders.
Once the community get's to know you then they can take your statements into context, not something a person can do if you only have 20 posts, even with 1,000 we are often surprised by the drastic turn of a members mentality. It's a lot of work for those who have real lives and goals of their own. They cannot commit 100% of their existence into monitoring this forum and watching every single post. So there is a need to put in stopgap measures.
The moderators of the nexus realize the duality of their actions, it's not to make a community of cool guys versus the uncool. It is a decision on how our culture will be perceived, how the safety of all who come here will be maintained, how DMT can survive this revival and how it can contribute to the evolution of mankind.
If you have done good and haven't been promoted than say something sometimes we overlook things and we loose a few in the ocean of newcomers.
As far as working on an outline to make the process simpler for whoever is going to contribute, why don't we continue and use any obstacles to our advantage.
Whats stopping us from getting started with an outline? Let us illuminate these obstacles and transmute them into advantages. I do not grasp for water that will only drip from my hands. Just enough to get a drink from or fill my cup, this receptive water which takes what is given and sustains the life we are blessed with. Let us drink and fill our cups.
Whats stopping us from getting started with an outline? Let us illuminate these obstacles and transmute them into advantages. I do not grasp for water that will only drip from my hands. Just enough to get a drink from or fill my cup, this receptive water which takes what is given and sustains the life we are blessed with. Let us drink and fill our cups.
I hate leadership, fact is it is a demon that I cannot control. Let me tell you of a tale; when I was much younger long before DMT I worked for a short time installing power lines in Kentucky.There were 8 of us mostly 'hicks' from the mountains. These men were not bad men just ignorant of the world. They noticed a mark I bear and instantly considered me a devil worshiper. Through arrogance and my superiority complex I set forth one day to warp their perspective. I converted 7 southern baptists into wiccans in a single day through my skill in logic, my knowledge of the human mind and the ability to manipulate those who were not as skilled in such things.
My intentions were by no means noble. I am sure I caused them considerable troubles in later life from this action but I was annoyed, offended by their closed mindedness and in such a state of mind I manipulated them into a contradictory faith. Just to teach these simple folks a lesson, but it was not my place to do so. What I had done on that mountain was evil, I treated them as playthings to entertain myself and pleasure my ego by toying with their view on this world.
For those of us who have such charm and the minds to accomplish such undertakings it is so easily to become that which we oppose. Today's rebel becomes tomorrows tyrant, but still their must be a chain of command. If I were to undertake such things I would require that the people who seek my understanding be most forthcoming in their criticism. Something that in truth here would get you shunned, thus the dichotomy of this way. I never had a guru, never possessed one who would guide me, just fellow travelers. I was forced to find the way to which I hold by myself. It is not the only way but it is the only way I know. It is hard for me to lead when I don't believe in leaders.
My intentions were by no means noble. I am sure I caused them considerable troubles in later life from this action but I was annoyed, offended by their closed mindedness and in such a state of mind I manipulated them into a contradictory faith. Just to teach these simple folks a lesson, but it was not my place to do so. What I had done on that mountain was evil, I treated them as playthings to entertain myself and pleasure my ego by toying with their view on this world.
For those of us who have such charm and the minds to accomplish such undertakings it is so easily to become that which we oppose. Today's rebel becomes tomorrows tyrant, but still their must be a chain of command. If I were to undertake such things I would require that the people who seek my understanding be most forthcoming in their criticism. Something that in truth here would get you shunned, thus the dichotomy of this way. I never had a guru, never possessed one who would guide me, just fellow travelers. I was forced to find the way to which I hold by myself. It is not the only way but it is the only way I know. It is hard for me to lead when I don't believe in leaders.
I think we both know that someone who wants to be in charge is often the wrong person. You have obviously demonstrated that you know of the pitfalls such as becoming a tyrant. Don't think of this as such a big deal than, its only an impersonal responsibility to facilitate guidance. The role I nominate you for Vovin, is not writer of the perspective people should take (thats a contradictory supernal matter), but to "spearhead" progress in the movement you are beginning to articulate. These responsibilities would include outlining a sort of curriculum which supports a primary objective, and running it by the people, not "at the top" per say, but who have a role in this project which by my understanding is something of a personification of the greater mind of the nexus in each of the newcomers willing to learn.
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