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What do we do? ~ "Hiding in the Shadows"

Migrated topic.
magic clown said:
Yesterday evening I was rambling angry and drunk. Earlier I had had an unpleasant encounter with a police man that left me angry and I downed a few beers to cheer my self. Later I recieved a phone call from an ex lover. The memory of her still hurts me. Angry and upset and late at night, I start rantting about my anger and frustrations with prohibition and our subserviance to the DEA and its cronnies in the UK. I have no solutions to offer our predicament and apologise to any who were offended or annoyed by my posts.

I do totally live my life out there for all to see. I make few conssesions to other peoples sensitivities. I am frequently in conflict with the law and those who would proscribe my activities. I do get frustrated by others subserviance, hidding the things they feel are important to them from plain view. I do set my self up as n martyr to our cause and wonder what would happen if all the millions through out the world followed my example and stuck their finger up and said "No I refuse to hide any longer". A million people smoke Mary Jane in the UK. I wnet to prison for saying I liked it and nothing this court could do would deter me from doing so in the future. If a million people all did that, things would have to change or governments would fall.

Right now, I am engaged in further protests, this time of an enviromental nature. Two days before Christmas I stood in front a magistrates court and told them I made absolutely no apology for my behaviour. I assured the court that I was determined to continue with my protest and there was nothing they could do to force me to change my attitude. I expected to spend Christmas in prison. As it happened, I think they had a certain ammount of respect and sympathy with my position and defiant stance. I kept my freedom,for now.

My point is I don't hide who and what I am. I also know most people do. I do not expect people to follow my path but I know if they did we would change the world
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This is fine for you. I am glad however there are other ways to go about this much more logical than spending christmas in jail. I agree it is bullshit but the jails in the US aren't like those in the UK man. The media isn't on our side, we have to slowly change the publics view through science, music, art, film,... getting arrested is not the only way to do things. Although I am glad you live your life as you do, and you are not ashamed of it neither am I. However some of us have to hide some of our views/behaviors so that we can get to powerful respected positions and then speak out. Is this stupid? If you have a PHD for some reason people are more likely to listen. We have to do this thing carefully check out MAPS.
 
You can't tell me that being absolutely candid about drug-use isn't simply doing a favor for the opposing side of the drug-war. You can't tell me that they wouldn't like any excuse to imprison as many users as possible. You can't tell me that you're some sort of a hero for practicing (or advocating at least) slightly less discretion, even though your certainly not willing to go right into a police station and preach about entheogens. What's needed is intelligent resolve not blind-courage.

I've been told that some protestors wear masks because they are cowards, but I know the real reasons: They wear them to hide from police cameras and they wear them to protect themselves against pepper spray and CS gas. If they were spotted on a police camera, many of them could face hefty jail-time due to prior involvement with violently instigated protests--which in turn, takes them out of the game altogether. I'm not one condemn a good street-fight, but they're hardly worth fighting unless the protestors actually intend to win; and that never happens.
 
Wow! Great posts everybody...

I won't say much, I'll just let it keep rolling...

I will say this tho...

I've been told that some protestors wear masks because they are cowards
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Who cares if they wear masks if they are out protesting! I'm not saying reavel who you are, hell no! I'm saying we have to take action... what I meant by "hiding in the shadows" was that we can't just wish this thing would go away... we have to stand up for our rights!

That may be writing a letter.

Teaching a friend how to cook with spice.

Donating to organizations that support entheogenic research or ethnobotanical preservation.

Grow, propagate and speard entheogenic botanicals!

...

Ok... well I guess I said a little bit... :)
 
I personally believe this has to be a silent social movement. Thrusting entheogens onto the national stage would just let the politicians know what substances to ban. Then there goes all our little website and crap where we order P. Viridis, H.B. rosewood, MHRB, and everything else. Before you know it Xylene and naptha are on watch list. When you give the government more targets, they just get more bullets, guns and money. Shoot, salvia is already under a careful watch. But that's a victory in itself, it's being watched. They didn't shoot it through congress to get it auto-banned. They said, "Lets see if this stuff is dangerous at all, then we'll make a decision." Not, "Hey salvia gets you fucked up so lets ban it."

Plus, we have one up on alot of other drugs. Ours are not violently addictive and extremely harmful to your mind and body like speed, coke, or heroin.
 
As soon as we start calling our own kind cowards, the constructive road we were walking on starts to divide into separate lanes, it's not very helpful in my opinion.

Some people have VERY good reasons to stay in the shadows and some should even stay there to prevent damaging our cause, their propaganda will backfire one day.

It's the same reason why governments keep losing "the war on drugs", they are way too divided to talk as one and their propaganda is backfiring since all too often it inspires people to use drugs since it's "cool" and "against the law".


These days, the "druggies" have found new roads to change the mind of the public in favor of entheogens: the scientific road! Let them walk this road and stop hindering them by shouting moronic things like "drugs are okay and our (religious) right". You ain't fooling anyone and Joe Regular, with the largest vote in his pocket, will still think you act that stupid because of the drugs.
 
VisualDistortion said:
I personally believe this has to be a silent social movement. Thrusting entheogens onto the national stage would just let the politicians know what substances to ban. Then there goes all our little website and crap where we order P. Viridis, H.B. rosewood, MHRB, and everything else. Before you know it Xylene and naptha are on watch list. When you give the government more targets, they just get more bullets, guns and money. Shoot, salvia is already under a careful watch. But that's a victory in itself, it's being watched. They didn't shoot it through congress to get it auto-banned. They said, "Lets see if this stuff is dangerous at all, then we'll make a decision." Not, "Hey salvia gets you fucked up so lets ban it."

Plus, we have one up on alot of other drugs. Ours are not violently addictive and extremely harmful to your mind and body like speed, coke, or heroin.
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Pure heroin is not bad for your body at all. The dangers of most of these "hard" drugs result form the adulterants that are used to cut it. This occurs because of prohibition. During Alc prohibition people went blind because the bootleggers were cutting the ethanol with methanol. Thus prohibition creates health effects and dangers that are not inherent to the drugs themselves. All drugs need to be regulated in the same way as alcohol. This is the only way to effectively control, price, purity, and availability. One of the prohibitions big cards is heroin, they have everyone terrified and think the war is just because everyone would become a heroin addict and steal and overdose if it were legal. This is complete and utter BS. WHen heroin was legal just as many people (% of population) did it as today yet the overdose rate and the crime associated with its use were none existence. Hum so what is the only other factor here that could be causing the problems? Oh yea prohibition.
 
The DEA is concerned with one thing chemical euphoria. They think it is immoral, maybe because they make billions of dollars believing so. This is a huge industry. But I will tell you what immoral making drugs use more dangerous than it is naturally, creating crime, putting innocent people in jail, lying to the public, making drugs easier to get for kids (its easier to get illegal drugs for most kids than alcohol), and stealing billions of dollars in the process.

When history looks back on prohibition, the people who supported and were a part of it will look like what they are lying filthy scum bags. Prohibition is going down there is no way it can possibly continue ir is a huge embarrasment but they aren't gonna give up as long as were paying them.

We just need to show everyone the absurdity of it all, and tell them that we are saying drug use isn't dangerous (because it certainly can be) but prohibition only makes that matter 100 times worse and creates crime like we've never seen before Regulation is a much safer moral and effective way to deal with this issue. Regulation not legalization it sounds nicer.
 
[quote='Coatl]
Pure heroin is not bad for your body at all
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I just don't believe that. I'm sorry.
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Well you are wrong. Why don't you believe it because of DARE class? Tell me negative health effect from using medical grade heroin? There are a few minor ones like constipation however the effects are no worse then coffee. The dangers arise from prohibition, almost no one OD's from heroin it is usually what it is cut with like fentanyl or some other drug.

Opiates have been used safely for thousands of years. Heroin is a very safe drug if clean and used correctly (with clean needles and sterile techniques of course which it was pre-prohibition also if high purity you can snort it instead of IVing it. ) Heroin was used by many people B4 prohibition who lived very productive lives and lived to be very old.

Aside form overdose which results from not knowing the proper dose, it is safe. Many drugs are addictive so what so is coffee its an adults choice. It someone wants help or needs it we should give it to them. Don't get more wrong heroin as it is now is very dangerous and destructive I have seen it take severeal freinds but again if it wasn't for prohibition they would still be alive as they would have been aware of what they were taking and how much was in it.

See a major problem is everyone believes this crap even people in our community who should know better. The DEA has everyone convinced that these HARD drugs are the devil. When they are not some are safer but most are just as bad as legal substances. Even if there are health effects prohibition just acts to make them worse much worse and as we can't regulate them and thus we can't control and minimize the health effects. Plus companies could develop safer analogues with no negative side effects.
 
bufoman said:
[quote='Coatl]
Pure heroin is not bad for your body at all
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I just don't believe that. I'm sorry.
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Well you are wrong. Why don't you believe it because of DARE class? Tell me negative health effect from using medical grade heroin? There are a few minor ones like constipation however the effects are no worse then coffee. The dangers arise from prohibition, almost no one OD's from heroin it is usually what it is cut with like fentanyl or some other drug. Opiates have been used safely for thousands of years. Heroin is a very safe drug if clean and used correctly (with clean needles and sterile techniques of course which it was pre-prohibition also if high purity you can snort it instead of IVing it. ) Heroin was used by many people B4 prohibition who lived very productive lives and lived to be very old. Aside form overdose which results from not knowing the proper dose, it is safe. Many drugs are addictive so what so is coffee its an adults choice. It someone wants help or needs it we should give it to them. Don't get more wrong heroin as it is now is very dangerous and destructive I have seen it take severeal freinds but again if it wasn't for prohibition they would still be alive as they would have been aware of what they were taking and how much was in it.
See a major problem is everyone believes this crap even people in our community who should know better. The DEA has everyone convinced that these HARD drugs are the devil. When they are not some are safer but most are just as bad as legal substances. Even if there are health effects prohibition just acts to make them worse much worse and as we can't regulate them and thus we can't control and minimize the health effects. Plus companies could develop safer analogues with no negative side effects. [/quote]

I work everyday to dispell myths about drugs from peoples minds. I am always searching for the correct answer and information. Maybe your right, maybe heroin is a safe drug. Maybe I've got bits and pieces of propaganda clinging onto my mind. But are we gonna compare coffee addictions to heroin addictions? I am a daily coffee drinking but i have gone months or weeks at a time without more annoyance than being groggy in the morning. But when your addicted to a hard drug, which i have been, you feel like your gonna die if you've gone with out it for 6 hours. Some people have come close to dying or have died from withdrawls. Some people just don't get addicted to things but alot do. Health concerns aren't the only things to be looked at when considering the legality of a drug. Addiction is another major concern.
 
Also do you have a link to your resource for the health affects of heroin. I wanna know how that was put together. Did they administer pure heroin to 10 people for three months, heroin cut with fentanyl to 10 people for three months, and some other dirty heroin to 10 people for three months to judge its health affects? what about long term affects? I'm sure the stuff we do can have bad effects over the longterm. It can definately have horrible short term effects like the violent purge that yopo causes. But i'd just general feel better about using mushrooms over extended periods of time than heroin. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe it's healthier to jam a clean needle with pure heroin into your arm than eat mushies or drop acid.
 
Look at history man. Look at the statistics. Look at the medical literature at the usage of pure opiates. Look at what are the reported dangers of heroin use, they all result form prohibition in one way or another. Most are from impure or contaminated samples, additives, or unsterile IV techniques. Overdose, spread of disease... There are minimal negative effects from medical grade heroin which is used medically in many places around the world still to this day.

No one has ever died from a heroin withdraw, you are talking about alcohol and barbiturates. Heroin withdraw is portrayed in films to be something it is not, it is mostly a mental thing although intense there are no health dangers.

Look at the studies done showing that heroin use is bad they are all form prohibition and most performed in a prison or rehab. Do you go to the hospital to study the negative effects of coffee? I am not saying addiction is not a problem but it is really confounded by prohibition.

If it was legal what would be the big deal, it would be like nicotine addiction (rather than caffeine maybe). You need to do it but if its not bad for your health (nicotine is because of tobacco) then who cares. If it won't effect your productivity and social life then who cares. We are all adults its our life. Look at the data before prohibition most house wives were heroin addicts and raised there children with no problems and lived very long lives. They weren't injecting it they took it orally and it didn't interfere with their lives.
You don't necessarily have to inject heroin. It can be used orally, sub lingually, or nasally if it is of a high purity. IV use was also made more common because of prohibition. Prohibition has made a monster out of something that isn't itself. Check out Jonathan Ott's pharmacotheon. Also "A history of Drug use".
 
There is also a lot of people (many) on medical opiates who take these for pain there entire lives. These people do not have long term negative effects, and live normal productive lives. Prohibition is BS people it has made these drugs dangerous. They were not nearly as dangerous before prohibition.
 
Here is what NIDA has to say about heroin adverse effects. Notice all are a result of prohibition:

Heroin abuse is associated with serious health conditions, including fatal overdose, spontaneous abortion, and—particularly in users who inject the drug—infectious diseases, including HIV/AIDS and hepatitis. Chronic users may develop collapsed veins, infection of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, and liver or kidney disease. Pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia, may result from the poor health of the abuser, as well as from heroin’s depressing effects on respiration. In addition to the effects of the drug itself, street heroin often contains toxic contaminants or additives that can clog the blood vessels leading to the lungs, liver, kidneys, or brain, causing permanent damage to vital organs.

Although heroin withdrawal is considered less dangerous than alcohol or barbiturate withdrawal, sudden withdrawal by heavily dependent users who are in poor health is occasionally fatal.

So I take back what I said maybe if you are in very poor health and using very heavy doses you could die although I would like to see where this was reported. Most people however exhibit minimal physical effects aside from goose bumps and aches. Also don't use heroin while you are pregnant, unless you want an abortion again though how are all these HEROIN babies we hear about in the news being born than?
 
You do make a good point about people who are under constant opiate medication. I've known a few. In fact that is how I had my first encounter with drug abuse.

Well I can't deny that I'm probably misinformed or under-educated on some things, or even alot of things. You are a worthy adversary of debate though. If your not a lawyer you should've been.

And I know heroin can be taken orally, sub-lingually and what not. But I say, "JAM A NEEDLE IN YOUR ARM!" Mostly because it states my case in the most effective way. I guess should be a government spokes person one day.
 
Tell me negative health effect from using medical grade heroin?
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If you give them too much... they will die. I'm done with this part of the discussion. Sorry.

However, I will say that I totally agree with your ideas on prohabition. I just don't think heroin is safe dude. Nor would I like to see more people doing it.
 
HAHAAH exactly. A lot of people told me growing up I should be a lawyer. I almost did, I still may one day, but I love science too much.

Most people are misinformed about heroin, this is why I said it. The one thing that the DRUG WAR is effective at is convincing people that heroin is the devil. Most people hear "HEROIN" and immediately think of the most evil viale substance. The devil in powder form. The top of top the hardest of the hard... theres no turing back. And while the things NIDA says are true they are not a result of any property of heroin itself, each and everyone is a direct result of prohibition (aside form abortion which who knows?) . This is scary because if people believe it is from the drug then they will support prohibition (most people anyway, and of heroin at least) not realizing all along that prohibition itself is the cause of the dangers. PROHIBITION KILLS.

I just want people to be informed and inform others, once they realize this prohibition is doomed, because it doesn't do a single thing right, not only is it ineffective it is responsible for the very things it claims to be trying to fight. It has deteriorated public health and safety and wasted billions in the process. But once people are shown the truth about heroin the other drugs will be obvious and easier to handle.

A major part of this is telling people the truth exposing the lies every single last one of them. No one is saying there are no dangers at all but the dangers are only increased by prohibition and new ones are created. Regulation is the only way to effective deal with this issue.
 
[quote='Coatl]
Tell me negative health effect from using medical grade heroin?
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If you give them too much... they will die. I'm done with this part of the discussion. Sorry.

However, I will say that I totally agree with your ideas on prohabition. I just don't think heroin is safe dude. Nor would I like to see more people doing it.

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There is no reason to believe more people would do it. There are the same % of heroin addicts today as there were when it was legal. Also only about 10% of people who try heroin continue to use it, most don't like it. Another myth that it feels so good, better than sex, it feels just like percocets or vicodine. Yea its good but it doesn't fuck you up like alcohol or even pot, unless you do a bunch and mix it with other drugs. it just makes you feel content. Some people like this others do not. Just like with any drug some like cocaine others can't stand it. Most people can control themselves only a small percentage of users of any drug abuse it.

If you give them to much... Too much of anything will kill you come on man you know that. But do you know why people overdose? It is not because they want to see how high they can get today. it is because they take there normal dose ( say 3 bags) but today the dealer made it extra potent or its cut with fentynal. Well since the ingredients or the dosage isn't listed on the side of the packet, you do your normal dose and OD because it was not your normal dose.

Accidental heroin overdose was virtually none existent before prohibition (it was very rare). i know it seem ridiculous because the drug war has everyone convinced but it is not dangerous it can be used safely and it was used safely for many years prior to prohibition once prohibition came along so did the dangers. They created the monster.

Your spreading DRUG WAR propaganda without even knowing it man. They have imprinted this BS on everyone from a young age. I'm not saying everyone should do heroin and that it is great. But it has minimal health effects and if regulated can be used safely. Heroin can be used safely with no negative effects aside from addiction (which is a moral opinion).
 
If you give them to much... Too much of anything will kill you come on man you know that.
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Attempt to kill somebody with San Pedro cactus... I bet you can't do it.
 
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