What do we do? ~ "Hiding in the Shadows"

[burnt]

If you don't overdose on heroin you can take it for years and years and years and years and be 100% fine. As long as you eat right and maintain healthy living habits otherwise. This goes for many drugs even things like meth (but that depends on the dose used!), high doses all the time are bad but very low doses are fine.

There are compounds in cacti that kill humans don't forget mescaline has an LD50. Granted its high still it and other alkaloids in cacti can kill you.

 

[Infundibulum]

---and as I have once in the past said, one can always get killed if battered with a san pedro cactus for a sufficiently long time.

There's vast anthropological data suggesting that Hercules' club was a big San Perdo.

 

[bufoman]

[quote='Coatl]

If you give them to much... Too much of anything will kill you come on man you know that.

Attempt to kill somebody with San Pedro cactus... I bet you can't do it.
[/quote]

Mescaline has a low LD 50. Rats = 132mg/kg it is higher in rats around 200mg/kg. The therapeutic index is lower than many other hallucinogens. It would definitely kill you if you took enough. It may be a lot of cactus to eat depending on the potency but it can kill you. You can die from drinking too much water, or even too much salt. The difference between a drug and poison is the dosage. This is true with most things. Many things we consider poisons are used safely medically at lower doses.

 

[whiterasta]

[quote='Coatl]

If you give them to much... Too much of anything will kill you come on man you know that.

Attempt to kill somebody with San Pedro cactus... I bet you can't do it.
[/quote]

You have said yourself there is cactus active in tblspn amounts, it seems to me that overdosing is not out of the question with such strong material. Also a tricho with high candicine content could at high dosage cause some possibly fatal reactions.
I have imbibed 1.5gallons of san pedro juice of a known strength. this amount of a couple of my plants would dose you at a bit over 2g mescaline along with other alkaloids. this dose in a smaller person could be possibly fatal and definitely a severe overdose.Never underestimate the capacity of people to go too far:wink:
peace:!:
WR

 

[Aegle]

Yesterday evening I was rambling angry and drunk. Earlier I had had an unpleasant encounter with a police man that left me angry and I downed a few beers to cheer my self. Later I recieved a phone call from an ex lover. The memory of her still hurts me. Angry and upset and late at night, I start rantting about my anger and frustrations with prohibition and our subserviance to the DEA and its cronnies in the UK. I have no solutions to offer our predicament and apologise to any who were offended or annoyed by my posts.

I do totally live my life out there for all to see. I make few conssesions to other peoples sensitivities. I am frequently in conflict with the law and those who would proscribe my activities. I do get frustrated by others subserviance, hidding the things they feel are important to them from plain view. I do set my self up as n martyr to our cause and wonder what would happen if all the millions through out the world followed my example and stuck their finger up and said "No I refuse to hide any longer". A million people smoke Mary Jane in the UK. I wnet to prison for saying I liked it and nothing this court could do would deter me from doing so in the future. If a million people all did that, things would have to change or governments would fall.

Right now, I am engaged in further protests, this time of an enviromental nature. Two days before Christmas I stood in front a magistrates court and told them I made absolutely no apology for my behaviour. I assured the court that I was determined to continue with my protest and there was nothing they could do to force me to change my attitude. I expected to spend Christmas in prison. As it happened, I think they had a certain ammount of respect and sympathy with my position and defiant stance. I kept my freedom,for now.

My point is I don't hide who and what I am. I also know most people do. I do not expect people to follow my path but I know if they did we would change the world

I'm also very active in environmental protests, i recently did one against Engen the petroleum company in my country which is polluting our air in the most barbaric way, children and people in the area are suffering from serious lung conditions in in the name of money and short cuts. Protest is vital but it needs to be done passively if not than the whole meaning of protest is eroded by violence. There are some extreme animal rights activist who go and raid the labs in which animals are being tested on and literally they devise a reconnaissance mission and break the animals out. Sometimes force is needed but not in a violent way. I think if the enthogen community stays in the shadows the large group of the masses will never be reached and they need to be reached and shown a more compassionate and thoughtful way to live, if we don't have the masses on our side how on earth will we be able to stand against the governments and large companies and really create change? Oh and i don't know how heroin can be said to do no damage, of course it does damage mentally and physically. Physically it does damage to a persons veins, their liver also gets badly damaged addicts often die of liver failure. Mentally they are broken and very damaged in side that's why they end up taking the drug in the first place to fill those gaps and empty spots within themselves. Nothing good can come from anything unnatural. Naturals don't brake and destroy lives and create a mass emptiness and broken society's, unnatural s and alcohol does.

Much Peace

 

[ohayoco]

Naturals don't brake and destroy lives and create a mass emptiness and broken society's, unnatural s and alcohol does.

Opium is natural, and that can break and destroy lives as much as heroin. Just one of thousands of examples.

 

[ohayoco]

Arguments involving 'natural=good' such as the naturalistic fallacy and the appeal to nature crop up a LOT on here, but they are incorrect. If you're not big on philosophy, watch the South Park episode 'Cherokee Hair Tampons' (starring Cheech & Chong) instead! The only advantage of natural chemicals is that, when there is a history of human experimentation with it, more is known about the effects... ancient psychonauts sitting in the jungle consuming it... in a less scientific way than modern psychonauts use synthetics and previously overlooked natural chemicals and combinations.

 

[bufoman]

Naturals don't brake and destroy lives and create a mass emptiness and broken society's, unnatural s and alcohol does.

Opium is natural, and that can break and destroy lives as much as heroin. Just one of thousands of examples.

I agree with the natural vs. Synthetic. Opium can be almost as addictive as heroin. Neither necessarily destroy anyones life. The route of administration is slightly different and different pharmacokinetics result in s different levels of "addicitiveness". However heroin has been made into the monster it is because of prohibition. Heroin can be used very safely, if it is pure and one knows the dose they are taking. Heroin has virtually no long term health risks. Prior to prohibition there were many heroin addicts, the overdose rate was virtually zero, it was used properly. Yes people were addicted but it didn't interfere with their lives in any way. Many people lived long productive lives using heroin. As do many heroin addicts today, most are not street criminals, this is a prohibitionist propaganda. They collect their data in prisons for god sake, talk about biasing the studies. Most who try heroin don't even like it and never do it again. Only a very small percent end up using it chronically.

See earlier in the thread there was some discussion on the heroin fallacy.

 

['Coatl]

Dude how the hell can you say heroin and opium have never ruined anyones life?

Thats just bullshit man.

 

[bufoman]

Where did I say that? Your taking what I said out of context or misunderstanding it. Dude you know damn well I don't feel that way. Of course drugs can ruin lives just as anything can. They are not necessarily bad it is how you use it. These things are nothing without a person to take them. Just like a gun needs a person to use it. 5 of my friends are dead because of their heroin use. But it was prohibition that killed them. They would all be here today if they knew what they were taking and how much. Heroin is a monster but it has been made that way because of prohibition. Look at heroin use before prohibition. Overdoses were a rare occasion, heroin related crime was unheard of, and people lived normal productive lives. Also most people didn't inject it because of the low cost and high purity. Prohibition is creating the very problems it claims to be at war with, how can you not see this? Do you honestly believe that you learned in DARE class is truthful. You obviously didn't believe it about hallucinogen why opiates?

People have been using opiates for tens of thousands of years. Most people do still use them responsibly even today. But they have been made more dangerous because you don't know what your taking and how much. The quality varies from day to day. It is cut with all sorts of strange psychoactive drugs to "fuck " you up more. It is expensive because of the black market. people don't have access to honest information or real help if they need it. Kids and teens can buy it easily because it is not regulated. So criminals decide what is in it, the purity, and the availability. Knowledge, purity, control of availability are the only tools we have to control the drug population and prohibition destroys each and everyone.


Anything can ruined someones life. Some people are workaholics, some gamble their kids college funds away. Does that mean that no one should do these things? No, of course some people abuse things. Prohibition only makes these things more dangerous. Drugs can be dangerous, but making them more dangerous is not the best strategy for helping people.

 

['Coatl]

Neither necessarily destroy anyones life.

In your above post...

I don't understand how you can say "O heroin is no big deal".

I know it's not as bad as the propaganda... but it's bad.

 

[bufoman]

Why do you feel this way? I know it can be destructive but it can be used safely and responsibly. It is no worse than others things, it has just become the scape goat of prohibition. Aside from addiction pure heroin has no negative health effects. This is a fact, I am not making it up. The negative effects today are a result of prohibition. prior to prohibition it was used by the same % of population as currently, however the adverse effects were not present becuase they knew what they were taking and how much. It was regulated... Drugs can be bad, prohibition just makes them worse and more dangerous. We need to effectively deal with the problems from drug use.

Look at what alcohol prohibition did. People died, went blind had severe liver damage. These things were not from ethanol (immediate liver damage from contaminants) but from contaminants in the alcohol. This resulted from no regulation and greedy dealers cutting it with methanol. These things NEVER happen today, they are not associated with ethanol but rather prohibition ethanol. The same problems are going on today. No one is saying heroin is harmless, that would be a bold face LIE but it is no worse than other drugs if it is regulated and use properly. Prohibition heroin is very dangerous, but even still not everyone who tries it becomes addicted, or steals, or injects it. But it can ruin your life yes.

I am not trying to advocate heroin use. Contemporary heroin use is very dangerous because you don't know what you are taking and how much. This is confounded by the addictive nature and high price thus some people (not most) will commit criminal acts to obtain money. Also the high price and low quality forces people to inject it, this if not done properly and sterile results in most of the problems we associate with heroin use. Some people did inject before prohibition but not as many as do now.

Prohibition heroin can kill. 5 of my friends are dead because they didn't know that the bag contained a high dose of fentynal. In all cases it was fentynal not heroin that killed, this is true of most ODs. People who OD are not trying to see how high they can get, it is accidental they do their normal dose. But this dose is measured in bags rather than mg, the amount of mg's in a bag varies form day to day as does the other drugs in it. Many dealers do this purposely because if people od others think the product is really good and will buy more. These things are a result of prohibition not heroin.

 

[VisualDistortion]

I think things will soon start leaning towards regulation and phasing out prohibition. In california, as of last year sometime, needles can now be purchased with no need for a name or address. Things like this will go a long way in cleaning up the trail of destruction left behind by prohibition. Coatl, it's not that heroin and other drugs are GOOD things, it's just that prohibition makes many times more dangerous. I think regulation over pohibition is just a lesser of two evil's.

 

[bufoman]

I think things will soon start leaning towards regulation and phasing out prohibition. In california, as of last year sometime, needles can now be purchased with no need for a name or address. Things like this will go a long way in cleaning up the trail of destruction left behind by prohibition. Coatl, it's not that heroin and other drugs are GOOD things, it's just that prohibition makes many times more dangerous. I think regulation over pohibition is just a lesser of two evil's.

Exactly. No one is saying drugs are harmless. Just that supporting policies that make them more harmful while eroding health, safety and liberty is not a moral strategy nor effective. It is not just drug users who suffer form prohibition. Crime, drug related arrests, overdoses, are all higher than ever because of prohibition. Everyone is effected. We need to responsibly regulate these things to minimize the adverse effects and get people the help that they need. We can not do these things with drug use underground plus the political climate severely impedes truthful scientific investigations that may develop effective treatments or understand abuse versus use. Also new safer drugs could be developed to minimize addiction and side effects.

people are not going to stop using drugs. We just have to ensure they are done in the safest manner possible with the least cost to society. The current strategy maximizes all of the negatives, while making all the positive tools we have against drug use illegal.

 

[Aegle]

I know that any addiction can destroy a life, an addiction is something self obsessive and self obsession eats away at people. I don't personally feel that you can compare the harmful affects of heroin to opium at all they just aren't on the same level, swim has experienced opium before and I'm not addicted. I'm not homeless on the street and trying to sell my possessions to buy opium. My life is very good, healthy and stable, i do yoga and i eat healthy. I cant say ive ever met someone who is healthy and happy mentally who uses heroin. I can have opium and just leave it at that, but ive seen my friends who have tried heroin and they end up getting addicted way to fast and in short periods of time their lives get destroyed before their eyes. i cannot find any basis for your comparison bufoman.

Much Peace

 

[VisualDistortion]

I know that any addiction can destroy a life, an addiction is something self obsessive and self obsession eats away at people. I don't personally feel that you can compare the harmful affects of heroin to opium at all they just aren't on the same level, swim has experienced opium before and I'm not addicted. I'm not homeless on the street and trying to sell my possessions to buy opium. My life is very good, healthy and stable, i do yoga and i eat healthy. I cant say ive ever met someone who is healthy and happy mentally who uses heroin. I can have opium and just leave it at that, but ive seen my friends who have tried heroin and they end up getting addicted way to fast and in short periods of time their lives get destroyed before their eyes. i cannot find any basis for your comparison bufoman.

Much Peace

Heroin is just opium on steroids. They're very similar, seeing as how heroin is derived from opium. I to have done opium. Very nice drug, but I'm not addicted either. Just because you try a drug that doesn't mean you wil get addicted. Most people who try heroin won't become addicted although it is certainly an addictive drug. Also, the addiction of the prohibition era is a totally different thing than addiction pre-prohibition. Heroin addicts pre-prohibition were clean and the drugs were pure and cheap. Cheapness cut way down on the crime caused by addiction and the cleanliness and purity of the drugs almost eliminated the overdose and disease risk. Also, the social stigma wasn't existent. I believe the modern heroin stigma goes just as far as the drug in destroying lives. Anyways, post prhobition heroin has become expensive. It is a black market drug. The cost of the drug is responsible for the crimes behind it. The cost is also responsible for the dangers. Since it is an expensive drug, it is often cut with other drugs and things so drugs dealers can cut a better profit. This increases overdosing risk because the actual dose is never really known. Often times the things that heroin is cut with are far more dangerous than heroin itself. It's cost also forces many addicts to turn to the most effective means of use, intraveinously. This is responsible for much of the disease and sickness behind the drug. Give addicts cheap and easy access to clean needles and watch the spreadrate of HIV drop. Also, when heroin is used intraveinously, this also greatly increasing the risk of overdosing. Prohibition has made this drug as dangerous and destructive as it is.

Once again, no one is saying that if you take heroin your going to live for ever and have laser vision. But it is made much, much worse by prohibition. Also, the natural vs synthetic arguement sucks. There are a multitude of plants I could go out and get high off of, but they could kill me. Case in point, datura. The whole mother earth, nature is good train of thought is awesome, but don't let it blind you. Once again, HEROIN IS NOT GOOD, PROHIBITION JUST MAKES IT MUCH WORSE. Much over the damages cause by the drugs could be controlled over eliminated if prohibition was abolished and regulation was instituted.