What do you make of this?

[Aegle]

What these studies are really showing is that any kind of so called transcendental experience happening from meditation is really just happening in your mind.

Burnt

If we all create our own reality and perspective how can anything really be completely objective. All so called facts have been filtered through someones logic and understanding. Everything each person experiences is within the mind and consciousness...This however does not make what they are experiencing any less real.


Much Peace and Happiness

 

[Saidin]

Why? Its physiologically impossible. Your body NEEDS things like glucose to survive. Your bodies metabolism cannot stop by meditation. You can slow things down but its impossible to stop it without dieing. Every heart beat you have every thought you think consumes energy. If that energy is not replaced you die.

Once again Burnt, claiming truth without having done any research into the subject. Look into in inedia, there have been claims of it thoughout history, mostly associated with stigmatics, and one very unique case fairly well documented of a woman whom they watched, and tested, and analized her stool and found nothing that would indicated she had eaten or drank anything during the time of observation.

As for stopping the metabolism...look into Buddhist Death Meditation. I think the record (well documented) is 18 days of a body staying completely immobile in a sitting position without decaying after the heart stopped beating and breathing ceased.

There are things that empirical science cannot explain. To dismiss everything out of hand as "dangerous" and "impossible" is as dangerous and foolish as you make these claims to be.

Okay, I hear yeah, I just think some things science will never be able to understand because science is mind based, while somethings are no-mind based. Just me.

Science is mind based in a very limited range of possibilities. It is purely objective, and totally discounts the subjective. It answers the questions for us of "what does it do?" but cannot explain in the slightest, "what does it mean?" Therefore it always has been, and always will be an incomplete description of what reality really is.

In fact there is no such thing as subjectivity and objectivity as all objects are subjects, and all subjects are objects. There is no difference, there is just existence, inseparable, whole.

 

[Ayawasqero]

Nothing. What´s the topic anyway?

 

[Cheeto]

"If we all create our own reality and perspective how can anything really be completely objective. All so called facts have been filtered through someones logic and understanding."

How would one assume we create our on reality?? I think a big problem we have is trying to create our own reality by what we think and assume without confirming what is able to confirm. Things we can't confirm by physicaly seeing we can confirm by predictions based on the theory, You can think you can fly all you want, but science and study will tell you if you jump off a building your only going to drop. Accepting what ever you feel as truth is not a wise decision, if you feel its real your main objective should be to set out to confirm it. I know some people can take skeptisim to an extreme, where truly its not even skeptisim, because you should be skeptical of even your own views, you should be skeptical that science knows everything, but you should not accept things as solid truth just because you think its truth.

Education is the key! Its easy to assume things are real when you know nothing about what has been learnd and confirmed, education can show you your flaws, then your mind may change.
If you question any certain scientific theory then you should set out to answer the question and understand either why they're right or point out there flaws.


"one very unique case fairly well documented of a woman whom they watched, and tested, and analized her stool and found nothing that would indicated she had eaten or drank anything during the time of observation"

What woman??

Ellen Greve aka Jasmuheen?? Has been proved she is a fraud.

If she had not ate anything how would she produce stool? Stool is to excrete toxins from the food you eat, if you don't eat your not in taking toxins, therefor you do not produce stool. Look at the bear, it eats alot of food storing energy in its fat, when it hibernates it does not wake up every few days to take a shit, because its not intaking food so its not producing stool.

You can't just accept any claim any jackass makes, that would make you an idoit, people are capable of lieing, and known to do it over and over. If someone wanted to prove there claim it wouldn't be that hard, the fact that no one can prove they don't eat should raise questions for you, if you learned how to live without eating, do you think it would be that hard to prove?

I do agree, science is limited, but assumptions don't count for shit other than an idea that should be set out to confirm its reality.

 

[Cheeto]

Direct me to the Buddhist Death Meditation research you speak of. I did a search on it and found that they do meditate to die peacefully, but i see nothing about the body being there for so long without rotting, after the body was dead.

 

[Aegle]

How would one assume we create our on reality??

Cheeto

This is not just an assumption that i am making, from my own research this is the conclusion that i have come to. I do not believe anything blindly, i research everything very deeply and only come to my own personal conclusion once i have made the discovery for myself. I have discovered in my life's journey that we do indeed create our own reality. :roll:


Much Peace and Understanding

 

[Cheeto]

How would one assume we create our on reality??

Cheeto

This is not just an assumption that i am making, from my own research this is the conclusion that i have come to. I do not believe anything blindly, i research everything very deeply and only come to my own personal conclusion once i have made the discovery for myself. I have discovered in my life's journey that we do indeed create our own reality. :roll:


Much Peace and Understanding

Sorry if i offended you in any way, i did not mean it like that. In my view of the deffinition of reality, reality is a constant, its the one thing that dosen't change from person to person, like gravity is a part of reality, earth is a part of reality. Maybe i took your statement to literal, i know that everyones perception of reality of is different, but would you agree that there is a reality that dosen't change based on others views?

 

[Citta]

What these studies are really showing is that any kind of so called transcendental experience happening from meditation is really just happening in your mind.

If it did not happen in the mind, where else would it be happening? Your statement probably came out a little bit wrong, and I think what you're really trying to say is that these experiences have no validity(?). If that is the case this is your assumption and an assumption only, because there is nothing that really indicates that this is a fact. Sure, you can choose to explain a transcendental experience through neuroscience, but what does it matter? It gives us a clue to what is happening within the brain, but it does not explain the experience itself - the experience is still there, and it happened THROUGH your mind in the same way EVERYTHING in your life flows into the mind where it becomes an experience for you.

You can choose to explain all kinds of experiences through this framework, but the experiences are still there Burnt. And how organized matter creates an experience of what we call reality in the first place is a question too big to really answer, at least for now. And what scientific law in the whole universe says that our normal setup of chemicals in the body is the only true way to perceive reality? Who says that an altered chemistry in the body creates false experiences and false experiences only?

Our body is in the shape it is in to best deal with the challenges of our environment, it's pretty obvious we don't perceive everything that is going on around us at all times. All species perceive their little corner of reality with their bodies and its own set of chemistry, we are no exception. And within a specie there is a whole lot of different individual creatures experiencing reality a little different from everyone else in the horde. It would for example be IMPOSSIBLE to imagine how a little fly experiences reality, or a cat, or a dog, or whatever. Even another human being for that matter. So claiming that an altered state of consciousness originating from an altered chemistry in the body is false would be totally unlogical and upright stupid. So if this is what you're saying Burnt, I think you're coming to short on the issue.

With that said I do not claim that everything we experience are applicable to our everyday normal reality and our current knowledge of it, but I am not so narrow that I totally ignore the whole issue and shove it under the carpet just because it ain't part of how we usually perceive things.

 

[burnt]

If it did not happen in the mind, where else would it be happening? Your statement probably came out a little bit wrong, and I think what you're really trying to say is that these experiences have no validity(?). If that is the case this is your assumption and an assumption only, because there is nothing that really indicates that this is a fact. Sure, you can choose to explain a transcendental experience through neuroscience, but what does it matter? It gives us a clue to what is happening within the brain, but it does not explain the experience itself - the experience is still there, and it happened THROUGH your mind in the same way EVERYTHING in your life flows into the mind where it becomes an experience for you.

You can choose to explain all kinds of experiences through this framework, but the experiences are still there Burnt. And how organized matter creates an experience of what we call reality in the first place is a question too big to really answer, at least for now. And what scientific law in the whole universe says that our normal setup of chemicals in the body is the only true way to perceive reality? Who says that an altered chemistry in the body creates false experiences and false experiences only?

Our body is in the shape it is in to best deal with the challenges of our environment, it's pretty obvious we don't perceive everything that is going on around us at all times. All species perceive their little corner of reality with their bodies and its own set of chemistry, we are no exception. And within a specie there is a whole lot of different individual creatures experiencing reality a little different from everyone else in the horde. It would for example be IMPOSSIBLE to imagine how a little fly experiences reality, or a cat, or a dog, or whatever. Even another human being for that matter. So claiming that an altered state of consciousness originating from an altered chemistry in the body is false would be totally unlogical and upright stupid. So if this is what you're saying Burnt, I think you're coming to short on the issue.

With that said I do not claim that everything we experience are applicable to our everyday normal reality and our current knowledge of it, but I am not so narrow that I totally ignore the whole issue and shove it under the carpet just because it ain't part of how we usually perceive things.

You have brought up some excellent points and I thank you for making it a very clear criticism.

I will get back to this sometime this weekend or when I have time. But excellent points. But I have an explanation or rather clarification.

 

[burnt]

As for stopping the metabolism...look into Buddhist Death Meditation. I think the record (well documented) is 18 days of a body staying completely immobile in a sitting position without decaying after the heart stopped beating and breathing ceased.

Hehe your back saidin nice to reengage our discussions

I do think that people can slow down their metabolism to the point where they can go without food or water for significant periods of time. I'm pretty sure there has got to be a limit though and thats probably less then a month without water for sure. But I am not sure if I believe that peoples heart could stop bleeding and breathing ceased. Thats an intense claim that someone can die and come back via meditation. I am curious to see some studies on it though if you have anything or can point me to any places to look into it.

I do not doubt the bodies amazing abilities and the abilities of our mind but it is precisely these abilities that makes me skeptical

Ill get back to all this soon. Right now its friday and time to have fun and party.

 

[damiana]

Ill get back to all this soon. Right now its friday and time to have fun and party.

Hell yeah, been a long week.

 

[Saidin]

Hehe your back saidin nice to reengage our discussions

Tis good to be able to engage again, as always I enjoy our discussions. I've been travelling for the last month and in Hobart, Australia right now. I'm heading back home tomorrow, so once I get over some jet lag and get my bearings I'll dig up what I can find.

Looking forward again to some good debate, been haning around with a bunch of 70+ year olds on a cruise, and well as I'm sure you can imagine, these types of topics are not exactly dinner conversation!

Hope you are all doing well!

 

[burnt]

If it did not happen in the mind, where else would it be happening? Your statement probably came out a little bit wrong, and I think what you're really trying to say is that these experiences have no validity(?). If that is the case this is your assumption and an assumption only, because there is nothing that really indicates that this is a fact. Sure, you can choose to explain a transcendental experience through neuroscience, but what does it matter? It gives us a clue to what is happening within the brain, but it does not explain the experience itself - the experience is still there, and it happened THROUGH your mind in the same way EVERYTHING in your life flows into the mind where it becomes an experience for you.

Yes all human experience is filtered through our senses and perceived in our mind. Also true that just observing neuronal firing does not explain what someone is experiencing but just shows that a group of cells are active in creating or thinking about or physiologically responding to that experience or stimulus.

You can choose to explain all kinds of experiences through this framework, but the experiences are still there Burnt. And how organized matter creates an experience of what we call reality in the first place is a question too big to really answer, at least for now. And what scientific law in the whole universe says that our normal setup of chemicals in the body is the only true way to perceive reality? Who says that an altered chemistry in the body creates false experiences and false experiences only?

I wouldn't call any experience false. An experience is an experience. What many don't see in my argument is not that the experience is false but that the interpretation of the experience is false. There is a clear difference here.

Lets say I look at a wooden wall while sober. Its just a wall with some wiggly lines and circles in it or dark brown and light brown. Those dark and brown lines are a result of real physical stuff in the wood changing the wavelength of light being reflected off the wood perceived via our eyes and nervous system. Its not a perfect true picture of the wood but its a good approximation in our medium sized world that serves its function.

Now lets say I look at a wooden wall while on LSD. It starts morphing and changing turning colors etc. This happens because LSD effects our perceptions. The same light is hitting our eyes and the wood has not really changed but the way our brain is interpreting it is different. That's all. That's the hallucinogenic experience simplified.

There is no one true way to perceive reality. No organism can incorporate all of reality into their sensory and perceptual processes. It would be chaos and almost impossible to survive with so much information. It would also be very wasteful to perceive radio waves for example and spend all that time perceiving radio waves when it served no evolutionary function. We as human beings perceive what we perceive about reality because our senses evolved to perceived those aspects of reality. It does not mean that represents true reality its just an aspect of reality.

Our body is in the shape it is in to best deal with the challenges of our environment, it's pretty obvious we don't perceive everything that is going on around us at all times. All species perceive their little corner of reality with their bodies and its own set of chemistry, we are no exception. And within a specie there is a whole lot of different individual creatures experiencing reality a little different from everyone else in the horde. It would for example be IMPOSSIBLE to imagine how a little fly experiences reality, or a cat, or a dog, or whatever. Even another human being for that matter. So claiming that an altered state of consciousness originating from an altered chemistry in the body is false would be totally unlogical and upright stupid. So if this is what you're saying Burnt, I think you're coming to short on the issue.

Yes all organisms are experiencing reality slightly differently. None is perceiving all of reality. So your right I am not claiming that an experience of altered states of consciousness are false but their interpretation is false.

Go back to my wood example. My perception that the wood is changing and morphing is false because the wood is not changing and morphing my brain is just changing the way its perceived. Nothing external is changing only the mind is changing. No one else observes the wood morphing and if you look at the chemical and physical structure of the wood its the same no matter what drug you are on.

With that said I do not claim that everything we experience are applicable to our everyday normal reality and our current knowledge of it, but I am not so narrow that I totally ignore the whole issue and shove it under the carpet just because it ain't part of how we usually perceive things.

There is valuable information about yourself and your place in the world to be gained from altered states of consciousness. Everyone always thinks that when I say your perception of being one with the universe is just a drug induced hallucination means that I am close minded and not paying attention. What drug induced hallucinations tell us is that our brain can change our perception of reality. Optical illusions tell us the same. This is important information and its useful for us to know it.

 

[Citta]

Burnt:

Good reply, it seems we are not actually arguing anything at all. It looks to me that we are basically saying pretty much the same things just in different ways. Thank you for your time =)

edit: Tho I wonder what exactly you mean by that being one with the universe is only a drug induced hallucination. Are you saying that an experience like this is bullshit with no truth to it? Not that the experience itself is false, we agree on an experience being an experience no matter what, but rather the validity of it (if you catch my drift). Oops, we're going pretty much off-topic here burnt, let's hope the others can forgive us =)

 

[soulman]

Lets say I look at a wooden wall while sober. Its just a wall with some wiggly lines and circles in it or dark brown and light brown. Those dark and brown lines are a result of real physical stuff in the wood changing the wavelength of light being reflected off the wood perceived via our eyes and nervous system. Its not a perfect true picture of the wood but its a good approximation in our medium sized world that serves its function.

Now lets say I look at a wooden wall while on LSD. It starts morphing and changing turning colors etc. This happens because LSD effects our perceptions. The same light is hitting our eyes and the wood has not really changed but the way our brain is interpreting it is different. That's all. That's the hallucinogenic experience simplified.

There is no one true way to perceive reality. No organism can incorporate all of reality into their sensory and perceptual processes. It would be chaos and almost impossible to survive with so much information. It would also be very wasteful to perceive radio waves for example and spend all that time perceiving radio waves when it served no evolutionary function. We as human beings perceive what we perceive about reality because our senses evolved to perceived those aspects of reality. It does not mean that represents true reality its just an aspect of reality.

Exactly,
Our ultimate reality is a multitude of wavelengths superimposed on top of each other, and we can only perceive a fraction of these wavelengths.
Everyone perceives reality differently due to our own filters, being their preconceived ideas, past experiences and judgements.
So who is to say that when you see the wood morphing that it isnt happening. It may be that other people cannot see this happening, but maybe thats because their reality filters havent been altered.
I suppose this can be countered with the fact that if this was the case, groups who took psychedelics together should see the same hallucinations, and although this doesnt always happen, there have been documented cases where this has happened, so there is some credence to the theory

 

[burnt]

edit: Tho I wonder what exactly you mean by that being one with the universe is only a drug induced hallucination. Are you saying that an experience like this is bullshit with no truth to it? Not that the experience itself is false, we agree on an experience being an experience no matter what, but rather the validity of it (if you catch my drift). Oops, we're going pretty much off-topic here burnt, let's hope the others can forgive us =)

Well I think its a misinterpretation of the experience. SWIM knows the experience and its amazing and very moving. What I really think is happening is the circuitry involved in creating the perception of the area of your body and its relationship to the world around it breaks down so you "feel" like you are everything around you. This is something that can be studied.

So who is to say that when you see the wood morphing that it isnt happening. It may be that other people cannot see this happening, but maybe thats because their reality filters havent been altered.
I suppose this can be countered with the fact that if this was the case, groups who took psychedelics together should see the same hallucinations, and although this doesnt always happen, there have been documented cases where this has happened, so there is some credence to the theory

I think group hallucinations are a result of being in a similar environment. Like if your hanging out with your friends at a music show and you all "see" the music well it makes sense. It doesn't need to be exactly the same either. If two people look at a tree tripping and they both see it morphing doesn't say the tree is morphing its just your both on the same drug. Trying doing it with a sober person (SWIM has). It doesn't work.

 

[Citta]

Well I think its a misinterpretation of the experience. SWIM knows the experience and its amazing and very moving. What I really think is happening is the circuitry involved in creating the perception of the area of your body and its relationship to the world around it breaks down so you "feel" like you are everything around you. This is something that can be studied.

Yes, and studying these things are very interesting. But that we can explain some of the mechanisms behind experiences like this does not make it any less real nor any less interesting. It is just a perspective in which to explain the phenomena.

All events can be explained through the eyes of all sorts of people, either that be a physicist or a chemist, a biologist or an ecologist, a psychiatrist or a mystic and so on. These are all just perspectives, and there are countless of them. One perspective does not necessarily exclude the other...

 

[Aegle]

Sorry if i offended you in any way, i did not mean it like that. In my view of the deffinition of reality, reality is a constant, its the one thing that dosen't change from person to person, like gravity is a part of reality, earth is a part of reality. Maybe i took your statement to literal, i know that everyones perception of reality of is different, but would you agree that there is a reality that dosen't change based on others views?

Cheeto

No worries, you did not offend me at all i was just stating my point of view on reality. I'm sorry but i don't agree with the view of a fix and static reality as nothing in nature is even fixed or static in any way so why would reality be so?


Much Peace and Happiness

 

[jamie]

I dont really agree with the idea of reality as a fixed thing either..

It's not practical when you take into account culture..people live and die through their own eyes..the way they see the world IS the way it is to them..it shapes the culture they live in..science is just another way of looking at that world.

Just as scientists live and die through the way they see the world..not really that different.

Lots of people are going to disagree with me but thats ok..I just dont think there is much evidence of a static reality..

 

[soulfood]

Ah see this view always confuses me...

Surely the word reality = What is real. So are you saying how people percieve the world themselves is reality? Like if someone was born and left in a dark box, to them the outside world does not exist?