When Aya doesn't work...

[Sabnock1990]

Hello all of the Nexus this is ShamensStamen here (aka Sabnock), and i have a question to pose for you all. One thing i've noticed about being a part of online Ayahuasca communities is that i often see from people where they say they didn't get much of an effect from Aya or didn't get any effect at all, and yet people are insistent that "the medicine is still working" even though clearly yeah they may get Harmala effects but it's clear the DMT wasn't effective/active.

My advice for people has been to, if they can, keep the ingredients separate and pre-dose the Harmalas prior to DMT consumption so that gut MAO-A can be more fully inhibited so that when the DMT is consumed it's not broken down and instead fully orally active. Yet, people treat me and talk to me as if i'm some idiot and because traditionally the plants are combined together that it is "the way" and that neither me nor anyone else who advocates for keeping the plants separate knows what we're talking about.

I don't take it personally because these folks just don't seem to understand. But It's very easy to get DMT orally activated properly, it just requires proper gut MAO-A inhibition, whereas if you keep the plants combined, the DMT may or may not work because it may be deactivated or partially deactivated by uninhibited MAO-A, because ya know, DMT is not orally active without MAO-A inhibition, yet people seem to think that just because you mix the two plants together that it's going to work 100% all the time, but these people fail to understand that gut MAO-A is not instantly inhibited and even if combining the plants together is traditional and "works", it's not consistent and people can have dosages all over the place, the DMT may or may not work, and it's so much simpler and easier to just weigh one's dosages, predose the Harmalas to inhibit gut MAO-A, and then take the DMT, and all is well.

So i guess my question here is, why do people have such a hard time understanding something as extremely simple as this, and why do people feel the need to become defensive and closed minded (not open to new understanding/information) and come up with a variety of stupid/silly not true excuses as to why someone didn't get the full effect? Especially with people paying so much money to go to retreats and such and some unlucky people don't have it work for them or it only works a few days into it for them, idk, i just see it all as a big rip off and people shouldn't be lying about something like this, it's understandable why Aya wouldn't work so well as one brew compared to keeping the plants separate, but why wouldn't people want a properly dosed medicine, especially if they're going to pay that much for it?

There's also the fact that it seems common for people to have to drink multiple cups/doses of Aya in order to get an experience or go more deeply, yet all that is doing is overdosing you on the Harmalas while trying to get enough DMT absorbed to give the full effect, in essence overdosing on Harmalas and quite potentially the DMT as well, when that is totally unnecessary.

So what do you all think? Why do people have a hard time understanding the necessity for proper dosing/timing? And why are people convinced they know what's what because they drink with a "thousand year old traditional lineage"? Lineage or not, Aya as an all in one brew is inconsistent, wouldn't it be much better to just inhibit gut MAO-A and then consume the DMT and everything works as it should? Or am i the only one who gets annoyed by people's ignorance on this subject?

 

[dithyramb]

I've been drinking rue and DMT plant separately for many years now, but I am pursuing single medicine. The few times I tried it, even though the effects were less sharp, the alchemized single consciousness felt much more like perfect medicine. There are other dimensions to this craft than just activating DMT...

Let's just say you are expressing the clash of very different paradigms.

 

[Sabnock1990]

No doubt i understand what you're saying and i've felt that too, when DMT is consumed at different time frames there can be a bit of a different feel to things, and of course it's about far more than activating DMT, but don't you find it a bit odd that people are so averse to making sure things are dosed more properly? I mean for overall effectiveness and consistency, you want to make sure of dosages on both sides, and ideally you'd want all the DMT to be active, right?

I think my main qualm here is that if you're a part of these online Aya communities long enough, you will see many people talk about how they didn't get the full effect, they may have had vomiting, they may have felt something, which comes from the Harmala aspect because the Harmalas are always active, so clearly the problem is on the DMT side of things, right? Yet you wouldn't believe the amount of denial and assumptions and beliefs that people have about why the medicine didn't work for them, could be anything from energetic blockages, to being a Cannabis user (which i was a stoner for 10 years, and i can tell you for a fact, anyone who says Cannabis weakens the medicine or prevents it from working, doesn't know what they're talking about), to something dietary impacting things, to "the medicine is still working even if you didn't feel it, it's cleaning you out", and other excuses/assumptions when the answer is very obvious and literally staring everyone in the face.

I've done a lot of experimentation in my day, no i'm not the most experienced around and i still have much to learn, but i do know mechanisms of action and how things work in the body and it should be common sense by now that DMT is not orally active without sufficient and adequate MAO-A inhibition, it's not like mushrooms because mushrooms are already orally active, DMT isn't, at least with mushrooms it always works so long as you take a good dosage and don't have a tolerance developed, but with Aya all in one brews, it's clear to me at least that all of these people not getting the full effect has to do with DMT activation (or rather lack thereof).

In my experience, there are a few factors that determine full effect of this stuff. Quality plant material, thorough/proper brewing, proper dosages, and for DMT's sake, proper timing (predosing the Harmalas so that gut MAO-A can be more fully inhibited by the time the DMT is consumed so that it becomes fully orally active), and lastly digestion because sluggish digestion or even food can throw off absorption or timing of the medicine. So with those factors taken into account, the medicine always works, it's pretty simple and self-explanatory, i feel, yet most of these people in these communities (aside from here, because DMT Nexus actually tries to study and learn about things and figure things out, which i truly appreciate and agree with) seem to know nothing hardly about how the medicine works because they don't figure things out for themselves and they don't experiment or do testing, they rely on brews provided by these retreat centers or shamans, and that's not to say the medicine sucks or is weak or anything, it's just that it can be inconsistent or not as effective as even just waiting 5 minutes maybe after the Harmalas to dose the DMT.

Point is though, if DMT was not subject to deactivation by MAO-A, this would not be an issue, and that's a fact because all other active compounds work when you take a sufficient dose, Harmalas work, Psilocin works, LSD works, medications work, even vitamins and minerals work, yet somehow we're supposed to believe Aya is somehow the only thing on this planet that is different enough to sometimes work, sometimes not? No. It's because of the DMT, and i feel like people really misunderstand where i'm coming from with all this, ya know? If DMT's oral activity wasn't an issue, Ayahuasca would always work, and it does always work, for me, because i inhibit gut MAO-A before consuming the DMT and things synergize just fine for me, i prefer to take the DMT an hour after the Harmalas as i find that to be when gut MAO-A is inhibited moreso to the max. Doesn't mean you can't take the DMT earlier than that, or even at the same time, just that if you want things to work fully and consistently (which is very much so possible, because i and many others do it), you ideally want to make sure the DMT is going to be fully active.

Also, take Psilohuasca for example. Mushrooms, or rather lets say Psilocin, is always orally active, yet is also somewhat subject to metabolism by MAO-A, and so when it comes to Psilohuasca, if you take the Psilocin at the same time as the Harmalas, you may or may not get the proper potentiation of the Psilocin (in terms of dosage, and lengthening of duration), but if you predose the Harmalas and take the Psilocin 30 minutes to an hour in when gut MAO-A is more thoroughly inhibited, you get the proper potentiation of the Psilocin dosage and lengthening of the duration to 9 to 12 hours. I've done this many times using Harmalas, as well as Moclobemide, and i've also read reports from others where they've taken them at the same time vs taking them separately and it seems taking them at the same time some people just don't experience the potentiation or lengthening of duration but do still notice the alteration of the nature/character of the experience because of the Harmala effects. So that right there tells us all we need to know about the gut's MAO-A inhibition window, the inhibition is transient and can take some time to more fully take effect, and if you take the DMT or Psilocin too early or too late, it's not going to maximize the effectiveness/consistency of this stuff.

So with that said, all i'm saying is, why do people make up excuses for things like this, why don't people know about this, why don't people believe this or why are they so defensive about it? It's not like separating the plants goes against thousands of years of tradition, and just because things are done one way for so long doesn't mean that's "the way". I mean, most likely, i would think, shamans probably didn't think anything about separating the plants when it comes to DMT as an admixture, why would they? Nor do i think they would experiment around with drinking the Caapi, and then sometime later drinking the DMT, no, they probably just thought it was easier to brew the plants together, not knowing anything about MAO-A inhibition (unless they later on tried drinking the DMT plant without the Caapi and then realized it didn't work and so then they suspected something and just kept the plants mixed together), so it's easy to understand why they would keep the plants mixed together and why it's been done that way for so long, that's very easy to understand, but does that mean that is "the way" to take this medicine, or that it's as effective or consistent as it could be? No, it's just the way things have been done, but when people raise questions about why Aya didn't work for them while others were getting the effects just fine, yeah there can be a few factors to consider, even one's CYP2D6 activity as some are high in CYP2D6 (which metabolizes the Harmalas) or even may have too much MAO-A, and so may need a higher Harmala dosage, but outside of that, it's all about activating the DMT, then things work just fine with no problems.

So like, i don't see/understand why people have to make such a big deal out of this, it should be basic common knowledge/understanding when it comes to Ayahuasca and those who work with it. Personally Aya is my favorite medicine (in all forms), and anything i'm interested in i learn everything i can about it, and even the first time i looked it up and saw where DMT is not orally active unless MAO-A is inhibited, and then came here and saw the predosing advice, i had the basic understanding that ideally, you want to inhibit MAO-A before consuming the DMT, for best/maximum results. And so you would think that anyone who works with this medicine, would know that one basic fact about the medicine they work with, and you would think it'd be one of the first explanations as to why Aya didn't work for someone, but no, people have to complicate it with speculation and assumptions that have absolutely nothing to do with this medicine working or not, and so the answer/solution here is very obvious and staring everyone in the face, and yet people act like they know what's what because they follow some tradition and everyone who says something contrary is just deemed as a crazy westerner who knows absolutely nothing compared to some shaman from some thousands of years old lineage, it's ridiculous and absurd and not very open minded or receptive of them at all.

The more i see from these online Aya communities, the more i am thankful for the DMT Nexus and for the solo path, because people in these communities, yes they may be getting help and relief and healing and all that from these ceremonies, but they are completely missing the bigger picture of things and they don't know nearly as much as they think they do, all they know is what they've been told, they don't learn so much from experience, they learn about things from some shaman guy or a retreat center or they learn from each other and i mean there's room for that, but at the same time, put in the work/testing/experimentation, dig in deep and figure things out, don't just rely on someone else to provide your understanding for you, develop/gain your own understanding through experience. It's very easy to test out the impact of taking DMT at different time frames and seeing what is more effective vs what isn't, but people won't even take the time to do that, they just say what they think to be true and act like anyone who says otherwise is wrong, and it's clear that Aya isn't helping them with their ego problems, yet they want to accuse me and people like me of having some ego issue, again, it's ridiculous, like we all have ego, but when you're clear and awake/aware and you know what's going on and can see most people in their ignorance judging you thinking you're the ignorant one, it's just sad man, and stupid, and rather than taking the time to open their minds and gain more understanding/knowledge/education, they stand on their "traditional high-horse" and their ego stands it's ground and anyone who says differently than what they believe, is somehow wrong.

As i like to say, i embrace all ways to work with this medicine, but some ways are just wiser, safer, and more effective/consistent than others, and if people want the full effect, they should do what gets them the full effect, otherwise, just take what you can get and hope for the best, which is kind of silly if you ask me, no need for russian roulette or luck of the draw when you can just dose and time things properly and get a full and consistent effect each and every time.

 

[dithyramb]

The nexus is the best place to go deep in the material aspect of the practice for sure.

You mentioned the spiritual explanations that people give for not getting a strong experience. Do you believe that the cosmos works in mysterious ways, that perhaps the medicine can respond in its own way when the space is allowed? It seems the traditional view does.

Do you know of the highly concentrated yage paste referred to as "honey"? It is single medicine but it doesn't seem to have a possibility of giving an unintentional weak experience.

 

[Voidmatrix]

You mentioned the spiritual explanations that people give for not getting a strong experience. Do you believe that the cosmos works in mysterious ways, that perhaps the medicine can respond in its own way when the space is allowed? It seems the traditional view does.

I feel like I align with this. While we could say that it's a contextual response of the combination of our biology and through molecules that cause certain effects, but then again, those a part of the cosmos as well :lol:

While I haven't had such an experience with aya (have yet yo ecperience) or pharma, I do experience it in my own way with changa and on rare occasion, freebase. There are times where I have, say, the body load that would deliver vision, but without any vision. I too tend to assume that work is being done and that there are activities for me to perform.

And dithyramb, upon recent reflection I feel I owe you an apology. I'm sorry if in the past it has appeared that I'm nitpicking at you. I'm just incisive and propositionally focused in discourse, but feel I may have been too much in projecting that toward you. That said, I tend to respect and appreciate your opinions, insight, and wisdom, even if I may disagree, for in those moments it give me something to ponder on.

One love

 

[Sabnock1990]

The nexus is the best place to go deep in the material aspect of the practice for sure.

You mentioned the spiritual explanations that people give for not getting a strong experience. Do you believe that the cosmos works in mysterious ways, that perhaps the medicine can respond in its own way when the space is allowed? It seems the traditional view does.

Do you know of the highly concentrated yage paste referred to as "honey"? It is single medicine but it doesn't seem to have a possibility of giving an unintentional weak experience.

I do believe the cosmos works in mysterious ways, but getting Aya to work properly ain't part of that lol. Back during my experimentation, Aya always worked for me, no matter the content of the experience, the effects and strength and dosages were always spot on and things always worked as it should and i had no problems personally, on the contrary it seems rather common for folks to not get much of an effect sometimes from an all in one brew, again, this is because DMT is being deactivated, if the DMT was better protected and thus able to become more orally bioavailable, this wouldn't be an issue, is all i'm saying.

I'm aware of concentrated pastes, and i've heard that there are some pastes that taste like honey or something? To me it seems like pastes may work a bit better, if things are thicker i think they may be able to have a better chance at absorption compared to a watery liquid. But that would be my guess.

 

[Jees]

Hi ShamensStamen,

I've lost a friendship with a 'professional spiritual practitioner' over the fact I told him my brew was on the stove on low simmer while I was at another location talking to him. He got angry I did such a disrespect to the holiness of aya, that I was not blowing mapacho and singing icaros over that pot at that moment. He was appalled as if I opened pandora's box with dynamite.
Yet I see where he was coming from: mental preparation is important. I'm the first to acknowledge this, but I think he took it seven notches too far in the way he coveyed that aspect to me. He could have said "there is room for improvement" but he resourced the you're-bloody-guilty approach.

Religious values cross the practices with the plants. Then, often there goes out the door cut and dry logic. Now this was a blunt example but lesser blunt ones and in many variations and levels exist, all sourcing from a good intention somewhere somehow but growing into black vs white hard stances.

I know what you're going to say: "One can have all of that religious stuff AND logic stuff combined for a win-win situation." But some are on purpose not interested in technicalities, happily being liberated from it, as it seems.

I see these mechanics also happening in other aspects of human development at large, that cut and dry logic gets brutally raped by emotional values of whatever sorts and that this gets celebrated even to the degree that logic becomes demonized. I think this is of all times. I'm far from surprised that there would be an exception for aya and Co.

My 2 pennies.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I hear ya and i agree, and lol about the Aya brewing thing. No doubt, i more than anyone understand wholeheartedly how sacred and mystical and godly and illuminating this stuff is and how it should be respected and all that, but at least for me personally, i haven't found any criticism from the plants/compounds by taking/using them in different ways or experimenting with things or brewing things differently. If people are going to work with this medicine, and i realize it's not everyone's place, but people should try to be a bit more curious/interested in how things work and figuring things out and learning things, ya know be open to learning, not closed off due to dogma.

It's one thing to practice traditional values, it's something completely different to be uptight about 30 minutes to an hour's difference between the Harmalas and the DMT vs consuming them both together at the same time, to me it's so trivial to get bent out of shape about someone recommending/suggesting that people make sure of proper oral DMT activation, especially if they want to get the full effect, but because the plants have been combined into one brew for thousands of years, that negates/trumps the fact that it's not going to be that effective or consistent without making sure the DMT is properly activated?

I just think people don't want to question anything, like "who am i, some gringo, to tell these shamans they've been taking this stuff wrong all this time?", it's not about that, it's merely a suggestion/recommendation for improvement, as you said, it'd be better if people realized there was room for improvement rather than seeing things in such a black and white or either/or situation, try out different things, experiment around, see what all you can do and what all the plants and the body can show you. It's pretty easy to see that DMT or Psilocin is best consumed for Huasca when gut MAO-A is more thoroughly inhibited, especially in DMT's case. And when people say they don't get much of an effect, people should be more curious about what's going on there, or what could be going on there, and explore all the options starting with the most important (dosages, timing, proper oral activation of DMT) and from there see what's going on, because if people spent a little bit of time "perfecting" the consumption of this medicine, things would work so much better and a lot of inconsistency could be removed.

 

[Jees]

IME the digestion speed, how fast the alkaloids travel from stomach to brain, is most mandatory. Same dose, same intake routine, one time a walk in the park, another time a slam.
But I hear you too: just lay out the cards most favorable and then still let the variables do their inevitable thing.

Some are constricted due living conditions/situations and are keen to brew as compact as possible in available space and time frame thus resort in a one pot solution. I remember of a person living in a room, not owning a private kitchen (te kitchen was common grounds) and he used a crockpot in his room and cocacola (pure or diluted idk) as an acidic fluid with success.

Like many I too resorted traditional shamanic conceptual groups as very first encounters with the plants and ceremonies. I grew out of that later, but I'm still grateful for the initiation and guidance they provided on my path. This leads me to have a remaining respect for their approach however that was constituted. Like respecting not-the-most-ideal parents for their efforts, actually copying my stance/policy against my real parents.

It was a taoist teacher I learned (actually copy catting) a life saving interpretation trick, how transform "This dumb sh*t ain't right" into the offering out of love, the suggestion that "There is room for improvement here." I use it a lot to ease my own life, reducing stress, and making an opening to avoid stale mate situations. I hope it may serve others as well.

 

[dithyramb]

Hi void, I appreciate your nice message. I don't know exactly which exchange(s) you are referring to with your apology. I never took offense from anything you said. I myself feel like I should apologize for coming off cranky at times on here. Good to know my writings are not going to waste. And great to learn from being here.

 

[strtman]

‘There is room for improvement here’. I love this one.

Thanks for your input, Jees.