So how will we know that we have removed gramine and hordinine? Any tests that can be done without scientific equipment?
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Where are we at a grass tek?
- Thread starter Ginkgo
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Dagger said:
Yes. It is in benzymes post about DIY Thin Layer Chromatography. That method can be used to get a pattern on a paper. When dmt is identified in that pattern, then other bands/spots are indicative of other molecules. If the method is perfected it could allow for results that are reproducible and comparible. I think after analysis it would be possible to identify gramine and/or hordinine (if they are there.)
I agree with benzyme chromatography is very promising. Chromatography deserves more attention, understanding and testing.
Not only for having a better look at the grasses. In the long run it can be applied to and would boost many nexus research i think.
Would be interested to know what surface of grass would be required to yield enough samples to test and develop the paper chromatography method suggested by Traveller and benzyme in the other thread.
Probably not...I mean...that's why we have a thread on it...cuz nobody's working on itSeraph said:
(I have some brachystachys germinating atm)
I don't see any mention of the methylated betacarbolines known from Phalaris species, but they should be considered and are known from several active phalaris species.
The pharmacology of these is little studied but at least one of them seems to be involved in the Jungle Spice effects and is indicated as potently active in some way.
The fresh young growth of phalaris is effective and any standard method of extraction for DMT would be effective upon a large enough volume of tender new leaves only a few days old.
Prolonged boiling is not required to obtain the alkaloids either, so in theory a large volume of water like 3-4 gallons could be used to simmer bundles of fresh tips in a series, accommodating over all far more grass than would fit into the pot itself by simmering the grass for 10-15 min, then taking it out, draining it well and putting a new bundle in and repeating.
Because the grasses do not contain large amounts of alkaloids concentrating the material in such a manner is one the only feasible methods of making a extract in any decent amount.
Gramine has not been shown to occur (has it?) in the forms of the plants that contain DMT or 5Meo and in some forms betacarbolines are the major alkaloid.
Small amounts of fresh grass juice, such as a tablespoon or two... have also been reported active, including when taken with harmala alkaloids.
The pharmacology of these is little studied but at least one of them seems to be involved in the Jungle Spice effects and is indicated as potently active in some way.
The fresh young growth of phalaris is effective and any standard method of extraction for DMT would be effective upon a large enough volume of tender new leaves only a few days old.
Prolonged boiling is not required to obtain the alkaloids either, so in theory a large volume of water like 3-4 gallons could be used to simmer bundles of fresh tips in a series, accommodating over all far more grass than would fit into the pot itself by simmering the grass for 10-15 min, then taking it out, draining it well and putting a new bundle in and repeating.
Because the grasses do not contain large amounts of alkaloids concentrating the material in such a manner is one the only feasible methods of making a extract in any decent amount.
Gramine has not been shown to occur (has it?) in the forms of the plants that contain DMT or 5Meo and in some forms betacarbolines are the major alkaloid.
Small amounts of fresh grass juice, such as a tablespoon or two... have also been reported active, including when taken with harmala alkaloids.
AlbertKLloyd said:
We're still waiting for people to try jungle double blind, it might be differences in effects are self-suggestion and/or inactive plant oils protecting DMT and therefore improving vaporization.
From where do you get that it is potently active?
Gramine has been shown to occur together with DMT and 5-MeO-DMT but one publication suggests there might be an inverse relationship between them (though in that very publication they claim their results arent generalizable, more tests need to be done.
^ no. You have to reduce the oxides first if you want to pull with naptha.
It may seem like alot of things, but until you actaully work with it yourself you wont understand how difficult grass teks seem to be. If it were as simple as doing an ordinary A/B we would all have endless ammounts of DMT.
It may seem like alot of things, but until you actaully work with it yourself you wont understand how difficult grass teks seem to be. If it were as simple as doing an ordinary A/B we would all have endless ammounts of DMT.
it is worth trying, just be patient and get some rootbark in the meantime. Working out a doable tek is going to take time..but it is worth it.
Can you provide the reference for this please?endlessness said:
As for the 2meTHBC, it is implicated as the culprit behind jungle spice activity and is implicated as a potently active betacarboline, i never said it is potently active, just indicated that it is and until this is ruled out it seems unwise to discount it.
Considering that the molecule is found in Russian olive, extracts of which potentiate DMT, and it is found in phalaris and MHRB as well, there is a lot to suggest that is is strongly active as a betacarboline.
In at least one phalaris form this alkaloid is the major alkaloid, this is in P. paradoxa CPI 14073. I'll sow some soon.
It is as simple as doing an STB, the yields are just really low because phalaris is rarely strong. 1 kg of fresh grass is only about 50g dried and in many cases 0.02% alkaloid is strong material. 2kg of fresh strong phalaris is unlikely to yield more than 20mg alkaloid. While some forms are considered stronger by wet weight, they are known to lose most of their alkaloid when dried and thus still fall into the 0.02-0.04% range at best.fractal enchantment said:
however phalaris extractions have been effective for some people for years and are nothing special and do not require any difference in the approach, many of the same methods that work for MHRB work for phalaris.
i found some data on the gramine co-occurring thing. My mistake, clearly it can occur with DMT in some cases.
AlbertKLloyd said:
hmmm so far I indeed cant find gramine+dmt but this publication shows a sample that contains both 5-meo-dmt and hordenine, though the samples with gramine are not present in the dmt ones and vice versa.
There are a couple more papers I wanna check but dont have subscription, for example can you get access to this one:
Taylor & Francis - Harnessing the Power of Knowledge
Taylor & Francis publishes knowledge and specialty research spanning humanities, social sciences, science and technology, engineering, medicine and healthcare.
? Otherwise Snozz said he will try on friday
And then there are other alkaloids we have no idea about, like 5MMT:
+ all the differences in growing conditions and particular strains.
I think the best would be to get a collection of phalaris from different places analysed, find the best strain and reproduce that, see if even in different growing conditions the alkaloid profile is still favorable.
TLC with some basic standards + colorimetric tests would be a start but def arent enough if we really wanna evolve the grass teks. We need at least GC MS or LC.... I think benz analyzed some phalaris, lets see if he can give us feedback here
I would love to see some tests done on the wild grasses to see if anyone finds anything interesting...
As far as selecting for the good strains, it's already been done for us.
Phalaris AQ1(high dmt strain), Big Medicine (clean dmt profile), and Yugo Red (clean 5-meo strain) cuts are all a quick google search away.
Wild grass is gonna be very hit and miss.
I think spreading, propagating, and testing the known strains is probably our best bet toward a proper grass tek right now.
As far as selecting for the good strains, it's already been done for us.
Phalaris AQ1(high dmt strain), Big Medicine (clean dmt profile), and Yugo Red (clean 5-meo strain) cuts are all a quick google search away.
Wild grass is gonna be very hit and miss.
I think spreading, propagating, and testing the known strains is probably our best bet toward a proper grass tek right now.
^ the big medicine strain was bread for a clean 5meo profile. Johnney Appleseed preferred 5meo over DMT, and even compared his phalaris strain used with rue to rue with pure 5meo and said the grass was better due to other alkaoids it contained.
fractal enchantment said:
My research turns up a different story
"Big Medicine" is a clean DMT source.
Johnny Appleseed's 5-meo strain was called "Turkey Red"
^ lifted this from here: ~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~ - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
^ here: Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout
^ here: Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout
yeah I guess you are right. I want both of those strains. The wild arundinacea here is active but there are other alkaloids as well..both of those strains mentioned above I believe are from BC, which is where I am. I would like to compare them to the wild stuff I extracted.
the dose for big med is about 1 kg of grass fresh, or a double handful or so...
I grew it for awhile, still have some in the yard at my ex-wifes place
it is still too weak to be considered very productive, however it is good for an individual to employ it a couple of times a year
I grew it for awhile, still have some in the yard at my ex-wifes place
it is still too weak to be considered very productive, however it is good for an individual to employ it a couple of times a year
Here's those three papers.endlessness said:
AlbertKLloyd said:
Can you elaborate on your experience with it? Did you extract it or brew with it?..what was the experience like?