Which freebasing technique is better?

[lorentz5]

Which freebasing technique is better (will yield the least toxic product)?

1. For 1g fumerate, add 1g sodium carbonate, add 3ml DI water in glass jar, stir for 5min, and allow time to dry. Obtain hardware acetone and mix it with anhydrous magnesium sulfate, let that sit for a day. Chop up the dry sodium carbonate / fumerate paste into a powder, and add the anhydrous acetone. Mix and then carefully “aspirate” or decant the acetone and let it evaporate. Wash with acetone at least 2x more times and collect the oily/pasty product.

2. For 1g fumerate, add 1g sodium carbonate, add 3ml DI water in glass jar, and an amount of anhydrous magnesium sulfate, and stir until the product appears dry. Prepare anhydrous acetone the same way as above, chop up the paste. Put a coffee filter into a funnel, place the chopped up paste onto the filter, and flush with anhydrous acetone to your heart's delight. Let the acetone evaporate and collect the oily/pasty product.

A. SWIM is concerned because he doesn't like smoking acetone. He knows acetone evaporates 100%, but is there any chance that using either of these methods he'll have an "explosive" breakthrough?

B. When SWIM dissolves the anhydrous magnesium sulfate in his hardware acetone, there should be chunks of hydrous magnesium sulfate on the bottom, that sucked all the moisture from the acetone, right? Well, does SWIM pour the entire contents of his anhydrous acetone mixture (including the precipitate) into his glass jar in method 1 and through his coffee filter funnel in method 2 OR Does he have to first decant the anhydrous acetone, leaving the hydrated magnesium sulfate chunks behind? How can one be sure those chunks don't end up in the final product SWIM ponders.

 

[amor_fati]

Try this: Amor fati's Approach to Freebase Spice Conversion - DMT-Nexus Wiki

Acetone can be dried in much the same manner, with anhydrous MgSO4 in THP; however, if enough MgSO4 is added to this process, the acetone will dry as it passes through. Note that the acetone could simply be slowly evaporated to yield a usable product, rather than following SWIM manual crystallization process, but SWIM prefers to do it manually.

 

[lorentz5]

Try this: Amor fati's Approach to Freebase Spice Conversion - DMT-Nexus Wiki

Acetone can be dried in much the same manner, with anhydrous MgSO4 in THP; however, if enough MgSO4 is added to this process, the acetone will dry as it passes through. Note that the acetone could simply be slowly evaporated to yield a usable product, rather than following SWIM manual crystallization process, but SWIM prefers to do it manually.

Yeah, I had a long look at your tek, I was just asking if I could do it with just a set of filters and no herbal percolater as shown below:

(the => arrow is evaporation)
(Edit: sodium CARBONATE, not sodium bicarbonate ^)

 

[amor_fati]

Coffee filters and funnels are a pain. There are all sorts of HDPE bottles available, from vinegar bottles to spray bottles. Plus with a THP, there's more room for the acetone to sit while filtering. There's really not much need to use the MgSO4 separately from the sodium carbonate/dmt fumarate paste either, though SWIM occasionally dries his acetone in bulk with THP and a larger amount of straight anhydrous MgSO4--this way the MgSO4 can be recycled for reuse later. He does the same with IPA, though that doesn't pertain here.

 

[w0mbat]

lorentz, you can freebase without acetone. You can do it with 99% IPA from the pharmacy, there is no need for any potentially toxic reagents from the hardware store. Here is the tek, credit for it goes to SyZy GyPsY:

What SWIM does is get dmt acetate (any other salt should be fine as well), then redissolve it in a little HOT distilled water.
Then, in an eyedropper bottle, he has the bottle roughly 1/3 of the way filled with this redissolved acetic salt solution... he adds another 1/3 warm saturated sodium carbonate solution. Then he fills the eyedropper bottle the rest of the way up with isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol). He agitates and the layers separate, iso on top. Using the eyedropper he removes the iso layer which contains the freebase alkaloids, then adds more iso and repeats two more times (3x total iso pulls) then combines iso pulls and evaps. There's still a little sodium carbonate residue cuz it's an incomplete separation, but there's much less that there would be if he just evapped the aqueous layer.

Then he uses anhydrous iso to redissolve the alkaloid goo, using a spoon to crush up the insoluble sodium carbonate residue and liberate any molecules trapped in it. He does this 3-4x, filtering to remove sodium carbonate residue, then evaps the iso onto a small amt. of leaf.

He likes this because 1: it's inconscpicuous, and 2: it's easier to handle, and 3: you may get goo using this method. But seriously enhanced leaf is way better than xtls. [\Quote]

You can't get crystals with this tek but it works perfectly for changa. SWIM used this method and tells me that his changa is incredibly potent!

 

[lorentz5]

Coffee filters and funnels are a pain... He does the same with IPA, though that doesn't pertain here.

So SWIM could just mix his fumerate, sodium carbonate, water, anhydrous MgSO4 in a jar, give it 10 min to dry, put it in THP and flush with acetone? Then wait some time for the acetone to evaporate and collect the freebase? Or is the 10 min drying unnecessary?

And, if SWIM wanted to, he could do this manually - by evaporating the acetone in a food dehydrator below 100F, then continuing to add (anhydrous) acetone, then spreading the product and adding drops of acetone... etc (as described in your freebasing tek). I'm guessing SWIY does this manually to make the final product look prettier and firmer and because it takes less time, right?

Would two weeks be enough time for all the acetone to evaporate?

Oh and, if SWIM uses Kleanstrip acetone or crown gallon acetone, evaporates a bit of it and notices no residue, it's ok to use, right?

Also, when assembling THP that SWIY described, SWIY uses cotton balls and no cotton cloth? Doesn't the paste get stuck in the cotton balls and make a big mess?

lorentz, you can freebase without acetone. You can do it with 99% IPA from the pharmacy, there is no need for any potentially toxic reagents from the hardware store. Here is the tek, credit for it goes to SyZy GyPsY:

Ooh, thanks w0mbat. That looks much more appealing, but SWIM wants to try just xtals before changa, but he will definitely keep this in mind

Thanks amor for all your help! SWIM is finally beginning to understand this.

 

[amor_fati]

lorentz, you can freebase without acetone. You can do it with 99% IPA from the pharmacy, there is no need for any potentially toxic reagents from the hardware store. Here is the tek, credit for it goes to SyZy GyPsY:

Both acetone and IPA can cause CNS depression, but SWIM believes that between the two, aspiration of IPA is the only one known to cause fatal chemical pneumonia. Regardless, neither should be taken for granted, but SWIM thinks that if IPA can't crystallize the product, it's likely at greater risk for solvent contamination. Also, kleanstrip contains mostly acetone and only trace amounts of toluene (National Center for Forensic Science), which the human liver can process fairly safely, as SWIM understands it.

Furthermore, acetone is much more volatile, and thus easier to eliminate from product than IPA. The only advantage of changa would be if the herb is actually burned, rather than vaporized, but SWIM would be more worried about the trace amounts of solvent in the oil and herb on top of inhaling all sorts of combustion products largely unaccounted for.

So SWIM could just mix his fumerate, sodium carbonate, water, anhydrous MgSO4 in a jar, give it 10 min to dry, put it in THP and flush with acetone? Then wait some time for the acetone to evaporate and collect the freebase? Or is the 10 min drying unnecessary?

Give the sodium carbonate and fumarate time to react and stirring to help it along. Best to leave it wet for almost an hour before drying with MgSO4. No need to allow it to air dry, the drying process of MgSO4 is purely a physical/mechanical reaction, as it merely locks the water molecules into a crystal lattice--effectively a solid product with the MgSO4. If enough desiccant (MgSO4) is applied with enough stirring, the mixture will dry quite thoroughly. If the acetone does pick up some moisture when it passes through, another pass or two would likely dry it anyway. Dryness isn't a major issue with this process, but it's definitely recommended.

And, if SWIM wanted to, he could do this manually - by evaporating the acetone in a food dehydrator below 100F, then continuing to add (anhydrous) acetone, then spreading the product and adding drops of acetone... etc (as described in your freebasing tek). I'm guessing SWIY does this manually to make the final product look prettier and firmer and because it takes less time, right?

Would two weeks be enough time for all the acetone to evaporate?

Yes to the first paragraph. SWIM can usually slow-evap/airdry product-containing acetone in less than a week.

Oh and, if SWIM uses Kleanstrip acetone or crown gallon acetone, evaporates a bit of it and notices no residue, it's ok to use, right?

Generally no residue means it's quite safe. SWIM uses kleanstrip, but crown you'll have to check here, perhaps: Check what your solvent contains here - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Also, when assembling THP that SWIY described, SWIY uses cotton balls and no cotton cloth? Doesn't the paste get stuck in the cotton balls and make a big mess?

SWIM's general rule of thumb is to use a cloth above the cottonballs for wet limtek extraction in order to increase the surface area of the filter, but SWIM doesn't find it necessary for drytek conversion.

Thanks amor for all your help! SWIM is finally beginning to understand this.

Yeah, no problem. My pleasure.

 

[amor_fati]

SWIM recently simplified his basifying technique, by the way. Many steps are now optional, including the use of heptane.

 

[narmz]

SWIM thinks that if IPA can't crystallize the product, it's likely at greater risk for solvent contamination.

What do you mean here? IPA can crystallize DMT if evapped at room temp. Not sure about others here, but IPA has always evapped cleanly for SWIM, while various types of acetone, including kleanstrip have left behind a residue.

 

[amor_fati]

SWIM thinks that if IPA can't crystallize the product, it's likely at greater risk for solvent contamination.

What do you mean here? IPA can crystallize DMT if evapped at room temp. Not sure about others here, but IPA has always evapped cleanly for SWIM, while various types of acetone, including kleanstrip have left behind a residue.

SWIM hasn't tried IPA, but he was referring to the information posted by w0mbat. SWIM's never known kleanstrip to leave behind a residue.

 

[w0mbat]

if SWIM uses Kleanstrip acetone or crown gallon acetone, evaporates a bit of it and notices no residue, it's ok to use, right?

Maybe, maybe not. There could be trace contaminants left over from the manufacturing process. If you use it, is it likely to kill you tomorrow? No. Will it definitely be 100% free of long-term health effects? Who knows. You can browse the forums and find various perspectives on the matter - from people who say hardware store chemicals are fine to others who say they're poisons - but at the end of the day they're chemicals not meant for human use and you just don't know what they're going to do to you. If you want you could distill hardware store-bought solvents for an added safety margin.

That looks much more appealing, but SWIM wants to try just xtals before changa, but he will definitely keep this in mind

Has SWIY considered using freeze precip from naptha? If I recall correctly, this seemed like a good way of getting highly pure xtals w/ relatively low risk of contamination (out of the teks that use hardware store solvents)

 

[amor_fati]

Has SWIY considered using freeze precip from naptha? If I recall correctly, this seemed like a good way of getting highly pure xtals w/ relatively low risk of contamination (out of the teks that use hardware store solvents)

From SWIM's experience, freeze-precipped crystals from naphtha are about as dirty as they come (as evidenced by their fluffiness and oiliness and the general impurity of naphtha), barring xylene and toluene evaps. Slow crystallized crystals from heptane are likely fairly clean, due to the use a purer solvent and as evidenced by the hardness of their structure.

The way that SWIM crystallizes likely exposes more surface area of the product than most other crystallization techniques due to the constant spreading and scraping, and if only acetone is used, there's practically no way any significant (if any) amount of acetone could be left over.


SWIM really thinks the risk of contaminants is being overstated, considering that analyses of these solvents is available, and their contaminants are known (and in the case of kleanstrip, known to be negligible). It's the solvents themselves that pose the largest threat. When SWIM evaporates IPA, he can smell it everywhere, but he can only smell acetone in direct proximity. Acetone also evaporates much more quickly than IPA. Neither acetone or IPA are meant to be ingested, but both are regularly used in contact with human tissue. Acetone exists in living organisms as a product of biosynthesis, and notably, IPA is metabolized into acetone by the human body.

 

[amor_fati]

Just thought I'd stop in and mention that SWIM's developed a fairly reliable nontoxic conversion method requiring no filters, toxic solvents, or desiccant. The method really only requires an evap dish, sodium carbonate, water, and some scraping tools, and it can be completed within an hour. The tek has been amended to SWIM's nontoxic extraction as well as his approach to freebase conversion on the wiki and in the advanced chemistry forum topic.

 

[lorentz5]

Just thought I'd stop in and mention that SWIM's developed a fairly reliable nontoxic conversion method requiring no filters, toxic solvents, or desiccant. The method really only requires an evap dish, sodium carbonate, water, and some scraping tools, and it can be completed within an hour. The tek has been amended to SWIM's nontoxic extraction as well as his approach to freebase conversion on the wiki and in the advanced chemistry forum topic.

Holy crap, that's an awesome contribution you made there amor! Your freebasing technique is by far the easiest and most detailed! Thanks for making this process so easy to understand for a newbie.

 

[lorentz5]

No acetone SWIM sees... So that makes the tek 100% nontoxic. Although... SWIM wonders, is SWIY's procedure the same as DMT Fumarate to DMT Freebase - DMT-Nexus Wiki except on an evaporating dish instead of a test tube? SWIM noticed that SWIY's final product using the new method looks significantly less pure than his product using acetone/hexane. Why is this AND does SWIY think freebasing with acetone poses a significant health risk that inspired him to remove it?

Also, why does this Nontoxic limonene tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki called a "nontoxic limonene tek" when it uses lye and optionally ammonia? Is this a really old tek of yours amor or something?

with I think a little over 100g NaOH mixed into the water prior to adding it to the rb).

SWIM finds your new tek to much more comprehensive than that ^ one. Plus it has pictures. Do you think the other one should be kept on the teks page?

 

[amor_fati]

No acetone SWIM sees... So that makes the tek 100% nontoxic. Although... SWIM wonders, is SWIY's procedure the same as DMT Fumarate to DMT Freebase - DMT-Nexus Wiki except on an evaporating dish instead of a test tube? SWIM noticed that SWIY's final product using the new method looks significantly less pure than his product using acetone/hexane. Why is this AND does SWIY think freebasing with acetone poses a significant health risk that inspired him to remove it?

That tek greatly inspired SWIM's tek, and he's quite certain that there's a mutual understanding between Infundiblum and SWIM in that matter, but there should probably be a special thanks amended.

The difference between SWIM's and Infundiblum's and SWIM's is that Infund's uses a proper aqueous phase, dispersing the resulting freebase throughout a solution, requiring a great amount of time for it to come back together and crystallize. SWIM's tek aims to keep the product from dispersing as much as possible and relies on it's oily consistency causing it to adhere to the dish. The product remains in a stationary phase when the wash to remove byproduct is performed, due to it's non-polarity and viscosity. One of the drawbacks of the process that Infund pointed out when he developed it, is the difficulty of collecting and recrystallizing the product; SWIM's manual crystallization technique overcomes this limitation.

The color actually isn't so different from the product made using acetone after a bit more drying time (SWIM's product even continues to dry in a small sealed container). SWIM will attach a photo to illustrate this.

While SWIM's always been a bit adamant in his consideration of negligibility of the solvent content of acetone evaped freebase, as well as the health impact, SWIM prefers to reduce his material needs, simplify, and improve the comfort of the process for his household. Ergonomics is SWIM's real concern here, but the potential health benefits are a perk as well. SWIM no longer has to purchase acetone or epsom salt, nor worry about the various implications of their use.

Also, why does this Nontoxic limonene tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki called a "nontoxic limonene tek" when it uses lye and optionally ammonia? Is this a really old tek of yours amor or something?

with I think a little over 100g NaOH mixed into the water prior to adding it to the rb).

SWIM finds your new tek to much more comprehensive than that ^ one. Plus it has pictures. Do you think the other one should be kept on the teks page?

No, that's SyZyGyPSy's (the wiki page links to the original forum post in the reference portion. SWIM just edited the header to make it a bit more clear that it belongs to a certain memeber, as well.). It was among the first limonene teks for DMT if SWIM recalls correctly, but--with all due respect--was perhaps a bit premature. SWIM would still consider this to be one of the early ideas leading to SWIM's own tek (69ron's and Jorkest's methods being a bit closer in nature, however).

Teks are kept on the wiki for archiving purposes, but they are all filtered into the handbook to some degree to form a comprehensive representation of the general extraction community. The teks themselves belong primarily to their creators and are to be represented as such.

SWIM's spent a good deal of time on the wiki, researching the nexus, and on experimentation. He has all of this to thank for the quality and comprehensive nature of his own articles on the wiki. SWIM hopes that other members do the same in the future, as it's quite an educational experience. Frankly, it's a little surprising that many more members haven't taken to some of the endeavors SWIM's undertaken, such as the wiki and nontoxic experimentation. Perhaps SWIM's a bit biased in the matter, but he's quite proud of what he's contributed (and rather enjoying the fruits of progress, as well).

Thanks for the props. SWIM hopes that he's being helpful for yourself and other members, especially newer members.


Edit for the attachment:
Those four chunks to the left were made using SWIM's original drytek THP freebasing method. The one in the middle was made with the nontoxic method. The little one on the far right was made from flakes from those first four by manual recrystallizing with just water. The color difference is really quite minimal, and likely has more to do with the structure of the solids than anything else. Notice those four chunks had originally formed one big chunk, and where they were broken is lighter in color than the smoother outer shell. These chunks are incredibly sturdy, like dry clay, and those four larger ones weigh between half a gram and a gram. SWIM simply cuts off a piece and loads by hand, sometimes weighing, but he generally doesn't bother with weights anymore and has developed a sense for the size of dose.

 

[Bonny]

using acetone/hexane.

Oooh, are they interchangeable in these? I have hexane, but I couldn't get hold of heptane sadly. Was worried I'd have to get hold of some acetone, but the hexane should evap quicker.

With the test tube method, would that work in a jar? Say doing 1g at a time? 100mg seems a very paltry amount.

Also, is 'proper' Sodium Carbonate better then rendered bicarbonate, is there barely any difference? Oh, and can you render it in the microwave? :twisted:

 

[amor_fati]

using acetone/hexane.

Oooh, are they interchangeable in these? I have hexane, but I couldn't get hold of heptane sadly. Was worried I'd have to get hold of some acetone, but the hexane should evap quicker.

IPA and acetone are generally considered as interchangable, but heptane/hexane pull a more limited scope of alkaloids

Also, is 'proper' Sodium Carbonate better then rendered bicarbonate, is there barely any difference?

Sodium carbonate is sodium carbonate, whether made by you or some factory. One issue that has been brought up is that typical store-bought sodium carbonate is no foodgrade, whereas sodium bicarbonate typically is.

 

[Bonny]

Mr Amor Fati, I just did your nontoxic conversion.

How do I know it worked... can I vape it like this, or does it need to be re-x'ed?

It looks very similar to the pics on the wiki page, but it looks very similar to my unconverted but washed fumarate that I scraped up.

Only clue that it worked is my hands got covered in that nasty white fumaric acid coating that you don't notice until you're covered :lol:

I guess I'll just have to suck it and see, but thanks for the tek

 

[amor_fati]

Well SWIM knows it works when he does it, because he can watch the reaction bubble the mixture while the sodium carbonate neutralizes the fumaric acid. He also knows because the oil does not dissolve in the wash water and because the result is waxy. If it doesn't dissolve in water, it's freebase.