Why do almost all teks use so much lye?

[Waspking]

Geniunely wondering why the amount of NaOH used in most teks seems so high to me. Am I missing something here?

I had disappointing results with the STB tek. From 100 grams MHRB I barely had enough to try it once. I did more then 10 pulls and I had to evapourate some of the solvent before seeing crystals. So either my MHRB was no good or the lye may have destroyed some of the DMT, or both.

Been looking into this and I found this very useful bit of info: PKa - DMT-Nexus Wiki I learned about this back when I studied chemistry (I dropped out though), it's called the Henderson-Hasselbach equation. If PKa = pH there's a 50-50 distribution of conjugate base to conjugate acid.
So the PKa of DMT is 8.68. In theory if we have an excess of base solution @ pH 8.68, after the extraction with non polar solvent that equilibrium will re-esablish, so after 6 pulls, assuming 100% extraction efficiency, there would only be a neglicable amount left!

So why would we ever go above pH 10, where we already have a 90-10% distribution of conjugate base to acid? Since we're doing multiple pulls anyway I just don't see the point of using such a high pH. It would probably saponify some of the lipids also, which can cause emulsions. And it can be pretty nasty to work with such a concentrated solution in general.

In fact why not just use sodium carbonate? Since it is used in LLE to break up emulsions quite nicely and will probably prevent them all together.

I guess for STB the large amount of NaOH would help lyse the cell walls though, but there's better ways of doing that. Freeze-thaw cycles for example, pressure cooking, sonication, boiling will all improve yield without damaging our precious alkaloids, assuming DMT is not very sensitive to heat?

Next time I'll just throw it in the pressure steamer and use the A/B tek. After adding the acid I'll filter it so I don't have to deal with the plant matter.

Really curious what you guys think about all this!

 

[fink]

I am certainly one of the least experienced on this topic and have no credentials as a chemist. At the least I can say that with all the A/B teks I have tried, any attempt with a deficiency in NaOH caused lower yields and more stubborn emulsions. Following some of the popular A/B teks listed here as closely as possible has always given fantastic results.

Following the thread so I can learn summit new

 

[Voidmatrix]

If I remember correctly STB tends to use more than A/B and is so high in order to break the maximum amount of DMT out of the plant matter.

Anytime you experience any emulsion, simply heat the soup for a while, circular mixing intermittently.

I also highly doubt that the lye is destroying any DMT.

Good luck!

One love

 

[Hyper Turtle]

Hmm, one hit from 100g MHRB is definitely disappointing. I hope it was a nice hit at least
Normally you should get ca. 250mg+ on the first pull alone. I usually do only 3-6 pulls, for a total yield of nearly 1.5% white crystals.

What solvent did you use, and at what temperature did you do your pulls? Did you agitate the soup/solvent mixture enough?
[EDIT] On that note, while emulsions aren't very fun to deal with, they do maximise the efficiency of your pulls [/EDIT]
If using naphtha / hexane / heptane, heated pulls are much more efficient, but may pull a little more fats too. I do warm to hot pulls, i don't evap any naphtha before freeze precip, and it usually works just fine. If there is nothing precipitating, i can still evap half of the solvent and freeze again.

-

I also think that most teks use too much lye.
In my past extractions, adding more lye also didn't actually help with emulsions - adding salt water did, as did heating and gently rocking the vessel back and forth. Once i added way too much lye, and the saponification became a real problem. Nowadays i simply add lye until the solution turns white, then black, and then i add a little more.

There are teks that use significantly less, eg. Low Lye approach to extacting DMT - analysis of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine in mimosa hostilis root bark - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus which i have used with success.

One thing to keep in mind is that the bark doesn't only have DMT, but also a lot of tannins/tannic acid and other stuff. Many teks also add some vinegar or citric at the start. So we're dealing with a buffer which explains some increase in the amounts required.

Some people here have been using sodium carbonate for extraction, with mixed results. It's certainly worth exploring, but if your goal for the next extraction is to have decent yield, i would postpone that experiment.

If you go for A/B, make sure to not dispose of the bark until you know your yield. I've done A/B's with good results, but i've also done ones where half the yield was still in the 'spent' bark, and i'm not sure why that was. But i kept the bark, and simply proceeded to STB it to get the other half.

Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask on the forum or in the chat when you have questions or difficulties.

 

[Jees]

Hi Waspking,

As said, overkill caustic (say equal weight of the bark) is done to break up cells and avoid emulsions.
Way too much lye have put me in trouble before, it had to be diluted again. I think it's safe to say lye = bark weight is a max. Spice is not destroyed at these levels for sure.

Your low yield makes me wonder about bark quality.

A naphtha pull is imho best done at 50degC (120 degF). At room temp the pull is not effective ime. You can pull at 60degC but now naphtha starts to evap it's lightest components and a little unforeseen temp bump from there and you have risk of flying hot base soup. Naptha can make a flash evap, been there done that. At 50 degC there is a safety margin against flashing up (sudden boil) naphtha.

Boiling in acid first (A/B) can also attack cells when using a good acid, phosphoric acid or citric acid for example. Then collecting your acid boils (and discarding exhausted bark) , then evaping volume to come to a better pulling volume, then base, this has another advantage: more white crystals. The acid treatment enables to deconstruct potentially polymerized alkaloids (goo), at least compared to STB.

Happy trials..

 

[Voidmatrix]

Hi Waspking,

As said, overkill caustic (say equal weight of the bark) is done to break up cells and avoid emulsions.
Way too much lye have put me in trouble before, it had to be diluted again. I think it's safe to say lye = bark weight is a max. Spice is not destroyed at these levels for sure.

Your low yield makes me wonder about bark quality.

A naphtha pull is imho best done at 50degC (120 degF). At room temp the pull is not effective ime. You can pull at 60degC but now naphtha starts to evap it's lightest components and a little unforeseen temp bump from there and you have risk of flying hot base soup. Naptha can make a flash evap, been there done that. At 50 degC there is a safety margin against flashing up (sudden boil) naphtha.

Boiling in acid first (A/B) can also attack cells when using a good acid, phosphoric acid or citric acid for example. Then collecting your acid boils (and discarding exhausted bark) , then evaping volume to come to a better pulling volume, then base, this has another advantage: more white crystals. The acid treatment enables to deconstruct potentially polymerized alkaloids (goo), at least compared to STB.

Happy trials..

To piggyback, it's also my experience to have a more effective set of pulls if everything including the soup is hot.

One love

 

[Waspking]

Thx guys! I'm already seeing alot tips and considerations for increasing yield, which is exactly what I'm after! Although I'm also really interested in the chemistry side of things if that wasn't obvious already

I think my sodium carbonate is out of the question though, it would probably work as an alternative to NaOH, but my NaCO3 seems to have either a detergent or fragrance in it. It's a very old package that says Natrii Carbonas pro foto on it. I guess it used to be my moms, she used to develop her own photos in the past. No idea how I got hold of it, but I used to hoard chems as a child.
I did a practice run on some kratom and I noticed a very slight soapy smell coming from the hot solution. Oh well I guess I'll do a mini a/b to get rid of that. It also made horrible emulsions. Used vinegar as the acid so maybe sodium acetate has something to do with that? Maybe by interacting with certain proteins, IDK just spitballing at this point. But the foamy emulsion certainly reminds me of protein foam.
I used HCl and NaOH on kratom before and it worked great, no emulsions. Kind of experimenting right now to see what would work best. I know there's great teks out there but I'm the kind of person that has to see it to believe it

What do you guys think about extracing the bark with acetone and then evapurating it off? It worked great as a starting point for kratom a/b extraction. I could always dry and save the bark, then do an acid cook later. That would reduce the volume so easier to work with, although it's an extra step.

I also highly doubt that the lye is destroying any DMT.
Good luck!

I sure hope not! Although NaOH can destroy alot more then you would want. I think DMT should be quite stable though, it doesn't seem to have any particularly sensitive groups in its structure. And thank you!

@Homo Trypens
It was alright, but I didn't "break through". May also have had to do something with my method of vaping though.
1.5% holy crap that is alot, thats what I'm after!
I used something similar to naphta. It's a mixture of 6-9 carbon -n, -iso and cyclic alkanes, I used a hot water bath but I didnt monitor temperature. It may have been too low. And not much agitation if I'm honest. Next time I'll use a thermostat and a magnetic stirrer.
I can imagine emulsions increase extracton efficiency but it's a PITA for the sep funnel.

Many teks also add some vinegar or citric at the start. So we're dealing with a buffer which explains some increase in the amounts required.

Thats a good point but the same goes for acid as it does for base, we may not need all that much. There was a tek (cant find it right now) that used 0.0001 M HCl for the acid step. That's just 0,000365 grams of HCl/L!
I'll save the bark next time! Thx for all your tips and insights!

Your low yield makes me wonder about bark quality.

Yeah me too! I'm usually more of a science guy but I've thought that maybe I just wasn't ready for it yet, and that is why I got inferior quality bark.
Next time I'll monitor the temperature, makes alot of sense since that would increase solubility.
Also IMHO I doubt such weak acids would even touch the cellulose of the cell walls. You'd need a strong acid for that. The boiling itself would do a far better job.
Also very interesting how DMT can polymerize. I guess it's because the tertiary amine is more basic then the secondary, so the secondary will get deprotonated first, forming a sort of chain.
Thx for the tips and safety considerations!

tl'dr:
Here's what I'll look out for:
-Break up cell walls by boiling(or pressure cooking)
-More agitation
-Monitor temperature

Thank you all, you guys are awesome!:thumb_up:

 

[Hyper Turtle]

I used something similar to naphta. It's a mixture of 6-9 carbon -n, -iso and cyclic alkanes, I used a hot water bath but I didnt monitor temperature. It may have been too low. And not much agitation if I'm honest. Next time I'll use a thermostat and a magnetic stirrer.

Hmm maybe that solvent isn't well suited for DMT? I'm a bit out of my league there, but going up to 9 sounds a bit heavy, and i think cyclics may hinder freeze precipitation. Maybe someone with more knowledge about solvents can chime in on that...

If i'm right about this, your bark might be good and the majority of your DMT might be still in the solvent. In which case you could backsalt eg. with citric or vinegar.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Nah, I've had great results with even heavier naphtha but at a certain grade recrystallisation becomes an imperative.

But you're right in a way - aromatics (being a special subset of cyclics) completely ruin freeze precipitation beyond a certain, very low percentage. I'm not actually aware of what the freeze precipitation characteristics for something like cyclohexane (and other alicyclics) might be.

 

[Hornetking]

Hey guys it's me, just had to make another accound because I forgot my pass and appearantly misspelled my email adress, so I couldn't recover the account..

Anyways, the solvent I use evapourates rather quick, even though it has some heavier alkanes. But what I could do next time is just dry it completely, then dissolve the freebase in warm acetone or IPA and then recrystallize from there.

But it's good to know that cyclic alkanes could hinder crystallisation, I can imagine that the DMT 'tail' could get trapped as it were, in for example the cyclononane. I never considered that! I guess we all learn something new every day, sometimes even in shorter intervals heheh. Cyclohexane would be too small to have that effect I think, and if it did then toluene and xylene wouldn't be very good options either, but anything larger then cyclohexane could have that effect.

I do have some pentane but I don't like working with it because it's so volatile, so especially at higher temperatures that's gonna be a problem. But it could be another option for recrystallisation.

Thx teachers :thumb_up:

 

[Hyper Turtle]

Hey guys it's me, just had to make another accound because I forgot my pass and appearantly misspelled my email adress, so I couldn't recover the account..

You can hop into chat on weekends and see if you catch The Traveler. He can restore access for you. Or you can just be the Hornetking from now on

Nah, I've had great results with even heavier naphtha but at a certain grade recrystallisation becomes an imperative.

But you're right in a way - aromatics (being a special subset of cyclics) completely ruin freeze precipitation beyond a certain, very low percentage. I'm not actually aware of what the freeze precipitation characteristics for something like cyclohexane (and other alicyclics) might be.

Ah yes aromatics, that was the nasty ones! Good to know heavier naphtha still works.

 

[Jees]

...I used something similar to naphta. It's a mixture of 6-9 carbon -n, -iso and cyclic alkanes...

Does it have a name? CAS number? We might find MSDS data.

 

[Hornetking]

There's no CAS number on the bottle, it does have EC no. 920-750-0. From there I was able to find CAS 64742-49-0.

I weighed 100 ml in order to determine it's density. It weighs in at 72 grams exactly for 100 ml. So it seems somewhat heavy. It's probably a mixture as the EC no suggests, but ofc it's impossible to determine the exact compsition just by the density.

It's called wasbenzine, it translates to washing gasoline. It's often used to clean oil and grease, similar to what naphta would be used for. It evapourates clean and leaves no oily residues. It's sold in supermarkets since it's often used for oil and grease stains on clothing. It usually sits on the shelf right next to the laundry detergents. In the past they sold tetrachloroethylene for that purpose lol, the stuff drycleaners use.

Edit: next time I'll get some n-heptane, that should work. Hexane is monitored here for some odd reason while heptane isn't, they can be used for the same purpose so does anyone know why that may be?

 

[Jees]

The wasbenzines where I live are perfectly suitable for crystallization in freezers. This is a typical description to be found on different brands of wasbenzine:

hydrocarbons C6 - C7 (doesn't matter if going to C9)
N-alkanes
isoalkanes
cyclics

I've never found wasbenzine without the mentioning of the cyclics (aromatics) but then they never state how much. I tend to believe it's neglectable since it works, and if not neglectable I suppose they get 'saturated' in first use and since they never let go of their alkaloids in the freezer, from there on they stay as such (loaded) and will not interfere anymore when re-using the naphtha. Does this make sense? <-- Q for the lab rats.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

cyclononane

You'd be exceedingly unlikely to find any cyclononane in your naphtha. The C9 alicyclics would be comprised almost entirely of alkylated cyclohexanes of various kinds, with a vanishingly small proportion of alkylated cyclopentanes and even less of dimethylcycloheptanes and ethylcycloheptane (if any).

I'd still be very much inclined to suggest that it's the aromatics [in the chemistry sense of the word] (alkylated benzene derivatives like toluene, xylenes, ethylbenzene and so on) that would have a far greater impact in inhibiting freeze precipitation because their electronic properties, specifically because of the conjugated benzene ring interacting with the indolic portion of the DMT molecule.

I vaguely recall some report of freeze precipitation from cyclohexane which I would have read in passing and years ago - if I indeed recall correctly - but like I say, I'm not confident of that as hard data. What I do feel is that alicyclics should freeze precipitate just as well as any other aromatic-free naphtha.

[EDIT: be sure not to confuse 'benzine' and benzene - they are two different things.]