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why do so many dmt users believe in 2012?

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lbeing789 said:
With all respect, you can be optimistic or realistic or whatever, but it is just too vague, and too open ended, I mean, the idea that people will "wake up" I mean, that's just way too broad a prediction, catch all predictions we can't even check if they actually worked out... I mean, 2012 can come and go, and people will be able to point to anything as an example of people waking up. I dont see how a prediction from an ancient culture makes it valid, my original point was that every doomsday prediction has come from someone in the past, regardless of how far you go back, they've all been wrong... and I see no reason to give this prediction anymore credence than any other... I mean, I've heard people say it's the end of the mayan calender, but what does that even mean? all of our calenders end.. that doesnt denote anything special.... and going back to the original point, this is an ancient non-prediction, they havent actually told us what will happen... it's all a bit silly I'm sorry.
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You didn't gather enough information on this topic.
I even understand your disinterest.. because all of this hoaxes in the past just trying to scare people.

Even the people who were actual mayan offspring tell about a sort of "change" humanity will have to go through. This change will happen almost automatically because of this special constellation of heavenly bodys (i mean planets etc).

You know it's not just a date, it's an astronomical happening!
 
lbeing789 said:
realistically the answer to the question is probably Terence McKenna, who we all love because of his beautiful writing and lectures, he was a big advocate of DMT, and I'm guessing most of us come across 2012 whilst researching Terence McKennna.
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I enjoyed McKenna as a scholar of words only, in that I think of him as I would a really good book and a pretty good guy roled into one.

Also I don't buy the 2012 thing. But I'd also like to say that I haven't researched it in any great depth. However from what I have read about the physical occurences, there's nothing in my mind that could draw a conclusion as the way it evidently has been in many "2012 believers"
 
I dont necessarily believe in 2012..well I dont bother to worry about it either way really...BUT I do think there is something to the idea of the ingression into novelty..

It makes perfect sense that things get more and more complex until it hits a epoch..a point of condencing all that information into a smaller package more esily seen as one thing, and that things are different after that point...maybe it happens slowly mayeb it happesn quickly who know...but it makes sense that it could happen.
 
lbeing789 said:
Touche Guevara said:
lbeing789 said:
I think it makes complete sense for psychedelic users to believe things in general more so than others because it's the nature of the experience, DMT is extremely visual, SWIM has had religious experiences, still don't believe they're real but at least I'd have a reason for believing it, I mean you wouldn't be acting completely on faith...and I have a lot more respect for that than most things... but yeah, to a larger point, it can be hard not to get carried away with it because we all know you see some crazy stuff.
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A lot of philosophers questioned reality based on the idea that they could possibly be hallucinating. Descartes, for example, eventually settled on the idea that the only certainty he had was that he existed. He allowed that a demon could be tricking him into experiencing the world, but if that was the case then he had to exist to be tricked, leading him to the famous saying "I think, therefore I am."

It seems backwards for someone who knows he is hallucinating to give more credence to things seen during this state, as opposed to less. Extraordinary claims such as "there are entities which humans can only detect interact with when in a certain neurological state caused by ingesting DMT" require extraordinary evidence. If DMT users started being able to communicate over vast distances by way of hyperspace, or were otherwise able to make useful predictions about the world based on things seen while under the influence of spice, then I would be greatly interested. As it stands, just because something seems real does not make it so.
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I wouldn't say anything is real or not real... what is real or not is relative based on it's usage, whats useful to me.... but I'm not gonna get into that discussion because it's kinda dull at this point, and I think most philosophy is suspciously vague... I don't know what you mean by it being backwards to give more credence to something seen during a psycadelic state... I think you're missing an obvious point, and I think you're expecting a certain conclusion to "believing" your visuals... I think you said it yourself, we don't know whats real therefore you cannot give less credence to something because your on something, some would argue the straight world is not "real" and the things you see when you high are... I don't think that , but its easy to argue that point... I've already gone too far into that.. my point is simply that if you were to strictly to believe your own senses and experiences ["I'll believe it when I see it"] then it is not unreasonable to give more credence to things you've experienced, even in a psycadelic state...

An example of that for me is the religious experience on DMT, noone said anyone believed it was anything more than it was, a hallucination, but I can give credence to it because I've experienced it, I now believe the religious experience is real, that does not mean the experience is anything more than a mental apparation.
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I want to say that I operate under the assumption that reality exists. Even if it may not, that belief has enabled me in the past to make useful predictions about the future, so I am going to keep believing it. If there are 10 people in a room, and one eats mushrooms and sees the walls morphing while the others do not, would you say that there is an equal chance of the walls having been breathing and the walls not having been breathing? I think that if I saw something while on mushrooms that I would not believe to be possible while sober, then I would attribute that phenomenon to a hallucination rather than let it override my existing belief structure.
 
^except that what you see in normal reality is only a chemical indiced approximation..just as what you see when on psychedelics in a chemical induced approximation..or more a chemically induced angle or perspective...

I think that normal brain chemistry is just what we have evolved into becasue it is essential for us to view reality that way so that we can operate on a physical-survival circuit..taking care of food, shelter, securing our environments etc.. but it is just an approximation of reality that we see to get certain tasks done..

When we take DMT for example we just see another level, another approximation or angle of reality..from where new taks can be carried out, like spiritual or psychological work for instance..or maybe something differnt who knows..
 
fractal enchantment said:
^except that what you see in normal reality is only a chemical indiced approximation..just as what you see when on psychedelics in a chemical induced approximation..or more a chemically induced angle or perspective...

I think that normal brain chemistry is just what we have evolved into becasue it is essential for us to view reality that way so that we can operate on a physical-survival circuit..taking care of food, shelter, securing our environments etc.. but it is just an approximation of reality that we see to get certain tasks done..

When we take DMT for example we just see another level, another approximation or angle of reality..from where new taks can be carried out, like spiritual or psychological work for instance..or maybe something differnt who knows..
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Fair point. Entheogens are definitely promising in the areas of psychiatry, self-help, etc. However, it stands that if you see a vision of something happening while on DMT, that doesn't make it any more or less likely to happen unless you manage to create a self-fulfilling prophecy (seeing yourself fail a test, getting anxious and then failing the test, for example). So we can say that psychedelic visions do not enable us to make useful predictions about the world.
 
fractal enchantment said:
^except that what you see in normal reality is only a chemical indiced approximation..just as what you see when on psychedelics in a chemical induced approximation..or more a chemically induced angle or perspective...

I think that normal brain chemistry is just what we have evolved into becasue it is essential for us to view reality that way so that we can operate on a physical-survival circuit..taking care of food, shelter, securing our environments etc.. but it is just an approximation of reality that we see to get certain tasks done..

When we take DMT for example we just see another level, another approximation or angle of reality..from where new taks can be carried out, like spiritual or psychological work for instance..or maybe something differnt who knows..
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The main question is: Are these realities as valid and real as the "common" reality?
Or maybe some state of mind under influence of entheogens might be even more real then reality?

These are questions nobody can answer to.

My point of view is, that these "rooms" which open up under the influence of DMT for example are part of reality! I experience mostly teachings.

I did not experience a jump to other worlds or some sort of visiting other worlds like the one we have.

Yet I think this is possible.

If you make an astral voyage under the influence of any psychedelic I actually believe this is THE real REALITY!
 
People want more than a life and a death. This is nothing to be ashamed of it is a simple fact of psychology and a evolutionary trait that has allowed us to progress this far. They want to believe in something more than themselves, they do not want to confront the fact that there is nothing more. They do not want to take full responsibility for there destiny. They want to believe a higher power will guide them, I to ask why?

To me the our existence is nothing short of a evolutionary miracle we have made amazing progress since leaving the forests of Africa to spread across the entire earth. To me that is all I need to be fascinated and memorized the TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION!!!

The scientific method is my religion, its simple steps can be carried out by anyone who can devise a hypothesis and preform a proper experiment. Science empowers me to be my own "god" find my own truth and be able to prove it. Until this test is run everything is just speculation. No matter how complex and well thought out it may be.

So the experiment is under way we await 2012 to collect our data and bring our experiment to its conclusion. We will then chuckle about the result just like I chuckled at the year 2000 folks who stocked basements with beans and rice. Maybe we should all just stock up on beans and rice and forget about the calendar. Every today and every tomorrow could be the real DOOMSDAY.

My negative hypothesis is that we will die slowly on earth just as we evolved. Hopefully a few or many humans will have already departed from the earth by that time and we will survive as a human species.

Yes pseudo science(just like religion/good intent but destructive) is not productive because it promotes erroneous beliefs in the uneducated masses and slows the progress of science. A science that will someday ensure all humanity has three nutritious meals a day. A Science to cure human disease, A Science that will allow all to contribute to the human collective. So I would say to all get a education you can go to school or merely study and read on your own. FUCK SOCIETY'S BULLSHIT since when are the ignorant masses solving proublems or making new discoveries? They are not, they simply cloud and obscure the light humanity seeks.

Whats the old proverb Mama used to say?
"Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see"
Thanx for that mom! You are correct about the "sticks and stones that break my bones" as well

If I could just convince them of the truth in the words of Jim Morrison.

"The whole worlds a savior who could ever ever ever ask for more."
"Do you remember and will you stop"
"The pain"
"There will never be another one like you"

PEACE
MV
 
Magicvenom,
i really liked reading your posting.
But seriously, we are not just another bunch of animals.

You have absolutely no proof, that there is no faith! Actually you can just claim, that there is no faith and no guidance.
Some people look into the future. They see things before they actually happen.
This is a fact.

I see that there is faith!
A human being is supposed to grow. Not only contributing to humankind, but evolving his conciousness which is actually a contribution on a higher level.
Of course you have to follow your heart, and this will be your destiny!
 
Gentlemen this is an excellent conversation, please keep it up.

We need to be careful about the word "reality."

Reality is 110% defined by your singular perception of the moment.
If you are on a mad Spice trip getting raped by an alligator, your reality is getting raped by an alligator. If you're looking at a radar screen that shows a surprise invasion fleet of Japanese dive bombers, your reality is likely in denial, and you see an equipment glitch until the bombs actually drop.

There can be no "objective reality" independent of an observer, it is a function of perception. This is the ultimate lesson of spice. therefore, if one "knows" y2k to be the end of the world, it is. Same for 2012.

This is a comon issue called the Subjective-Objective Problem


Also, my shameless 2012 SHE plug: 2012 SHE to Welcome the 14th Baktun? - SHE - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
(provides links to some 2012 background)
:d
 
The idea that there is no objective reality is silly. If I'm not looking at my cat, I don't assume that she no longer exists. It's true that our perceptions determine our experience of reality, but reality itself? Matter and energy exist whether a human is perceiving them or not.

Although if reality is an illusion, then I'm arguing with myself anyway.
 
Mr_DMT said:
Magicvenom,
i really liked reading your posting.
But seriously, we are not just another bunch of animals.

You have absolutely no proof, that there is no faith! Actually you can just claim, that there is no faith and no guidance.
Some people look into the future. They see things before they actually happen.
This is a fact.

I see that there is faith!
A human being is supposed to grow. Not only contributing to humankind, but evolving his conciousness which is actually a contribution on a higher level.
Of course you have to follow your heart, and this will be your destiny!
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Thank you, I never have or will proclaim my opinions to be fact or some thing others should follow. They are just expressions of my personnel mythology and are ment to describe my experience and provoke thought in others. I have no absolute believes in anything nor have I ruled out possibilities.

It all goes back to the sane question is the brain conciseness? Its conciseness lost at the death of the body?
I am like the old Zen master who tells you nothing is real and then points to the UNDENIABLE beauty of a small creek running thru the bamboos as sparrows jump rapidly branch to branch.

PEACE
MV

PS I do NOT consider myself a Zen Buddhist I consider my self as nothing.:lol:
 
I'm certain that death is not the end of "YOU".
You will go and create another body for "yourself".
Some scientiests even tried to weighten this part which is eternal.
They weightened people before they die and after they died!
I think it was about 20 gram lost :)

Don't know if this can be considered as scientific evidence :)

Maybe you have to be parted from your body conciously once!
I think everybody who does make such an experience will become a knower (NOT a believer ;) )
 
Touche Guevara said:
The idea that there is no objective reality is silly. If I'm not looking at my cat, I don't assume that she no longer exists. It's true that our perceptions determine our experience of reality, but reality itself? Matter and energy exist whether a human is perceiving them or not.
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Good example.
When you close your eyes the cat does exist, but only in your mind as an object permanence illusion--just like watching a movie (which is just a bunch of still pictures). If you aren't directly sensing the cat, it dosn't exist.
(even if you ARE directly sensing the cat it may not "exist," but that's another bag of marbles, see: Meditations on First Philosophy)

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, it doesn't exist until you find it.
😉
 
Mr_DMT said:
I'm certain that death is not the end of "YOU".
You will go and create another body for "yourself".
Some scientiests even tried to weighten this part which is eternal.
They weightened people before they die and after they died!
I think it was about 20 gram lost :)

Don't know if this can be considered as scientific evidence :)

Maybe you have to be parted from your body conciously!
I think everybody who does make such an experience will become a knower (NOT a believer ;) )
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If you can prove that 20grams in a proper experiment I know of I guy that will give us a MILLION dollars. I will split it with you 50/50. PM me with info I need money to start the MV Institute a non profit corporation that serves all Humanity.:)

I never proclaim my self to true or false. I exist in a non dual manner that encompassed everything....and nothing:)

I judge no one nor do I dismiss there opinions.

PEACE
MV
 
how do you KNOW that when you close your eyes the cat exists?..its all assumption..well grounded assumption:) ..but still assumption.

Thats what keeps things interesting..we assume all types of things..
 
So what about the idea of increasing complexity?..and glass ceiling or epoch leading to compression? this makes a whole lot of sense..especially with the level of increasing technological advance in our time..seems progression usually works that way..
 
Watcher and the object are connected inseparably!
This is quantum physics.

There has to be a conciousness to perceive the reality.

My view of the world is about like this:
We exist on different levels. From Soul over Body and some levels in between.

Different expressions of the original information / lightbody of ourselves.

We perceive only the material world trough our bodies.
The other levels are accessable either trough meditation or drugs.

Of course we perceive the whole reality at any time, but only few drops of it come to our ordinary conciousness.

So, reality depends on your being.
You decide your reality, and therefore: YOU are the creator of your reality.

Problem is still: Does reality exist without an perceiver?
I think, that reality can't exist without conciousness to perceive it!
Because, if nobody is there to perceive it - There will be no reality for anybody :)
 
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