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working with empathogens, MDMA etc..

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jamie

jamie

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I would like here to engage in a discussion around the wider family of empathogens, but especially in relation to MDMA. MDMA is one of my favorite psychedelics(I do consider it a psychedelic empathogen) but there is not really much discussion on different methods of using it, and the results of these approaches. Many people have abused it and it get's a lot of negative attention. Thankfully due to people like those involved with MAPS, that image is changing. MDMA has been a real blessing in my life and a true medicine, especially over the last year.

I will start with this article for you to read..

 
which is the best way to explore MDMDA? Party? Alone in your home? What do you think?

I never did alone, always in party. So is something i go for it.
 
I'll bite.

MDMA is one of my favorite medicines, the first time I took it was truly life-changing in every possible sense of the expression. I find it a magical compound, like many others do.

However, the experience is, IME, pretty much always the same. The truly revolutionary time for me was the first one, many years ago. All other experiences are simple variations of the common themes that the original experience presented to me.

It is a beautiful lesson indeed, but to me at least, this makes MDMA rather monochromatic. This is not to bash it, as indeed I still engage with it 1-2 times a year (at most - I get the blues for days in varying intensities depending on several factors, but even the best case scenario is not without trouble, for me) .. but truly, at this point, it is more of an "guaranteed to have fun, introspect at a deeper level than normal, and feel extremely good" guarantee. It never goes south nor does it change much.


Personally I've found that Mescaline is much more powerful, just as empathogenic, much deeper, and most important of all, does not deplete my serotonin the way MDMA does.

4-FA is a decent enough alternative which IME has 0 comedown effects, at least at the moderate doses with which I've experimented with. But the safety profile is unknown, it's relatively new, so experiment at your own risk.



tl;dr mescaline > mdma for happy euphoric loved-up times, and lasts twice as long
 
lobo said:
which is the best way to explore MDMDA? Party? Alone in your home? What do you think?

I never did alone, always in party. So is something i go for it.
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MDMA alone is amazing. Take an inspiring mini-book, something with quotes, a notebook to write, and some beautiful music. I've done it like this outdoors in a quiet forest, and it was truly beautiful. All the energy was channeled into deep introspection and awareness, not having anyone around did not detract in the slightest from the experience.

But -- as I wrote above, to me it's more of a once-or-twice-a-year-at-most thing, so I prefer to "burn my shots" with other likeminded people rather than alone. But I am happy that I got to try it alone.
 
I dont usually work with MDMA anymore but I used to work with it tons... Had some very deep healing sometimes, though there is something about MDMA that makes it hard to integrate some of the insights sometimes (I'll get to this later). I mostly work with San Pedro now which I think has some similarities, though also a few huge differences....

I think MDMA especially can be good for healing relationships. Between a couple, friends, family - any relationship. Two people who love each other but dont get along lately? Have them take MDMA together in a private and comfortable safe setting - they will figure that shit out!

I once had this idea based on something I did once, but thinking it could be good for others.... Basically get maybe 4 people together who are close and want to be closer and who also want to heal some childhood or family issues. The 4 people sign up for 4 nights so that each person has one night focused on them. Each night one person is the focus while the other 3 support and pamper them. Include activities like going through childhood and family photos while that person shares the story of their life - get into the personal things, the good and the bad. Then other 3 people can do nice things for them like massage (hot stone massage is great with psychedelics and very easy to perform - easier then regular massage for untrained people). Maybe include some activities from their childhood. Things like saunas or foot soaks, hot tubs or baths, essential oil diffusers ect..... Really talk things out and pamper the person physically at the same time - powerful combo with MDMA.

One thing I noticed with MDMA though that you have to watch out for it the come down or the waves of the experience.... MDMA makes you so happy and feel good, and then sometimes there are these times of dread when that intense feeling fades suddenly. I have seen this interrupt healing sometimes - you can realize how much you love someone you've been neglecting and be inspired in all these ways to reach out to them, then suddenly that all gets washed away in those feelings of loss/dread when the MDMA gets weird. This can be balanced if you know it is coming and anticipate it - use right dosage and time your activities during the experience well....

There is also a larger potential for abuse with MDMA then with some other psychedelics too. I think moderation is important.

I still prefer San Pedro over MDMA for therapy though - I think it has the emotional and empathic parts, but a little less intense and "fake" feeling (sometimes MDMA feels very real and deep and sometimes it feels a bit shallow). Also easier to integrate and it has this deeper spiritual force to it which I dont find in MDMA. Both can have their time and place though.

Lobo - I dont think alone or at a party is best with MDMA. I think a small intentional group is the best way to work with it if your goal is healing or deeper connection with others. My opinion based on experience with all 3 ways. If your goal is to party, then I guess at a party would be best, but I personally cannot do things like that anymore - psychedlics in a party setting actually mess up a lot of the work I do healing wise.
 
lobo said:
which is the best way to explore MDMDA? Party? Alone in your home? What do you think?

I never did alone, always in party. So is something i go for it.
Click to expand...

I take MDMA together with my friends at electronic music festivals or single night electronic dance music events. I don't know what the best way to use it is, as I have not tried all the ways and I have had under 10 experiences total.

The best way for myself to use MDMA, that I have experienced however, is to take it with the intent to just be open to the real experience of life, here and now. I don't want to go out there on MDMA, I want to be right here. I take supplements before and after, eat well, try to get lots of sleep the night before as I usually stay up all night dancing or laying around in cuddle puddles. I prefer outdoor electronic music festivals because there is so much space to walk around, lay in the grass, wander the visionary art galleries and art installations and meet other people sharing a similar experience etc. MDMA has been hugely beneficial for me in smaller packed indoor dance parties in the city, but I look forward to the 2 large festivals of summer, far far from the city where I consume MDMA as a sacrament with my larger family. The following night at a festival will be a fully psychedelic dose of mescaline. This has been the best way I have used MDMA.

The morning after MDMA I begin microdosing cacti or mescaline, at levels high enough to feel but only threshhold(unless at a festival, where I sleep and maybe do a yoga workshop in the afternoon and then consume a psychedelic dose of cacti extract. Whatever that dose is for you, is your dose. I will continue dosing mescaline or cacti this way for a number of days or through the week following the MDMA experience. This is far superior IME to taking 5htp. Mescaline and cacti alkaloids are, like MDMA, empathogenic and help to hold onto and anchor much of the insight and revelations of the MDMA state, which I find akin to something like an Edenic paradise. With mescaline used in this way after MDMA, there is no emotional downtime.

A large dose of mescaline sometime in the weeks following the MDMA experience has been hugely beneficial. I view MDMA as a process, not a one night stand.

I would welcome any discussion of other empathogens such as 2cb, MDA, MMDA or 5-MeO-MiPT etc as well. I have not yet worked with 2cb but I will be meeting with it next summer.
 
Also with dosing MDMA...I personally am not into the low doses. I prefer 120mg of MDMA and no less. I don't want half that dose, I don't want 70mg etc. I personally find that with MDMA half the dose is half the experience and with MDMA nothing compares really to the full on empathic opening that it can produce. Half doses take me half way there.

When I did try a dose of around 70mg(eyeballed from 120mg) the real core of the experience that is so opening and powerfully healing for me was sort of lurking in the background. I say with MDMA, start at 120mg. The onset rushing can be so strong it can bring you to your knees, but MDMA is so ecstatic that any negative emotions or feelings brought to the surface, or the feeling of being overwhelmed, pass quickly. With the repressed emotional content, it can be good for it to surface. Doses too low are less effective at really allowing a person to move through repressed trauma IME.

Keeping the dosing down to once every 3 months or less, is the ideal regime suggested by Shulgin. In the meantime, opt for mescaline or another empathogen of your choice that lends itself to more regular use.

When combining MDMA with another psychedelic, like LSD or psilocybin, then cut down the dose of both the MDMA and w/e psychedelic you pair it with until you are familiar with the effects of the combination. They tend to amplify each other IME.
 
I have to say MDMA and 2CB is one of my favourite combos to go out dancing to psychedelic music (chunky progressive psy usually). I saw Vibrasphere for the second time last weekend and I got really emotional when he played "Ensueno Moring Mix". I have been on such deep journeys with psilocybin while listening to that song, I was transported into a VERY blissful place when it came on.

I sometimes like smoking DMT the day after taking MDMA, as I feel like it eliminates the "mid-week blues". I'm not sure exactly why that is biologically, but it definitely helps the come-down. I luckily haven't completely over done it with MD and want to keep it that way. When at a festival or party it can be a nice platform to launch off of when taking psychedelics. Specially if in a slightly crowded club.

Oh and I LOVE mescaline! It is definitely my favourite phenethylamine.
 
Mdma the first time I took it was truly life changing in the absolute literal sense. I took my dose while a friend of mine consumed an absurd amount of lsd . He was no longer around to speak so I basically spent the whole experience inwardly reflecting. At the time I had a major coke problem and let me tell you I resolved all of that in them few hours.

Went home went to sleep and didn't touch coke again for along time and have never had issue with it since. However while I still love and value mdma to this day I can say I've never had a experience that came anywhere close to that first one. The profound sense of love for everything the amazing body high none of that has ever came close to being what it was that first trip. In fact I find mdma can actually be quiet odd feeling now when I dose it and actually weird me out a little and have a rather displeasant body load at times .

I always test my stuff and I never get anything but top grade mdma. And as some one already said I literally go from feeling pretty good to just utter shit in no time these days. It's like one minute I'm feeling it pretty good and the next I feel cracked out , brain dead , physically ill and just want to crash. It's also very short lived. These days.

I really would like to hear what people of the nexus have to say about 2cb as I've been holding some for four months or so and have yet to try it as I hear so many differing reports that I don't know what to expect and I really don't want that nasty speedy body load while tripping really hard that for some reason I feel it may bring about.

MDMA is great stuff though. At least the first three times I did it it was . now it's pretty much useless unless I jsut want to vibe out to music all night as the lesson it teaches is the same time and time again if it even has a lesson and as was already said it can feel some what empty or without any substance. Ad if its missing something or its forced.

That fits ttime though. Omg I've never had a sense of euphoria and ecststy since then. It was kind blowing I could not believe how amazing I felt. And how in touch with my self I was.
 
I find MDMA extremely valuable for working on relationships and building emotional intimacy. While it has many "fun" side effects, sounds, lights, good feels, using this substance to party or dance seems like an absolute waste to me. It's a golden opportunity to connect with someone, and seems ideal for intimate relationships. MDMA therapy with any person dear to you is like a state of the union address for that relationship.

Shulgin said to take it no more than once a season; I wouldn't take it more than three times a year (my personal sweet spot).

I've been keeping a journal for myself and another, recording our notes about supplements. I am a HUGE advocate of supplementing before, during, and after. It shocked me in my initial experiments about how tangible the effects of supplementation are... and that experience really drives home the importance of using supplements for neuroprotection.

I will take .075mg MDMA with a booster of .015, which makes the roll last about 5 hours, a wonderful length. (Most take double what I take and report the same results; I'm sensitive.)

Prior to the roll (an hour or two before?) I will take 100mg of chelated magnesium (I need more of magnesium citrate to get the same results), 100mg of CoQ10, and knock back Vitamin C in 500mg intervals throughout the day and after. This I do every time and these supplements are awesome.

5htp at the end of the roll is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. Both friends and I have concluded that the weird, up-and-down emotional aspects of the hangover are negated by 5htp. I take one in the morning and one in the afternoon for the week following. One friend supplemented for two days, stopped, and reported feeling a bit crappy. Sources I've found recommend supplementing with 5htp 5-7 days post roll.

There is a slight risk of serotonin syndrome if 5htp is taken BEFORE MDMA, so please take care to only do this at the end... when you know you're down.

ALA (alpha lipoic acid) works wonders for negating the PHYSICAL downsides to MDMA, during and after the roll. Ideally, I would supplement ALA just before the roll, in conjunction with the CoQ10. ALA has a short half-life (about an hour), so it is best to redose during the roll.

If I don't take ALA, I stammer with words when I'm rolling, I feel nauseous for about two days after and very exhausted. It is SHOCKING how much the ALA negates these effects.

My companions take about 200mg of ALA and are fine.

ALA, however, can cause muscle tension in some. The one roll I took ALA, my chest was extremely stiff, and it felt like someone had overinflated it with a bicycle pump. (And I got weird hiccups with diaphragm discomfort.) While all the other physical side effects of the MDMA were negated, I reacted strongly to the ALA and would NEVER take it at that dose again.

The internets reports other people using the supplement for workout purposes occasionally encounter some weird feelings in the chest. This can also be exacerbated by the CoQ10 and MDMA.

I rolled again without the ALA, to the same physical detriment of rolling before without ALA--exhaustion, headaches, decreased speech capacity. But, without the ALA, I experienced no chest discomfort. Apparently, sensitive people should be safe around the 25-50mg range for ALA. Next time, I am going to break up 25mg into three or four small doses throughout the roll, to see if I can achieve some level of neuroprotection without any of the unwanted side effects (chest tension).

My speech is routinely impaired without the use of ALA, even for the day or two following.

There are not many emotionally therapeutic gains above the .2 mark for MDMA. Eating a gram a night to party seems reckless and insane, given the excitotoxic side effects.

I also strongly recommend to kit test and verify that what you're taking is pure.

Taking MDMA with and without supplements is literally like night and day. I strongly encourage everyone to stay safe and invest in some supplements. MDMA can be incredibly therapeutic in the right settings, but it does come at a physical cost and it makes no sense not to do everything in your power to protect your body.

My MDMA rant. 😁
 
ms_manic_minxx said:
I find MDMA extremely valuable for working on relationships and building emotional intimacy. While it has many "fun" side effects, sounds, lights, good feels, using this substance to party or dance seems like an absolute waste to me. It's a golden opportunity to connect with someone, and seems ideal for intimate relationships. MDMA therapy with any person dear to you is like a state of the union address for that relationship.
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This is how I've always used it, by myself or with someone very close, although the amount of times that I have I could count on one hand. It creates a very powerful experience. Very useful stuff.

I've never used it at a music festival/concert/club/etc. I've never had enough to use like that.
 
The most beautiful moments of my life have happened while dancing on MDMA and looking into my friends eyes and knowing that she knew what I was knowing, and then looking around and knowing that everyone else knew what we were knowing, and them knowing it. MDMA is fun like that. It's nice to sit and just have a night with MDMA and yourself, or another person...but for me what I needed was a big huge furry bear onesie, LED's, some tenticles(don't ask), REAL friends and a solid longwalk set.



That's been the recipe for the best nights of my life, and it's about to all line right back up on halloween.
 
Can someone suggest a good length of time between dosing LSD and MDMA? Im going to a halloween event put on by my favorite festival and they are going all out this year...so I kinda want to do the same. I have good LSD and MDMA I just don't know how long after I eat the LSD is ideal for dosing the MDMA. Im taking 125 mg of MDMA with either half or a full blotter.
 
I've been re-exploring the phenethylamines lately so this is probably a fairly relevant place for me to integrate and organize my thoughts a bit in the form of a nexus post.

I was first introduced to MDMA, like many are these days, in the form of colorful little ecstasy pills amidst the thumping bass and sweaty dance floors of the rave scene. The global dance music scene serves as an initiatory device for an astounding number of our young people today. Given the general lack of education, quality control, and safety infrastructure, and the propensity towards immodest and unsafe substance use practices in these environments, I generally don't think this approach is the most beneficial route of exploration. That said, my time submerged in the rave culture was absolutely one of the most magical and beautiful times in my life, albeit incredibly hedonistic and self-destructive.

Truth be told, I've always cherished the smaller intimate get-togethers over the big parties, raves, and festivals. A few close friends together in a space where you can really talk and connect and explore one other. This imo is where MDMA really shines, the depth of bonding that can be established is really quite remarkable.

It hasn't been until recently that I've really started working with MDMA in a more therapeutic capacity and using it to turn inward and do personal exploration rather than to go out dancing or to party with my friends or what have you. It is great at facilitating this kind of inner exploration process and is really a top notch therapeutic tool. However I generally feel like without a therapist to work with I get more out of a session with a true psychedelic than I do with MDMA.

When rave culture was first taking hold in the early 90's there was a strong focus on the initiatory aspect and great care was taken to create spaces to facilitate transformative experiences. This is something that seems much less prevalent in modern rave culture. Of course the festival scene has largely filled this gap and has been serving as a great catalyst and container for these kind of transformative experiences, but we still have a long way to go in terms of integration and the creation of supportive infrastructure for these experiences.

In the end, as ever and always, it all comes down to your intentions. The tool itself is inherently neutral, it's all in what you use it to accomplish.

jamie said:
Can someone suggest a good length of time between dosing LSD and MDMA? Im going to a halloween event put on by my favorite festival and they are going all out this year...so I kinda want to do the same. I have good LSD and MDMA I just don't know how long after I eat the LSD is ideal for dosing the MDMA. Im taking 125 mg of MDMA with either half or a full blotter.
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I personally like to take them at the same time so they rise and peak together, though it can be nice to roll onto or down from an LSD trip.

I'd recommend taking the whole blotter, much like you found with MDMA, half the dose is only half the experience; better to take the whole thing.
 
you gotta come to shamb with me next year, dreamer :)

Maybe I will take the whole blotter then, thanks..unless I opt for 4acoDMT and MDMA..that's my other option.

Oh also, if i drink ayahuasca friday night is it still okay to take MDMA saturday night? I know it should be fine but has anyone else done it? I stopped using ayahuasca and any analogues for the last 10 months until this week so I do not have experience with using them in close proximity.

I work 50 hours a week so timing for ayahuasca is important atm.
 
A decade of desert crawling def has me longing for some forest time. I'll make it up there for shamb sooner or later.

4-aco-dmt is a solid choice as well, it can tend to leave you floored for a while though.

You're really pushing it taking an amphetamine within a day of harmalas. Yeah I think it "should be" alright, but I wouldn't ever take them that close together. Personally I would wait a few days to a week after the MDMA and utilize the aya/haramalas to help repair some of the receptor down regulation from the MDMA.
 
jamie said:
Can someone suggest a good length of time between dosing LSD and MDMA? Im going to a halloween event put on by my favorite festival and they are going all out this year...so I kinda want to do the same. I have good LSD and MDMA I just don't know how long after I eat the LSD is ideal for dosing the MDMA. Im taking 125 mg of MDMA with either half or a full blotter.
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Hey jamie , I had some (about 4) nice flips back in the days, and I always took the MDMA about half an hour after the Acid and it was wonderful every time.

I´ve never taken 4-aco-dmt, but i suggest to take the acid ,because...because it´s a classic 😁 (and you alredy know the hippyflip iirc)

Have a good time and a blast !
 
I ended up taking a lower dose of full spectrum mescaline stuff extracted from peyote, with like 200mg of MDMA.

Ever heard of a 10 hour roll? hehe...

A diamond eyed goddess.

The Librarian.

and Bass Coast family.

:p

<3
 
travsha said:
I dont usually work with MDMA anymore but I used to work with it tons... Had some very deep healing sometimes, though there is something about MDMA that makes it hard to integrate some of the insights sometimes (I'll get to this later). I mostly work with San Pedro now which I think has some similarities, though also a few huge differences.
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Hope I can pick up on this old post - if not, I'll start a new post in a day or two.

I'm very interested in what you say about San Pedro, travsha. Just wondering if the experience is very different from pure mescaline or do you reckon that all the other trace entheogens in the cactus significantly change the experience?

Thanks :)
 
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